Do Animals Have Religion?

[VoidCat]

Religion without language, simply won't exist.

So the spoken word is necessary for Spirituality?

Or a building/house of worship?

I disagree because the greatest, and deepest Wisdom of Religion, is well beyond language expression.

My sometimes nonverbal self who worship gods at time without using language

Also my church is the outdoors no need for a building.

 

[Luchito Prays]

My sometimes nonverbal self who worship gods at time without using language

Also my church is the outdoors no need for a building.

I think your nonverbal method works with you as an individual... alone. But have no idea how will you transmit it to others without language.

 

[VoidCat]

I think your nonverbal method works with you as an individual... alone. But have no idea how will you transmit it to others without language.

I have communicated with folk in nonverbal ways when it comes to religion.
It's easy. It's called behavior

Behavior can communicate a lot

You don't realize it cuz you rely on speech and language all the time. I don't. I rely on behavior a lot and I can communicate a lot through it.

 

[JustGeorge]

I have communicated with folk in nonverbal ways when it comes to religion.
It's easy. It's called behavior

Behavior can communicate a lot

You don't realize it cuz you rely on speech and language all the time. I don't. I rely on behavior a lot and I can communicate a lot through it.

When I started attending a temple, there were a few folks who would verbally tell me what to do, but mostly, I did rely on observing behavior.

 

[Luchito Prays]

I have communicated with folk in nonverbal ways when it comes to religion.
It's easy. It's called behavior

Behavior can communicate a lot

That is called imitation.

You are supporting the elephants behavior copied from one generation into another. However, imitation is not synonymous of worship. To become a worship, those movements must have a meaning towards something else, in this case a god or something greater than the individual who perform them.

 

[JustGeorge]

To become a worship, those movements must have a meaning towards something else, in this case a god or something greater than the individual who perform them.

Sometimes, the movements themselves bring on the meaning, without anyone having to explain it to you.

This is not always true, but just because something is not always true, doesn't mean that it is never true.

 

[VoidCat]

That is called imitation.

You are supporting the elephants behavior copied from one generation into another. However, imitation is not synonymous of worship. To become a worship, those movements must have a meaning towards something else, in this case a god or something greater than the individual who perform them.

Who says imitiation is the only way to communicate through behavior?

 

[VoidCat]

@Luchito Prays
I'm not saying animals have religion. I personally don't know. If they do it might not even include worship.

What I am saying is religion doesn't require language. You can communicate a lot without speech. I mean just look up mimes and Tape Face on America's got talent. Or try going without language for a few days. You'll see there are plenty of ways to communicate without writing or saying a word. Imitation is one way but so are there other methods of communicating. You could for instance point at things if you need them, guide the other persons body into doing what you need them to do to get your point across, show them through movement what you want known, engage the other persons senses so they may experience what it is you wish to be known and communicate through it(ants for instance communicate by smell. Ive also used senses to communicate.), showing someone something not for them to imitate but so they understand what you are saying,and of course body language can say a lot too. There is other ways of communicating too.

I have communicated some spiritual experiences to some folk without saying a word. I dont see why animals might not be able to do the same

 

[Guitar's Cry]

I have absolutely no idea how burial rites entail necessarily a religion. Nor how one is able to deduce that elephants worship the sun or the moon. Or how dancing at the onset of a storm must entail a religious ritual.

Sometimes we can only make assumptions based on our experience as humans. We define "religion" in humans based on specific criteria, and where we see similar patterns in other animals (since we are also animals) we can define accordingly.

 

[Secret Chief]

@Luchito Prays
I'm not saying animals have religion. I personally don't know. If they do it might not even include worship.

What I am saying is religion doesn't require language. You can communicate a lot without speech. I mean just look up mimes and Tape Face on America's got talent. Or try going without language for a few days. You'll see there are plenty of ways to communicate without writing or saying a word. Imitation is one way but so are there other methods of communicating. You could for instance point at things if you need them, guide the other persons body into doing what you need them to do to get your point across, show them through movement what you want known, engage the other persons senses so they may experience what it is you wish to be known and communicate through it(ants for instance communicate by smell. Ive also used senses to communicate.), showing someone something not for them to imitate but so they understand what you are saying,and of course body language can say a lot too. There is other ways of communicating too.

I have communicated some spiritual experiences to some folk without saying a word. I dont see why animals might not be able to do the same

I'm convinced. Have a nonverbal frubal.

