• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Diversity of Bahá’í views about gays, homosexuality, theocracy, God and other topics

Jim

Jim

Nets of Wonder
Sometimes I see people calling some view “the Baha’i view,” or even “the official Baha’i view.” That might mean different things to different people, and in different contexts. Sometimes it might be something that the Baha’i Universal House of Justice has written. Sometimes it might be what a person thinks the members of that House of Justice really think, even if that contradicts what it has actually said. Sometimes it might be something that’s written in some Baha’i publication or on some Baha’i Web page. Sometimes it might be what some people denouncing the Baha’i Faith are calling “the official Baha’i view,” even if there aren’t any Baha’is or Baha’i institutions saying that.

I think that views about gays; homosexuality; scholarship; rights and freedoms; theocracy; God; religion; infallibility of religious scriptures and institutions; other economic, social, political and religious issues; and all other topics, vary as widely among Baha’is as they do in all the rest of society, all over the world. I don’t see anything in any Baha’is scriptures or in any statements from Baha’i institutions, that authorizes any person who is alive today, or any current or future Baha’i institution, to say that one view is right and the others are wrong. In fact I see Baha’i scriptures and the Universal House of Justice saying just the opposite: that there is not, and never will be for at least another 832 years, any person or institution who has that authority.

In this thread I want to say what some of my views are, and invite other Baha’is to say what their views are if they want to. If anyone, Baha’i or not, calls some view “the official Baha’i view,” I hope you’ll specify what you mean by that, and link to the source.

(edited to add the following)

I want to try to clarify my purpose in this thread. It's different from when I've started discussions like this before. Sometimes before, it was to promote more free and open discussion of these issues between Baha'is. This time it's for other people to get a glimpse of how widely the views of Baha'is diverge from each other on all topics, as much as they do in all the rest of society all over the world. I won't be trying to change anyone's mind about anything. I'm hoping to see posts here from Baha'is with views opposed to mine, the farther from mine the better. Only, if you call your view "the official Baha'i view," or otherwise put some stamp of authority on it, I hope you'll specify what you mean by that, and link or give a reference to the source.

I'll be posting a list of topics that I might want to discuss. Saying that I won't be trying to change anyone's mind doesn't mean that I won't ask or answer questions, or respond to comments. I will, but only for the purpose of better understanding each other's views.

Here are some topics I might want to discuss:
  • Gays, homosexuality and marriage
  • Scholarship
  • Rights and freedoms
  • Theocracy
  • God, religion and religions
  • Infallibility of religious scriptures and institutions
  • Authenticity, role and functions of the House of Justice
  • Eligibility of women for membership on the House of Justice
  • Possibility of Guardians after Shoghi Effendi
  • What the House of Justice is promoting
  • Disagreements with the House of Justice
  • Baha’i Social issues
  • Public discussion of Baha’i social issues and disagreements between Baha’is
  • Visions, goals and priorities for the Baha’i community
  • Involvement in politics
  • Christian doctrines
  • Relationship to other religions
  • Appropriation of other religions
  • Baha’i history
  • Responding to campaigns of denunciation against the Baha’i Faith
  • Liberal/conservative divide
  • Bandwagons and personality cults
  • Ruhi Courses
  • Removals from the membership
  • Shunning
  • Review policy
 
Last edited:
TransmutingSoul

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Jim said:
Sometimes I see people calling some view “the Baha’i view,” or even “the official Baha’i view.” That might mean different things to different people, and in different contexts. Sometimes it might be something that the Baha’i Universal House of Justice has written. Sometimes it might be what a person thinks the members of that House of Justice really think, even if that contradicts what it has actually said. Sometimes it might be something that’s written in some Baha’i publication or on some Baha’i Web page. Sometimes it might be what some people denouncing the Baha’i Faith are calling “the official Baha’i view,” even if there aren’t any Baha’is or Baha’i institutions saying that.

I think that views about gays; homosexuality; scholarship; rights and freedoms; theocracy; God; religion; infallibility of religious scriptures and institutions; other economic, social, political and religious issues; and all other topics, vary as widely among Baha’is as they do in all the rest of society, all over the world. I don’t see anything in any Baha’is scriptures or in any statements from Baha’i institutions, that authorizes any person who is alive today, or any current or future Baha’i institution, to say that one view is right and the others are wrong. In fact I see Baha’i scriptures and the Universal House of Justice saying just the opposite: that there is not, and never will be for at least another 832 years, any person or institution who has that authority.

In this thread I want to say what some of my views are, and invite other Baha’is to say what their views are if they want to. If anyone, Baha’i or not, calls some view “the official Baha’i view,” I hope you’ll specify what you mean by that, and link to the source.
Click to expand...

Well the official Baha'i View would be what Baha'u'llah wrote and what Abdul'Baha and Shoghi Effendi have offered in interpretation of. From there it is what the Universal House of Justice has published on the subject.

