"DNA Analysis of Consecrated Sacramental Bread Refutes Catholic Transubstantiation Claim"

[Nakosis]

In another thread " Should YouTube take down Catholic videos desecrating the Eucharist? The church demands them gone."" I became interested in the nature of the Eucharist, principally when and how it becomes the actual body of Christ---as it turns out, this happens when it's consecrated. While looking into the matter I came across the following information.

I'm not posting this as an attack on or criticism of Catholic beliefs, but simply to see what Catholics and others think of such findings.

"INTRODUCTION

With 1.2 billion members worldwide, the Roman Catholic Church exerts its influence on a significant portion of the world population. One of the important doctrines of Catholicism affirms that the wheat wafer (also called hostia, host or sacramental bread) used in the sacrament of Eucharist or Holy Communion becomes in actual reality the body of Jesus Christ, in a process called transubstantiation. The doctrine of transubstantiation was officially defined during the council of Trent in 1551 CE and holds that the consecration that takes place during Eucharist literally changes the substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ. Understandably, the claim has been viewed with skepticism among non-Catholics, but also among increasing numbers of Catholics who are being disillusioned with the Church's disconnect with today's scientific understanding and its insistence on upholding irrational dogmas. We propose to test the credibility of the transubstantiation dogma by analyzing the substance of consecrated sacramental bread. Host samples collected in Catholic churches during communion were tested for the presence of wheat and human DNA using PCR, and compared to human and wheat controls.

Samples

Consecrated hosts were collected during communion in 5 different Catholic churches in the United States and Canada and immediately placed into clean plastic bags to avoid contamination. A sample of cultured HEK-293 cells was used as the human control. Unconsecrated altar bread purchased from a church supply store was used as the wheat control.

DNA isolation

Human DNA was extracted from the control human cells using the GeneJet genomic DNA purification kit (Thermo Scientific, USA) according to the manufacturer's instructions.

Isolation of DNA from the altar bread samples (both consecrated and unconsecrated) was performed as follows. Bread fragments were placed into 2 ml microcentrifuge tubes into which 1.3 ml of DNA extraction solution (150 mM NaCl, 0.05 N NaOH, 2.5 mM EDTA, 0.25% SDS) was added. Tubes were then incubated at 65°C while being shaken at 900 RPM for 20 minutes. The tubes were then centrifuged at 21000 g for 5 minutes and 200 µl of supernatant was transferred to fresh tubes. DNA was purified from the supernatant samples using DNA Clean & Concentrator kit (Zymo Research, USA) according to the manufacturer's instructions.
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CONCLUSIONS

This study falsifies the claim that a religious ritual performed by a priest can actually change the substance of a bread wafer into the substance of a human body. It is by no means an attack on religion, but rather a small step in the refutation of superstition and irrational beliefs, an important role of science, at least since the age of Enlightenment. Religions can have important social benefits, and even more so when they evolve with scientific knowledge and update their claims and beliefs accordingly. We hope that this study will encourage others to use the tools of science to test other religious claims, thus contributing to bring enlightenment to their fellow human beings who still live under the influence of dogmatic religious doctrines.
source and more

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Wow... That folks went to this extent to see if there was any truth to a religious ritual.

What's important in a ritual is not the true essence of the objects use in the ritual but the state of mind of the practitioner created by the ritual.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Wow... That folks went to this extent to see if there was any truth to a religious ritual.

What's important in a ritual is not the true essence of the objects use in the ritual but the state of mind of the practitioner created by the ritual.

To be serious for a moment there is the tendency of the 'true believer' to take things to far. Therefore the claim of transubstantiation. If the only claim was that it brought one closer to Jesus I don't think that there would be any controversy.

 

[robocop (actually)]

But irrelevant to the Catholic claim of Transubstantiation.

OK then your religion holds up with substance over accident, except to people who reject it anyway.

 

[Rough Beast Sloucher]

If your car has its engine replaced, it's regarded as a new/different car (based on the engine).

Nope., still my car.

OK then your religion holds up with substance over accident, except to people who reject it anyway.

Not my religion anymore, simply one I know very well. And yes, Catholic theology sides with Aristotle on this matter. The DNA study would only be relevant to those who reject transubstantiation to begin with. Since the researchers did not bother to research the meaning of the words used by Catholics, meanings that date back to Aristotle, the whole study becomes pointless except as an anti-Catholic tool.

 

[bobhikes]

What data is needed? The wafer doesn't become a circle of flesh at any point during the mass.

If you follow the catholic church it has at least once. From wilkepedia.

The rarest reported type of Eucharistic miracle is where the Eucharist becomes human flesh as in the miracle of Lanciano which some Catholics believe occurred at Lanciano, Italy, in the 8th century A.D. In fact, Lanciano is only one of the reported cases of Eucharistic miracles where the host has been transformed into human flesh

 

[Shadow Wolf]

They needed a study to show that it doesn't actually happen?

