Ardhanariswar
I'm back!
how are we mocking other peoples religions? bah!
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Do Atheists get into heaven?
- Thread starter Mr Spinkles
- Start date
Mr Spinkles
Mr
dharveymi-- This thread is most certainly not an attempt to mock anyone. However, it is under the Religious Debates forum, so varying opinions can and should be expressed.
Also, dharveymi is correct that the topic assumes a personal God, but it does not necessarily mean the Christian or Jewish God. Anyone can give their two cents.
I am sure you do not believe in unicorns....but if scientists suddenly discovered the existence of unicorns, would you be "unhappy"? Of course not, because although you think unicorns do not exist, that doesn't mean you actively WANT them to not exist.
Also, dharveymi is correct that the topic assumes a personal God, but it does not necessarily mean the Christian or Jewish God. Anyone can give their two cents.
Let me explain: I do not THINK there is a God/heaven, but that does not mean that I DO NOT WANT there to be a God/heaven. I do not think I will find a million dollars lying on the ground, but if that happened, I wouldn't be disappointed.dharveymi said:
I am sure you do not believe in unicorns....but if scientists suddenly discovered the existence of unicorns, would you be "unhappy"? Of course not, because although you think unicorns do not exist, that doesn't mean you actively WANT them to not exist.
Fair enough! But, considering what the Bible says about heaven, an atheist could not possibly "want" a Christian "heaven" to exist. And, if it did exist certainly no self-respecting atheists would "want" to spend eternity serving and praising a being whose very existence they deny. I would think this would be pure torture for an athiest.
Maybe an atheist would "want" a different kind of heaven, if perchance it exists, but from what I know of atheists, if they change their minds, they are welcome in my part of the city.
Maybe an atheist would "want" a different kind of heaven, if perchance it exists, but from what I know of atheists, if they change their minds, they are welcome in my part of the city.
Mr Spinkles
Mr
I would not want to serve and praise a being whose existence I deny...however, if I died and went to heaven, I would realize that God does in fact exist, and would no longer deny His existence (still, it is difficult to understand why an all powerful being would want its tiny creations to worship it).
There seem to be many misconceptions out there about why atheists believe what they do. I can't speak for anyone else, but my lack of belief in God is not from desire (in other words, I do not disbelieve because I WANT God to not exist). Also, my disbelief does not come from rebelliousness....many try to imply that I secretly do know God exists, but I am mad at Him, and so I deny His existence as a childish way of lashing out against authority. This could not be further from the truth!
The reason I do not believe in your God is the same reason you do not believe in the Egyptian god, Rah. There is no evidence (belief in Rah requires faith, also). Anyway, my point is that if heaven existed (the heaven of any religion), I would definitely want to go. Who in their right mind wouldn't?
There seem to be many misconceptions out there about why atheists believe what they do. I can't speak for anyone else, but my lack of belief in God is not from desire (in other words, I do not disbelieve because I WANT God to not exist). Also, my disbelief does not come from rebelliousness....many try to imply that I secretly do know God exists, but I am mad at Him, and so I deny His existence as a childish way of lashing out against authority. This could not be further from the truth!
The reason I do not believe in your God is the same reason you do not believe in the Egyptian god, Rah. There is no evidence (belief in Rah requires faith, also). Anyway, my point is that if heaven existed (the heaven of any religion), I would definitely want to go. Who in their right mind wouldn't?
I think a better question is: Who would want to go to heaven? Who would like to be in a place were everything and everybody acted as they were meant to act? I mean for the first 10,000 years it might be alright, but what do you do after that? I think to the contrary, you'ld have to be crazy to want to go to heaven. Eternal life is no great prize, ask Satan.
I do not jest. I am quite serious. There is no real reason to want to go to heaven, unless you have faith in the One that runs the place. Death, that's not something to be afraid of; eternal life, now that's something scary, I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy.
I do not jest. I am quite serious. There is no real reason to want to go to heaven, unless you have faith in the One that runs the place. Death, that's not something to be afraid of; eternal life, now that's something scary, I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy.
Ardhanariswar
I'm back!
"Maybe an atheist would "want" a different kind of heaven, if perchance it exists, but from what I know of atheists, if they change their minds, they are welcome in my part of the city."
i think you are kind of confused in what heaven actually is. its a state of mind, were the soul is at peace because of your actions and thoughts in your life. when the soul is at peace, you are happy. and at that constant feeling of fuzzayness, that would be called heaven. the christian heaven, is an actual place. but i think most here would agree with me that heaven is much much more personal that a community.