It would start with this book and its appendix;

The Kitáb-i-Aqdas | Bahá’í Reference Library

Whatever has not been explained in this line of Authority would then become our view upon the subject.

This is why I like to quote from those sources and in that way everyone can make up their own mind. When no quote is offered and one gives a view of what is said, that again is just a personal view.

There are many times we can offer thought on behalf of all Baha'i. Like Baha'i beleive in 'One God'. These are core clear teachings.

Grey areas are like getting involved in politics in any way shape or form. There are ok to do's and definite dont's.

Regards Tony
 
Dawnofhope

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
Jim said:
Sometimes I see people calling some view “the Baha’i view,” or even “the official Baha’i view.” That might mean different things to different people, and in different contexts. Sometimes it might be something that the Baha’i Universal House of Justice has written. Sometimes it might be what a person thinks the members of that House of Justice really think, even if that contradicts what it has actually said. Sometimes it might be something that’s written in some Baha’i publication or on some Baha’i Web page. Sometimes it might be what some people denouncing the Baha’i Faith are calling “the official Baha’i view,” even if there aren’t any Baha’is or Baha’i institutions saying that.

I think that views about gays; homosexuality; scholarship; rights and freedoms; theocracy; God; religion; infallibility of religious scriptures and institutions; other economic, social, political and religious issues; and all other topics, vary as widely among Baha’is as they do in all the rest of society, all over the world. I don’t see anything in any Baha’is scriptures or in any statements from Baha’i institutions, that authorizes any person who is alive today, or any current or future Baha’i institution, to say that one view is right and the others are wrong. In fact I see Baha’i scriptures and the Universal House of Justice saying just the opposite: that there is not, and never will be for at least another 832 years, any person or institution who has that authority.

In this thread I want to say what some of my views are, and invite other Baha’is to say what their views are if they want to. If anyone, Baha’i or not, calls some view “the official Baha’i view,” I hope you’ll specify what you mean by that, and link to the source.
Click to expand...

The 'Baha'i view' seems clear to me.

Unto the Most Holy Book, ‘Abdu’l-Bahá declares in His Will and Testament, every one must turn, and all that is not expressly recorded therein must be referred to the Universal House of Justice.

The Constitution of the Universal House of Justice - 21 April 1963

 
Jim

Jim

Nets of Wonder
To explain what I think about gays, homosexuality and marriage, I want to give some background information first. In my understanding of Jewish, Christian, Muslim and Baha’i scriptures, when two people join together physically in the way that sometimes produces children, they become “husband” and “wife” for the purposes of all the laws for husbands and wives. That’s the definition of “husband” and “wife, in my understanding of those scriptures. Observance of those laws for husbands and wives is the only kind of marriage that I see God promoting in those scriptures. I don’t see any prohibition against people calling other kinds of relationships “marriage,” but that’s the only kind of marriage that I see God promoting.

As I understand it, in some societies now and in the past, there have been popular practices or maybe even social institutions where young men played the role of wives. It looks to me like Bahá’u’lláh has prohibited those practices.

Apart from the laws for husbands and wives, and possibly a prohibition against young men playing the role of wives, I see moral and spiritual principles, in my scriptures, that apply to all human relationships, including when and how we enjoy sexual pleasures. I don’t think that the morality, or the spiritual or psychological healthfulness, of romantic and sexual interests, and people enjoying sexual pleasures together, have anything to do with anyone’s gender or sex type.

In my understanding of Baha’i scriptures, Baha’i institutions don’t sanctify marriages. All they do is certify that a couple have become husband and wife in accordance with Baha’i laws. What makes a couple husband and wife according to Baha’i law is not a Baha’i official pronouncing them husband and wife. What makes them husband and wife is joining together physically in the way that sometimes produces children. There aren’t any laws in Baha’i scriptures for any kind of marriage between two men and two women, so there’s nothing to certify.

I don’t see civil marriage between two men or two women as a violation of any Baha’i law. I don’t think that anyone in a legal same-sex marriage should be excluded from membership in the Baha’i Faith or required to break up the marriage.
 
Last edited:
Jim

Jim

Nets of Wonder
Sometimes Baha’is say that it’s wrong for Baha’is to promote views that they think are contrary to the views of the House of Justice. One example is the view that women are not eligible for membership on the House of Justice. Another is that there can never be any more guardians after Shoghi Effendi. I think just the opposite, that Baha’is have a responsibility to promote whatever views they think are true, even if they think, themselves, that they’re disagreeing with the House of Justice. At the same time, I think they have a responsibility to do that honestly and responsibly, which for me does not include campaigns of denunciation and intimidation. I’ll say also that I’m not sure, myself, that there will never be women on the House of Justice, or that there will never be any more Guardians.
 
Jim

Jim

Nets of Wonder
Now I’ll say something about rights and freedoms. The kind of rights that I believe in are freedoms that I want all people everywhere to have, and that I’m trying to help make available to all people everywhere. That does not include a freedom for people to say whatever they want to say, whenever and however they want to. One freedom I want all people to have is the freedom to find out whatever other people are thinking, that they’re willing to share. Another is to always have some ways of sharing their own ideas and interests, without being maligned, scolded and hounded for it.
 
