Do all paths lead to God? No is the answer

[sojourner]

I looked for other alternatives. You've only mentioned that you disagree that jesus sacrifice comes by compassion, what I said was Substitutionary Atonement, and no other alternatives to what you disagree with.

This post context wasn't mentioned in your former posts. So, I have other questions (I know this is theology-I agree; but I'm not familiar with the jargon to speak of it as such).

I never saw it as an either or scenario.

"We can either look at the sacrifice as the act that removes sin, or as an act that displays a level of prevailing love."

The act that removes sin is the act that prevails love. When you sacrifice yourself (say a mother) for her child its an act of sacrifice (her dying) and an act of love (giving her own life because she loves her child). I understand it as a combination not an either/or.

I'm not christian so I don't have a theological viewpoint, just what I've learned and experience in the Church. Outside of conversation, I really don't think of it near at all to form a "personal" theological viewpoint.

From how I learned it, if a christian doesn't believe in jesus, his or her sin puts that her at a distance between her and the creator. Sin is the wall between the christian and her creator. Since she can't get rid of sin on her own, and they can't be align with god like jesus, they need jesus to be a scapegoat (like an animal in the OT) to their sin so they are forgiven just as the Jews gave the animal to god so god would forgive them. Same concept, just in this case it's a human not an animal.

As for hell, anger, and all of that, I know nothing about that. I wasn't raised in a christian household to where hellfire and any of that nonsense was taught.

Do I think it necessary? Depends on the christian. I only speak from what I've experienced in the Church and learned reading the bible. I see no love in a stranger I have never met in person sacrificing himself for me. It's just not how I see reality.

But in my understanding, disregarding hell and anger, it just means jesus is the scapegoat for christian's sins.

But you haven't told me other ways to see it just told me that this is just one way to do so.

See #152. Why does Jesus “need” to be a scapegoat? What does this accomplish? Why does God “need” a sacrifice in order to be able to forgive? God has already forgiven us.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

It wasn’t an act of appeasement of an angry God. It was an act of love that saves us for God, not from hell.

I was thinking why anger and hell was involved. I know it's in the theology you mentioned, but in the context of my question it wasn't included.

See #152. Why does Jesus “need” to be a scapegoat? What does this accomplish? Why does God “need” a sacrifice in order to be able to forgive? God has already forgiven us.

Same as the OT with the animal. The only difference is that its a human. "Lamb" of god.

I think it's because they feel everyone has a sinful nature. God can forgive you "if you believe" he does. As for the sacrifice, they say god has forgiven "by the sacrifice."

He used jesus to forgive just as he told the jews that they need a clean animal to get his forgiveness. Same concept. That's why the priest lifts up the lamb of god to god in order through it, the souls of Mass would be forgiven. Without christ (forgiveness), there is no love in it-that's the idea.

I haven't heard any other way unless its universalism where all are saved and go to heaven regardless their sins. Some christians believe they don't have inherited sin, but then they need christ. So, there is so many ideas to this. I'm just going off what I know. Whether it's right or wrong, I can't say cause it's not what I believe to make any personal conclusion either way.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

But any time you engage in this sort of postulation you’re doing theology. And you have stated the system called “Substitutionary Atonement.” Implied in that is that God is angry/jealous, if a sacrifice is required in order to remove sin.

But yes, other constructs see the sacrifice as an act illustrating love. But in those constructs, the sacrifice is not necessary in order to expiate the sin.

What other constructs would you say is better?

Most people I know say sacrifice is an act of love that gif gave by grace not one to hide from is anger. They feel good loves all and the christian chooses to die not God. Some denomi focus on gifts anger and justice bit I've came across sacrifice as something someone chooses by gods grace not ideally because of fear of punishment and gifs anger.

I'm not sure of other ways to see it. Even though it's theology, my language is pretty some in talking about it. The subject is theology but I'm not speaking on that jargon.

 

[Praise Jah]

God knew who we are when God created us. We are the imago dei.

Your examples are all from the Hebrew texts. The Incarnation changed all that.