God is not a commanding force as you think it is. He is not zues who looks down upon you and sends lightning through clouds. He (atman/soul/true being) is within you, and if you open up to that, anyone can be happy and die in a long dream where what you want will happen.
sorta like a lucid dream going yourway, except everything is much happier.
certainly theres the opposite, were theres a hell.
dharveymi - I think your perception of heaven is a little earthly. have you imagined heaven being a place of no time? have you imagined heaven not being a place at all? have you imagined that you are part of somthing happy and fuzzay?
just a thought.
i think you are kind of confused in what heaven actually is. its a state of mind, were the soul is at peace because of your actions and thoughts in your life. when the soul is at peace, you are happy. and at that constant feeling of fuzzayness, that would be called heaven. the christian heaven, is an actual place. but i think most here would agree with me that heaven is much much more personal that a community.
God is not a commanding force as you think it is. He is not zues who looks down upon you and sends lightning through clouds. He (atman/soul/true being) is within you, and if you open up to that, anyone can be happy and die in a long dream where what you want will happen.
sorta like a lucid dream going yourway, except everything is much happier.
certainly theres the opposite, were theres a hell.
dharveymi - I think your perception of heaven is a little earthly. have you imagined heaven being a place of no time? have you imagined heaven not being a place at all? have you imagined that you are part of somthing happy and fuzzay?
just a thought.
Gerani1248,
I understand that you and many others have a very different view of heaven than I do. I base my understanding on the Bible. You may base your believe on something else, I understand that. Please understand that just because you have a strong view about the nature of heaven or God, that view is not therefor either based on reality or necessarily better than my view.
I understand that other than the Word of God, I have no support for my view of heaven, but for me that is enough. You probably have similar evidence for what you believe, but this thread is based on the premise of a PERSONAL God who has the ability to grant or deny access to a PLACE called heaven. You may not believe in this, I don't judge you for your belief, but maybe this thread is not for you.
I understand that you and many others have a very different view of heaven than I do. I base my understanding on the Bible. You may base your believe on something else, I understand that. Please understand that just because you have a strong view about the nature of heaven or God, that view is not therefor either based on reality or necessarily better than my view.
I understand that other than the Word of God, I have no support for my view of heaven, but for me that is enough. You probably have similar evidence for what you believe, but this thread is based on the premise of a PERSONAL God who has the ability to grant or deny access to a PLACE called heaven. You may not believe in this, I don't judge you for your belief, but maybe this thread is not for you.
Runt
Well-Known Member
dharveymi--
This thread is in the debate forum so that a wide variety of opinions can be heard. It could have remained in the Christian forum, but there was too much debate going on, so now it is in the debate forum, where it is open to ALL opinions about Heaven, not just Christian ones. If you cannot accept this, perhaps this thread is not for YOU.
This thread is in the debate forum so that a wide variety of opinions can be heard. It could have remained in the Christian forum, but there was too much debate going on, so now it is in the debate forum, where it is open to ALL opinions about Heaven, not just Christian ones. If you cannot accept this, perhaps this thread is not for YOU.
Ardhanariswar
I'm back!
ehe....sigh...
Moderator,
The original post queried whether God would allow an Athiest into heaven. This presupposes a PERSONAL God, and a LITERAL place called heaven. Call me crazy, but I can't see how someone who believes that God is an impersonal "force" and heaven is a "fuzzy" state of being can answer this question in a meaningful way.
An author with this view could not answer a question such as this because he/she only response would be that the question was meaningless.
An author could suspend their disbelief and answer from a hypothetical standpoint, but this was not the position of the author. My attempt to answer the question illicited disdain from the author and reproach from you, which I find quite confusing.
Maybe you can clear this up for me.
Thanks
The original post queried whether God would allow an Athiest into heaven. This presupposes a PERSONAL God, and a LITERAL place called heaven. Call me crazy, but I can't see how someone who believes that God is an impersonal "force" and heaven is a "fuzzy" state of being can answer this question in a meaningful way.
An author with this view could not answer a question such as this because he/she only response would be that the question was meaningless.
An author could suspend their disbelief and answer from a hypothetical standpoint, but this was not the position of the author. My attempt to answer the question illicited disdain from the author and reproach from you, which I find quite confusing.
Maybe you can clear this up for me.
Thanks
Runt
Well-Known Member
dharveymi--
I'm sorry you feel that way. Nevertheless, Gerani has just as much of a right to respond to this post as you do, especially since the question opens the way for more than just one answer. As Lightkeeper pointed out, even Jesus stressed that Heaven is within, so it is possible that Heaven can be a state of being OR a literal place. Therefore Gerani is as justified in offering his opinions on the matter as you are. I'm not going to give you a monopoly on the interpretation of Heaven, so why don't you defend your own stance instead of arguing whether or not another's stance should be permitted to be shared?