 

[Rough Beast Sloucher]

They needed a study to show that it doesn't actually happen?

Or to prove that the Catholic claim is correct, that the accidents (measurable properties) do not change.

 

[Subduction Zone]

They needed a study to show that it doesn't actually happen?

Yes, rather silly. Ergo my silly arguments. Yet there are Catholics that take the claim very very seriously. Strangely enough most of them reject the claim of ritualistic cannibalism. They need to learn that they can't have it both ways.

 

[Father Heathen]

 

[Shiranui117]

Yeah, as I understand it, it's strictly a Catholic and Orthodox thing.

.

Not even an Orthodox thing, we just say "the Eucharist is truly the Body and Blood of Christ". When we get asked how this is, we say "God only knows". We leave it to the realm of mystery. Though using Aristotelian or Platonic metaphysics does seem to be a pretty attractive option. But otherwise we're the exact same.

 

[Enoch07]

As a symbolic gesture the Eucharist has an extremely powerful and beautiful message. I approve of it 100% as a symbolic gesture.

Whether or not it's symbolic seems to be in contention.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

as in the miracle of Lanciano which some Catholics believe occurred at Lanciano, Italy, in the 8th century A.D. In fact, Lanciano is only one of the reported cases of Eucharistic miracles where the host has been transformed into human flesh

Key word emphasized. I've also heard tales of saints turning into birds when executed. Should I pull some myths from elsewhere in the 8th Century as evidence of occurence?

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

If someone was to announce a new religion where members are going to eat human flesh, they would be called crazy. But the RCC has been brainwashing people for 2000 years so they accept the idea. Did you ever draw a map and say "this X is the gas station on Main Street"? Well of course you mean the X REPRESENTS the gas station for purposes of the map. When Jesus said the bread was His body He meant it represaents Hiss body for purposes of the ceremony.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Nope., still my car.

To you, perhaps. But to a mechanic or car salesman, it's a new car.

 

[Rough Beast Sloucher]

To you, perhaps. But to a mechanic or car salesman, it's a new car.

DME/EWS recoding is effectively a name change. It is still my car. The VIN under the windshield is still the same as are all the dents, carwash resistant bird dropping stains,. Best of Queen cassette stuck under the front seat etc. The accidents (no pun intended) may change but the substance is still there.

 

[metis]

John [48]6: I am the bread of life.
[49] Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died.
[50] This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat of it and not die.
[51] I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh."
[52] The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"
[53] So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you;
[54] he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
[55] For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
[56] He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.
[57] As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me.
[58] This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever."

There were long debates as to how to interpret these words, especially since they cannot be taken at the literal level. But how about the issue of "essence", as Plato suggested on the issue of "substance"?

IOW, it's real substance may not be changed, but its "essence" could hypothetically be. The early church was highly influenced by Greek thought, including some of it's philosophers, especially Aristotle.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

DME/EWS recoding is effectively a name change. It is still my car. The VIN under the windshield is still the same as are all the dents, carwash resistant bird dropping stains,. Best of Queen cassette stuck under the front seat etc. The accidents (no pun intended) may change but the substance is still there.

And yet it has a new mileage, new MPG, etc. The value would increase, as the things you mention as making it "it" are superficial.

If I went through a process and recreated your car, piece by piece, every dent and bird mark, in the very end - with all new parts - would it still be your car?

 

[Jumi]

What if Jesus DNA is almost identical to wheat DNA?

That would be bad news to coeliacs...

 

[Jumi]

In another thread " Should YouTube take down Catholic videos desecrating the Eucharist? The church demands them gone."" I became interested in the nature of the Eucharist, principally when and how it becomes the actual body of Christ---as it turns out, this happens when it's consecrated. While looking into the matter I came across the following information.

The doctrines are that although it is physically still bread, it's also flesh. For some protestants, they believe in something being around the bread, but the bread is still the same... though I doubt that any believing priest would let anyone use a consecrated host for DNA analysis or chemical composition as not using it for what it was meant to be.

 

[Rough Beast Sloucher]

And yet it has a new mileage, new MPG, etc. The value would increase, as the things you mention as making it "it" are superficial.

If I went through a process and recreated your car, piece by piece, every dent and bird mark, in the very end - with all new parts - would it still be your car?

Of course it would still be my car, Would I somewhere along the line stop driving it because some percentage of parts have been replaced? This is exactly the substance vs accidents issue. If something is no longer that something if any or many accidents changed, then there is nothing that is something because there is not anything that is the same from moment to moment. I will stick with driving my car as long as it still runs even if it has a pink door from the junkyard. The only consistent alternative is to say that there is really no such thing as my car because it is constantly in flux. To concentrate solely on accidents is self defeating since it eliminates being able to talk coherently about what it is that has those accidents.