 

[VoidCat]

I'm convinced. Have a nonverbal frubal.

I feel folk underestimate animals because folk rely so heavily on language. Take that away tho and you realize there's other ways of going about communication.

There's so much you can say without speaking. I think abled bodied folk sometimes rely on speech too much at times when other things could get your point across just as well and sometimes even better then speech.

 

[VoidCat]

Sometimes we can only make assumptions based on our experience as humans. We define "religion" in humans based on specific criteria, and where we see similar patterns in other animals (since we are also animals) we can define accordingly.

This I agree with. And if nonhuman animals do have religion which they might not there would be differences I'm sure from humans I would think. Similarities but also differences. I'm not sure what those might be but other animals arent humans. Thus you can't expect them to act like humans.

One thing is for certian- nonhuman animals are displaying these behaviors for a reason. We humans might not know why and can only draw from what we know of ourselves and of other animals but they do display them for a reason. And somehow they've communicated to each other that reason be it through behavior, imitation, experience or other means else the other animals in their species wouldn't be engaging in such behavior. They might even have communicated it through language as some animals such as dolphins have their own language. And some chimps know sign language.

Non human animals aren't stupid. They do things for a reason. Even if its just instinct there's still a reason. You just have to find it.

 

[VoidCat]

This I agree with. And if nonhuman animals do have religion which they might not there would be differences I'm sure from humans I would think. Similarities but also differences. I'm not sure what those might be but other animals arent humans. Thus you can't expect them to act like humans.

One thing is for certian- nonhuman animals are displaying these behaviors for a reason. We humans might not know why and can only draw from what we know of ourselves and of other animals but they do display them for a reason. And somehow they've communicated to each other that reason be it through behavior, imitation, experience or other means else the other animals in their species wouldn't be engaging in such behavior. They might even have communicated it through language as some animals such as dolphins have their own language. And some chimps know sign language.

Non human animals aren't stupid. They do things for a reason. Even if its just instinct there's still a reason. You just have to find it.

@Guitar's Cry
Here's a video of a dog communicating through aac

It's unknown how much dogs can understand language but they can understand quite a bit
I point this out cuz the video shows nonhuman animals are smarter then we give credit

 

[The Hammer]

That is called imitation.

That's how all Culture is transmitted. Most of what you know culturally was not "told or taught" to you. It was learned through observation and mimicry.

 

[Secret Chief]

@Guitar's Cry
Here's a video of a dog communicating through aac

It's unknown how much dogs can understand language but they can understand quite a bit
I point this out cuz the video shows nonhuman animals are smarter then we give credit

As a result of this thread I've been reading about cat and dog communication with humans. Apparently, dogs can/do take into account that humans are not the same as them and adjust their communication with humans accordingly. Cats on the other hand can't (or just refuse to!) take this into account and so given we are just large, bald cats to them, they don't adjust their communication with humans. Make of that what you will.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Well, do they? That's the question I am posing. Do Animals have Religion, of you think they do, tell me why that is.

And if you think it's a load of rubbish, why not let me elicit your opinion?

According to a blog that I will link to, although I'm posting the gist of it here, has this to say about animals and religious reverence.

"Yes, they absolutely do. Let's begin with the elephant, which is one of the most intelligent non-human beings on the planet. The average person probably has no idea that these animals worship the moon, as they have been observed waving branches at the waxing cycle. They also take ritual baths in the moonlight when it's full, and they will bury their dead with food and flowers (a common practice among ancient humans to accompany the deceased into the afterlife). Not only that, but elephants also show additional veneration for the sun and stars. Chimps have been seen dancing at the onset of storms and at water sources, that can only be interpreted as ritualistic or religious behavior, and when a member of their community dies, their funerary customs are nearly identical to that of humans, which include silence, corpse preparation, and visitation. It appears that the more intelligent a species is, the more likely they are to believe in or venerate Higher Powers"

Chris Aldridge's Blog and Website: Animals Do Have Religion

Have they found any unproductive elephants/squirrels/whatever that live off the "tithes" of the other members of their group?

That would be a pretty a major point in favour of them having religion.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Well, do they? That's the question I am posing. Do Animals have Religion, of you think they do, tell me why that is.

And if you think it's a load of rubbish, why not let me elicit your opinion?