I'm sorry you feel that way. Nevertheless, Gerani has just as much of a right to respond to this post as you do, especially since the question opens the way for more than just one answer. As Lightkeeper pointed out, even Jesus stressed that Heaven is within, so it is possible that Heaven can be a state of being OR a literal place. Therefore Gerani is as justified in offering his opinions on the matter as you are. I'm not going to give you a monopoly on the interpretation of Heaven, so why don't you defend your own stance instead of arguing whether or not another's stance should be permitted to be shared?
Mr Spinkles
Mr
dharveymi-- Are you saying disdain came from me (the author)? If so, I would like to apologize, as I did not intend to convey disdain in my posts.
The question presupposes a personal God, but does not presuppose that heaven is a literal place. God could deny you access to a state of mind, also.
The question presupposes a personal God, but does not presuppose that heaven is a literal place. God could deny you access to a state of mind, also.
Ardhanariswar
I'm back!
dharveymi said:
first of all, its fuzzAY (with an AY). second, i believe God is both personal and impersonal. but God is everywhere, he is not predomninant in more places than others. God is within me. if i find that God, i will be in a supreme state of being, aka heaven.
thats what i believe.
perhaps heaven is like a never ending dream, lucid of course, you control your own reality. hm, i dunno.
Mr. Sprinkles, I was talking about Gerani1248, sorry for the confusion.
I did not take offence, and this isn't a matter of feelings. I am just a little confused.
I am aware of no religion which supposes a personal God but a nonliteral concept of heaven. Imagining that this is true, heaven is a state of mind, but god would deny you access to that part of your mind if he chose?
I am aware of no tradition like this. Based on the way the question was worded, I can see no other option than a personal God and a literal heaven.
Now if God is an impersonal force, and heaven is not a literal place, the question doesn't really make sense. God has no ability to grant or deny access to heaven. Heaven is acheived through meditation, good works, or whatever. God lacks the ability to restrict access to heaven. An atheist could acheive this state of mind without permission from anyone. God does not punish or reward, if one wants to go to heaven, meditation, good works, or whatever would naturally lead to this state of mind.
My beliefs and feelings have nothing to do with it, this just doesn't make sense.
I did not take offence, and this isn't a matter of feelings. I am just a little confused.
I am aware of no religion which supposes a personal God but a nonliteral concept of heaven. Imagining that this is true, heaven is a state of mind, but god would deny you access to that part of your mind if he chose?
I am aware of no tradition like this. Based on the way the question was worded, I can see no other option than a personal God and a literal heaven.
Now if God is an impersonal force, and heaven is not a literal place, the question doesn't really make sense. God has no ability to grant or deny access to heaven. Heaven is acheived through meditation, good works, or whatever. God lacks the ability to restrict access to heaven. An atheist could acheive this state of mind without permission from anyone. God does not punish or reward, if one wants to go to heaven, meditation, good works, or whatever would naturally lead to this state of mind.
My beliefs and feelings have nothing to do with it, this just doesn't make sense.
Ardhanariswar
I'm back!
why would god deny me heaven? we are all open to the invitation. we are the ones who must search for God.
Im sorry, if im not answer your questions properly.
"God does not punish or reward, if one wants to go to heaven, meditation, good works, or whatever would naturally lead to this state of mind. "
i believe in karma. sure, if you practice your dharma of dealing drugs, and you are ignorant and happy doing so, then you can attain heaven.
you can attain heaven even if you are a learned scholar, or a boy with down syndrome.
knowledge doesnt mean anything. you have to address supreme reality and follow any other desired path. its quite easy.
the point is not to complicate things. by doing so it only confuses you.
God transends reality was we know it. hes beyond this material world and our preception of reason.
sorry if i didnt answer your questions properly.
Im sorry, if im not answer your questions properly.
"God does not punish or reward, if one wants to go to heaven, meditation, good works, or whatever would naturally lead to this state of mind. "
i believe in karma. sure, if you practice your dharma of dealing drugs, and you are ignorant and happy doing so, then you can attain heaven.
you can attain heaven even if you are a learned scholar, or a boy with down syndrome.
knowledge doesnt mean anything. you have to address supreme reality and follow any other desired path. its quite easy.
the point is not to complicate things. by doing so it only confuses you.
God transends reality was we know it. hes beyond this material world and our preception of reason.
sorry if i didnt answer your questions properly.