All scripture is inspired of God (2 Timothy 3:16-17) and Jesus' ransom sacrifice does not nullify the prophecies that are also found in the Hebrew scriptures, but fullfills them. (1 Thessalonians 5:20-24) (2 Thessalonians 1:7-9)

 

[Praise Jah]

Why would you call the world "wicked"? Yes, there is too much wicked in the world, no doubt, but there's also a lot of love.

Because the world lies in the power of the wicked one, Satan. (1 John 5:19)

 

[metis]

Because the world lies in the power of the wicked one, Satan. (1 John 5:19)

Maybe in your world. If Satan is in complete control, then that's polytheism as it would posit two deities, each with their own jurisdiction.

BTW, hyperbole is often used in Jewish literature, then and now.

 

[Praise Jah]

Maybe in your world. If Satan is in complete control, then that's polytheism as it would posit two deities, each with their own jurisdiction.

BTW, hyperbole is often used in Jewish literature, then and now.

1 John 5:19 is not hyperbole.

Satan has a grip on all mankind through sin. (Romans 5:12) Satan's influence in this world evident. (Galatians 5:19-21) (1 Corinthians 6:9-10) (2 Timothy 3:1-5) (Ephesians 2:2)

But Satan has been judged and will be cast out. Satan has no hold on Almighty God Jehovah or the one whom he sent, Jesus Christ. (John 14:30) (John 12:31) (John 16:33) (Romans 5:18-19)

 

[metis]

↑
1 John 5:19 is not hyperbole.

Satan has a grip on all mankind through sin. (Romans 5:12) Satan's influence in this world evident. (Galatians 5:19-21) (1 Corinthians 6:9-10) (2 Timothy 3:1-5) (Ephesians 2:2)

But Satan has been judged and will be cast out. Satan has no hold on Almighty God Jehovah or the one whom he sent, Jesus Christ. (John 14:30) (John 12:31) (John 16:33) (Romans 5:18-19)
I don't believe in polytheism, so believe in what deities you choose to believe in I guess.

What you fail to realize is that there's a difference between the words "world" and "worldly", and it's the latter that we must avoid as Christians.

worldly [definition]: of or concerned with material values or ordinary life rather than a spiritual existence.

 

[Praise Jah]

↑
1 John 5:19 is not hyperbole.

Satan has a grip on all mankind through sin. (Romans 5:12) Satan's influence in this world evident. (Galatians 5:19-21) (1 Corinthians 6:9-10) (2 Timothy 3:1-5) (Ephesians 2:2)

But Satan has been judged and will be cast out. Satan has no hold on Almighty God Jehovah or the one whom he sent, Jesus Christ. (John 14:30) (John 12:31) (John 16:33) (Romans 5:18-19)
I don't believe in polytheism, so believe in what deities you choose to believe in I guess.

What you fail to realize is that there's a difference between the words "world" and "worldly", and it's the latter that we must avoid as Christians.

worldly [definition]: of or concerned with material values or ordinary life rather than a spiritual existence.

The Bible teaches the worship of only one God.

Jehovah is the Almighty God, the only true God, the Creator. As such, he requires exclusive devotion sharing his glory with no one. (Isaiah 42:8) (Exodus 34:14) (Revelation 4:11)

Jesus rendered exclusive devotion and worship to his Father, Jehovah, and said we too must do the same. (Matthew 22:37) (Luke 4:8)

The Bible does make mention of other gods. (1 Corinthians 8:5-6) A person could even let their own self interest, their belly, be their god. (Philippians 3:19)

Satan is the god of this system of things. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4) We are warned to stop letting ourselves be molded by this system of things, to stop being worldly, because it reflects Satan's attitude and thinking and not God's. (Romans 12:2) (Ephesians 2:1-2)

 

[metis]

The Bible teaches the worship of only one God.