According to a blog that I will link to, although I'm posting the gist of it here, has this to say about animals and religious reverence.

"Yes, they absolutely do. Let's begin with the elephant, which is one of the most intelligent non-human beings on the planet. The average person probably has no idea that these animals worship the moon, as they have been observed waving branches at the waxing cycle. They also take ritual baths in the moonlight when it's full, and they will bury their dead with food and flowers (a common practice among ancient humans to accompany the deceased into the afterlife). Not only that, but elephants also show additional veneration for the sun and stars. Chimps have been seen dancing at the onset of storms and at water sources, that can only be interpreted as ritualistic or religious behavior, and when a member of their community dies, their funerary customs are nearly identical to that of humans, which include silence, corpse preparation, and visitation. It appears that the more intelligent a species is, the more likely they are to believe in or venerate Higher Powers"

Chris Aldridge's Blog and Website: Animals Do Have Religion

As B.F. Skinner observed, when you teach pigeons that some stimulus is associated with food, they can learn and adapt. For instance, if the food dispenser will only work when a light is on, they'll quickly learn to wait until the light is on to press the bar to get their food.

OTOH, when you give the pigeons ambiguous, inconsistent stimuli, things get... weird. The pigeons will start doing elaborate rituals as they try to infer the rules of the "game":

Last time I got food, the light was on and I approached from the left. This time, the light was on and I approached from the right, but there was no food. I'd better only approach the feeder from the left from now on.

Oh - this time, the light was on and I approached from the left, but there was no food. I'd better add a little twirl to see if that helps.

Before too long, the pigeons are doing elaborate rituals, all aimed at getting the capricious feeder they depend on to do as they want, and all the while trying to infer a pattern when there's no pattern there.

I'd say that this sort of behaviour could reasonably count as "religion," but I'm not sure the religious participants in this thread would agree.

 

[Secret Chief]

As B.F. Skinner observed, when you teach pigeons that some stimulus is associated with food, they can learn and adapt. For instance, if the food dispenser will only work when a light is on, they'll quickly learn to wait until the light is on to press the bar to get their food.

OTOH, when you give the pigeons ambiguous, inconsistent stimuli, things get... weird. The pigeons will start doing elaborate rituals as they try to infer the rules of the "game":

Last time I got food, the light was on and I approached from the left. This time, the light was on and I approached from the right, but there was no food. I'd better only approach the feeder from the left from now on.

Oh - this time, the light was on and I approached from the left, but there was no food. I'd better add a little twirl to see if that helps.

Before too long, the pigeons are doing elaborate rituals, all aimed at getting the capricious feeder they depend on to do as they want, and all the while trying to infer a pattern when there's no pattern there.

I'd say that this sort of behaviour could reasonably count as "religion," but I'm not sure the religious participants in this thread would agree.

As I recall, this type of behaviour (superstitious) varies across species tested. Rats are less prone to superstitious behaviour than humans.
Once we think we've worked something out we stick to it come hell or high water!

 

[The Hammer]

Have they found any unproductive elephants/squirrels/whatever that live off the "tithes" of the other members of their group?

That would be a pretty a major point in favour of them having religion.

That's a depressing outlook on what constitutes "religion" in your mind.

 

[The Hammer]

As B.F. Skinner observed, when you teach pigeons that some stimulus is associated with food, they can learn and adapt. For instance, if the food dispenser will only work when a light is on, they'll quickly learn to wait until the light is on to press the bar to get their food.

OTOH, when you give the pigeons ambiguous, inconsistent stimuli, things get... weird. The pigeons will start doing elaborate rituals as they try to infer the rules of the "game":

Last time I got food, the light was on and I approached from the left. This time, the light was on and I approached from the right, but there was no food. I'd better only approach the feeder from the left from now on.

Oh - this time, the light was on and I approached from the left, but there was no food. I'd better add a little twirl to see if that helps.

Before too long, the pigeons are doing elaborate rituals, all aimed at getting the capricious feeder they depend on to do as they want, and all the while trying to infer a pattern when there's no pattern there.

I'd say that this sort of behaviour could reasonably count as "religion," but I'm not sure the religious participants in this thread would agree.

And in the end these pigeons are still teaching themselves these "rituals" of behaviour to get a return on investment. And will then transmit and teach this method to other pigeons as well. Which in turn is how Religion and Culture spreads.