Do Animals Have Religion?

[Quagmire]

Animals don't need religion.

The only reason we do is that we keep insisting that the universe explain itself.

 

[syo]

Animals are pagan.

 

[Luchito Prays]

Sometimes, the movements themselves bring on the meaning, without anyone having to explain it to you.

This is not always true, but just because something is not always true, doesn't mean that it is never true.

I see it this way
An individual uses era plugs and can't listen anything.

Ge goes to a church and see others moving their lips like singing sometimes for the expression of their faces, other times like talking to themselves or to the roof, some close their eyes, some cry. At a moment they appear to dance, they give money to an individual collecting it, and so for.

You can imitate all of that, but you won't know what all of that is about, unless you can read lips, and that involves language.

 

[JustGeorge]

I see it this way
An individual uses era plugs and can't listen anything.

Ge goes to a church and see others moving their lips like singing sometimes for the expression of their faces, other times like talking to themselves or to the roof, some close their eyes, some cry. At a moment they appear to dance, they give money to an individual collecting it, and so for.

You can imitate all of that, but you won't know what all of that is about, unless you can read lips, and that involves language.

I understand what you're saying, and don't disagree that this is often how it works.

However, sometimes some behavior, ritualized or otherwise, doesn't come from an imitation, but is an impromptu idea one has. Sometimes a person(or, in this case, possibly an animal) can begin to find great meaning in it. Sometimes we do something 'just because', and come up with our own meanings or reasons.

 

[Luchito Prays]

Who says imitiation is the only way to communicate through behavior?

I understand what you're saying, and don't disagree that this is often how it works.

However, sometimes some behavior, ritualized or otherwise, doesn't come from an imitation, but is an impromptu idea one has. Sometimes a person(or, in this case, possibly an animal) can begin to find great meaning in it. Sometimes we do something 'just because', and come up with our own meanings or reasons.

Yes, you can be right with that.

The point is that the individual (man or animal) won't be able to communicate to others the discovered or felt meaning without the existence of a language.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

That's a depressing outlook on what constitutes "religion" in your mind.

But you do see my point, though... right?

 

[JustGeorge]

Yes, you can be right with that.

The point is that the individual (man or animal) won't be able to communicate to others the discovered or felt meaning without the existence of a language.

It would be difficult, and perhaps impossible to communicate between species and assure one is correct...

But you've never looked at another person, and with some 'look' or gesture had it known exactly what you meant?

To me, those are the strongest bonding points.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

And in the end these pigeons are still teaching themselves these "rituals" of behaviour to get a return on investment. And will then transmit and teach this method to other pigeons as well. Which in turn is how Religion and Culture spreads.

And those "rituals" will spread regardless of whether they actually improve the pigeons' chances of success.

 

[The Hammer]

But you do see my point, though... right?

Not really no.

Organized buildings, and asking for external support (tithes) aren't landmarks of religious observance.

 

[The Hammer]

And those "rituals" will spread regardless of whether they actually improve the pigeons' chances of success.

It has some benefit, otherwise it wouldn't be passed on.

Like the monkeys in Japan that learned to wash their yams in sea water.

The ritualistic behavior is the important part imo. Not whether or not we as an outside observer think it has a "benefit".

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It has some benefit, otherwise it wouldn't be passed on.

Like the monkeys in Japan that learned to wash their yams in sea water.

The ritualistic behavior is the important part imo. Not whether or not we as an outside observer think it has a "benefit".

In the context of actual religion, having markers of community affiliation that can serve as shibboleths is useful, since they make it easy to distinguish group members from "outsiders."

And there can be a very real benefit for members in participating in any ritual if participation means acceptance, trust and support and abstention means exclusion from the group.

Edit: as for Skinner's pigeons... I've never heard anything that said they actually taught their weird rituals to others. That was an idea that you brought up that I was just entertaining, not accepting.

 

[The Hammer]

In the context of actual religion, having markers of community affiliation that can serve as shibboleths is useful, since they make it easy to distinguish group members from "outsiders."

And there can be a very real benefit for members in participating in any ritual if participation means acceptance, trust and support and abstention means exclusion from the group.

One group having a set of rituals that another doesn't, such as the twirling one particular direction for food in your example, still serve as communal markers. Like the yam example I mentioned. That is a group with a set of communal behaviours (ideology) that distinguish it from others of the same species.

 

[The Hammer]

Animals don't need religion.

The only reason we do is that we keep insisting that the universe explain itself.

I think it's more that we've severed ourselves so far from nature as to be displaced by it. We feel out of touch with the world and reality because we truly are. What seperates us is "civilization".

 

[blü 2]

Well, do they? That's the question I am posing. Do Animals have Religion, of you think they do, tell me why that is.

And if you think it's a load of rubbish, why not let me elicit your opinion?

According to a blog that I will link to, although I'm posting the gist of it here, has this to say about animals and religious reverence.

"Yes, they absolutely do. Let's begin with the elephant, which is one of the most intelligent non-human beings on the planet. The average person probably has no idea that these animals worship the moon, as they have been observed waving branches at the waxing cycle. They also take ritual baths in the moonlight when it's full, and they will bury their dead with food and flowers (a common practice among ancient humans to accompany the deceased into the afterlife). Not only that, but elephants also show additional veneration for the sun and stars. Chimps have been seen dancing at the onset of storms and at water sources, that can only be interpreted as ritualistic or religious behavior, and when a member of their community dies, their funerary customs are nearly identical to that of humans, which include silence, corpse preparation, and visitation. It appears that the more intelligent a species is, the more likely they are to believe in or venerate Higher Powers"

Chris Aldridge's Blog and Website: Animals Do Have Religion

Well, whatever else elephants do or don't do, they don't bury their dead.

Somewhat cover eg bones with vegetation, occasionally, but bury, nah.

 

[The Hammer]

Well, whatever else elephants do or don't do, they don't bury their dead.

Somewhat cover eg bones with vegetation, occasionally, but bury, nah.

That's "bury" in my book.

 

[blü 2]

That's "bury" in my book.

Goodness! In that case I'm relieved not to be in your family.

 

[The Hammer]

Goodness! In that case I'm relieved not to be in your family.

Very lucky indeed.

Most of my family wouldn't even get that much from me.

 

[DNB]

Because we cannot read their minds anymore then most of us can read the minds of another human.

Humans have written a myriad of books on religion, built thousands of temples, altars, shrines and other religious edifices, bore crucifixes, yarmulkes, hijabs, turbans, etc... - no need to read their minds

 

[DNB]

Some animals have rituals, i really don't think they can be considered religion any more than washing the car on Saturday mornings.

...i wish that i got to my car that often, ...according to Hammer, does that make me an atheist?

 

[The Hammer]

Humans have written a myriad of books on religion, built thousands of temples, altars, shrines and other religious edifices, bore crucifixes, yarmulkes, hijabs, turbans, etc... - no need to read their minds

True.

But does that make us any more or less religious than animals?