Jehovah is the Almighty God, the only true God, the Creator. As such, he requires exclusive devotion sharing his glory with no one. (Isaiah 42:8) (Exodus 34:14) (Revelation 4:11)

Jesus rendered exclusive devotion and worship to his Father, Jehovah, and said we too must do the same. (Matthew 22:37) (Luke 4:8)

The Bible does make mention of other gods. (1 Corinthians 8:5-6) A person could even let their own self interest, their belly, be their god. (Philippians 3:19)

I fully agree with you here.

(2 Corinthians 4:3-4) We are warned to stop letting ourselves be molded by this system of things, to stop being worldly, because it reflects Satan's attitude and thinking and not God's. (Romans 12:2) (Ephesians 2:1-2)

And since you finally have used the word "worldly" instead of "world", I also agree with you here.

 

[Praise Jah]

I fully agree with you here.

And since you finally have used the word "worldly" instead of "world", I also agree with you here.

If you'd like, will you please share why you believe 1 John 5:19 is only hyperbole? Because the Bible's identification of Satan as the temporary ruler of this world in no way undermines the fact that Jehovah is the Sovereign of the universe by reason of his Creatorship, his Godship, and his supremacy as the Almighty whose will nobody can stop. (Isaiah 55:10-11)

 

[metis]

If you'd like, will you please share why you believe 1 John 5:19 is only hyperbole?

Because of the use of the word "all". What we often see being used in the NT are what's called "dualisms", which not only was a Jewish literary tactic but also a Greek one, such as with Paul's use of "light" and "darkness" or his saying that we must all obey all authority because that's from God? Are you will to obey all authority, including if it's governmental? See what I mean.

Because the Bible's identification of Satan as the temporary ruler of this world in no way undermines the fact that Jehovah is the Sovereign of the universe by reason of his Creatorship, his Godship, and his supremacy as the Almighty whose will nobody can stop. (Isaiah 55:10-11)

Again, I am not polytheistic. Satan works only under God's sovereignty, thus is simply not another god.

Also, to state that the whole world is controlled by Satan ignores the very simple fact that there are a lot of good people doing a lot of good things in this world, and since when is good "evil"? Are you evil? Is most everything you do "evil"?

 

[Praise Jah]

Because of the use of the word "all". What we often see being used in the NT are what's called "dualisms", which not only was a Jewish literary tactic but also a Greek one, such as with Paul's use of "light" and "darkness" or his saying that we must all obey all authority because that's from God? Are you will to obey all authority, including if it's governmental? See what I mean.

Again, I am not polytheistic. Satan works only under God's sovereignty, thus is simply not another god.

Also, to state that the whole world is controlled by Satan ignores the very simple fact that there are a lot of good people doing a lot of good things in this world, and since when is good "evil"? Are you evil? Is most everything you do "evil"?

Jehovah is the one and only Almighty God. He alone is to be worshipped.

Any other mention of gods in the Bible are not Jehovah, the Almighty God, and therefore not to be worshiped. (Psalm 82:1) (Psalm 82:6) (John 10:34-35) (1 Corinthians 8:5)

Satan, Jehovah's chief Adversary, is referred to as the god of this system of things who is misleading the entire inhabited earth. (2 Corinthians 4:4) (Revelation 12:9)

Satan's control over the present system of things including the governments was indicated when he offered Jesus all the kingdoms of the world in exchange for an act of worship. (Matthew 4:8-9)

Until Jehovah's Kingdom takes over the rulership of this earth, Christians are commanded to be in subjection to the secular authorities who God is temporarily allowing to exist. (Romans 13:1) This subjection is only relative. When a secular authority asks us to disobey Jehovah God, we obey God as ruler rather than men. (Acts 5:29)

Yes, there are a lot of good people who do good things, but good people who do good things cannot ignore the command to worship Jehovah God. (Matthew 22:36-38)

 

[metis]

Yes, there are a lot of good people who do good things, but good people who do good things cannot ignore the command to worship Jehovah God. (Matthew 22:36-38)

As millions, and probably billions, do.

Also, all "government" is is group decision-making, and your Governing Body is a type of "government" because it makes decisions. Plus. I don't think anyone likely worships government, so you're really barking up the wrong tree. And, locally, one can have some respect for government, as Paul commanded, and yet still worship God.