George-ananda

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
@Jim

I'll give you my thoughts as an ex-Bahai (but not anti-Bahai in feeling).

The Baha'i Faith is not well understood by most western Baha'is. The Baha'i Faith once accepted by an individual is not a believe as your conscious dictates religion on many subjects (homosexual behavior for example). There are aspects to the Faith that conflict with modern liberal western thinking.

Knowing those aspects that would not fly in the modern western liberal world there are many aspects to the Faith that are not emphasized in the presentation of the Faith to westerners. In fact they are so de-emphasized that perhaps most western Baha'is do not even understand their own Faith.

There are authoritative writings and institutions to interpret those writings and those laws and interpretations are positions every Baha'i must take to officially be in good standing.
 
TransmutingSoul

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
George-ananda said:
The Baha'i Faith is not well understood by most western Baha'is. The Baha'i Faith once accepted by an individual is not a believe as your conscious dictates religion on many subjects (homosexual behavior for example). There are aspects to the Faith that conflict with modern liberal western thinking.
Click to expand...

That is the key, it is the last lesson taught by Muhammad, submission to Allah to what the Messenger taught, not to what man wanted to do with that Message. The result of man not following what the Messenger offered, is a the great lesson of Islam and in all Faiths.

Baha'u'llah has said he came to create a new race of Men. Baha'u'llah came at a time amongst a people that had sunk to the lowest levels of materialism and far from what Allah taught in the Quran.

Abdul'baha went to America for the same reason. It is not because these people had superiority, but they could have led the world in the required change.

Thus the writings are clear, unity can only be taught when one has found and practiced unity. The Baha'i have not flourished, as we have also failed to become that new race of men. The high morality we have been called to, is a far cry from current popular thought and trying to balance that thought will not create change. One has to become that change and only then does one start radiating that change to others.

This day of great mental tests has been foretold, we have been warned and nothing short of full participation in the elixer will give humanity the peace and security it so longs for.

The correct path for a Baha'i who wants clarification on issues, is to go through the given Administrative Order. That is what was given for the Faith to work. First to Local level on to National Level and if no solution is found, then clarification from the Universal House of Justice.

At all levels the preference is submission to the decision given, even if it was wrong, that submission will eventully right a wrong. Until we practice as communities, being local houses of justice, we will never become good at it.

Regards Tony
 
Jim

Jim

Nets of Wonder
@George-ananda @Tony Bristow-Stagg Thank you, both of you, for posting your views, and for and keeping it friendly. Thank you. That is the very best that I could have hoped for. I hope that other Baha’is with views opposed to mine and to yours will do the same. The wider our views diverge, and the more friendly our conversation is, the better it is for my purposes, even more than when I started this thread. Now for me, this is about much more than diversity of Baha’i views. It’s about possibilities for all people.
 
TransmutingSoul

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Vinayaka said:
I'm a traditionalist Hindu, not some modern liberal western, and there are a lot of Baha'i beliefs that conflict with my faith and thinking as well.
Click to expand...

Could it be considered that 'Traditional' views have now taken on, or mixed with, a more 'modern liberal western view'

Regards Tony
 
Jim

Jim

Nets of Wonder
This discussion has taken an unexpected turn for me. Now I want to tell a part of my story in Internet discussions, with some Baha’is and former Baha’is who have been denouncing the House of Justice for twenty years or more. I became friends with a few of those people, and I agree with a lot of what they say. I disagree with popular Baha’i thinking in a lot of the same ways they do, and I’ve been saying so in Internet discussions for more than fifteen years. For example, I don’t think that the views of the House of Justice, about what Baha’i scriptures say, have any authority over Baha’is, and I think that Baha’is have a responsibility to promote whatever ideas and interests they believe in, even if they think that they’re disagreeing with the House of Justice. I’ve said that I’m not sure that there will never be women on the House of Justice, and I’m not sure that there will never be any more Guardians. I’ve said that excluding women from membership on the House of Justice is inconsistent with some of our public statements. Once in an Internet discussion I discussed with another Baha’i the possibility of bringing the issue of women being excluded from the House of Justice before some International institution or agency. I’ve said that I see a pathetic lack of social justice in the Baha’i community, and a pathetic lack of interest in doing anything about it. I’ve said that I don’t think that the morality and healthfulness of people enjoying sexual pleasure together has anything to do with anyone’s gender or sex type.

Those are a few examples of what I’ve been saying in Internet discussions for more than 15 years, that Baha’is sometimes think is crossing lines that we’re forbidden to cross. I know that the House of Justice has known all about all that for more than 15 years, because I wrote to them about it myself, more than once, and received answers. I’ve never been told by any Baha’i institution that I was wrong to be doing any of that, and I’m still a member in good standing.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top