Diverging views of Baha’is about their religion

[Jim]

In a thread about diversity of Baha’i views, someone said something about their view of the Baha’i Faith, and I thought that deserved a thread of its own, about the wide divergence I see between Baha’is, in their view of the Baha’i Faith, including what it is, how it functions, its qualifications for membership, what its possibilities are now and into the future, what it’s aiming for, and its relationship with other religions. I’ll post some of my thoughts about all that, and what I think I’ve seen other Baha’is saying about it. I hope that some other Baha’is whose views diverge from mine and from each other’s will do the same. The farther apart we are in our views, the better it will be for my purposes.

 

[Jim]

One Baha’i Faith that interests me is the community of people who are recognized as members by Baha’i institutions authorized by the Universal House of Justice on Mount Carmel. Another Baha’i Faith that interests me is people learning to love, trust and follow Bahá’u’lláh. It looks to me like the supreme leaders of those two Baha’i Faiths have always aimed for all the people in one to also be in the other, but I’m not sure that will ever actually happen.

When I say “Baha’i Faith” in Internet discussions, it might mean different things in different contexts. I don’t always have any precise definition in mind. Sometimes it might mean whatever I think it means to the other person. It may or may not include other people besides members, and what they do.

 

[Jim]

I see the Baha’i Faith of Bahá’u’lláh’s followers as a way for us to practice Bahá’u’lláh’s prescriptions for community life, and for people to see the possibilities in that kind of community life.

In the Baha’i Faith of Bahá’u’lláh’s followers as I imagine it, we’re learning to love, trust and follow Bahá’u’lláh together, as a way of learning to know and love God. We have some ideas about where He’s leading us, but we don’t expect to ever see it fully and clearly. It’s some kind of future for the world that will progressively bring out the best possibilities in all people and for all people, in society, and in the world around us.

Currently what we’re doing for that individually is whatever each us can think of to do to help, including systematic and sustained efforts, through prayer, study, meditation and practice, to improve our personality, character and the way we live our life. What we’re doing as a community is helping with the growth and spread of healthier, happier, more loving community life at the level of neighborhoods and villages all around the world.

We’re also working to influence the acttions and policies of governments and other institutions by participating in their consultations together, for example at intergovernmental conferences about various social issues.

 

[Jim]

A different view of the Baha’i Faith that I’ve seen some Baha’i promoting is that in the past it was or could have been on the leading edge of social progress, but now it has lost its way and is sinking into oblivion because it has been hijacked by fundamentalists.

 

[LuisDantas]

One Baha’i Faith that interests me is the community of people who are recognized as members by Baha’i institutions authorized by the Universal House of Justice on Mount Carmel. Another Baha’i Faith that interests me is people learning to love, trust and follow Bahá’u’lláh. It looks to me like the supreme leaders of those two Baha’i Faiths have always aimed for all the people in one to also be in the other, but I’m not sure that will ever actually happen.

When I say “Baha’i Faith” in Internet discussions, it might mean different things in different contexts. I don’t always have any precise definition in mind. Sometimes it might mean whatever I think it means to the other person. It may or may not include other people besides members, and what they do.

Are you willing to discuss possible causes and consequences of that contrast here in this thread?

 

[Jim]

Another view of the Baha’i Faith that I’ve seen some Baha’is promoting is that it’s a community of people defined by some beliefs that they have in common, different in some ways from the beliefs that define other religions. The Baha’i faith that I identify with has no creed that all of its members are presumed to endorse. It is defined as people learning to love, trust, and follow Bahá’u’lláh.

 

[Jim]

Are you willing to discuss possible causes and consequences of that contrast here in this thread?

You mean the contrast between defining the Baha’i Faith as a community of people recognized as members by Baha’i institutions, and defining it as people learning to love, trust and follow follow Bahá’u’lláh?

 

[LuisDantas]

You mean the contrast between defining the Baha’i Faith as a community of people recognized as members by Baha’i institutions, and defining it as people learning to love, trust and follow follow Bahá’u’lláh?

That, and closely related views.

I for one think that there are reasons why there are symultaneous yet conflicting views on the matter, and while it is certainly useful to study those, their origins and consequences, it is not a given that it is an actual problem that they exist in that admittedly disorienting way.

 

[Jim]

I for one think that there are reasons why there are symultaneous yet conflicting views on the matter, and while it is certainly useful to study those, their origins and consequences, it is not a given that it is an actual problem that they exist in that admittedly disorienting way.

I agree. It might take some time for me to think about how to answer your question. For now I’ll say that in my understanding, according to Bahá’u’lláh will and testament, and some of His other writings, His estate, which is the hearts of His followers, has passed in accordance with His wishes to the Baha’i Universal House of Justice seated on Mount Carmel in Israel.

I’ll also say that when I first learned about some Baha’is campaigning against the House of Justice, I was traumatized for a while by the thought that their way of thinking might eventually grow and spread enough to destroy the usefulness of that community for Baha’u’llah’s purposes. I recovered from that after a few minutes or maybe a few hours.

 

[LuisDantas]

Perhaps a tangent, but may I interest you in discussing the lifecycle and the proper flow of Dharma sometime?

 

[Jim]

Perhaps a tangent, but may I interest you in discussing the lifecycle and the proper flow of Dharma some time?

I would love that! I would cherish that! It’s like an answer to a prayer, something I was wishing for without any clear idea of what I was wishing for or what to do about it. I’m ready whenever you are, but can we find or start another thread for it?

 

[LuisDantas]

I would love that! I would cherish that! It’s like an answer to a prayer, something I was wishing for without any clear idea of what I was wishing for or what to do about it. I’m ready whenever you are, but can we find or start another thread for it?

Sure, Here it is - Some free talk about the flow of religious wisdom

 

[Jim]

Sure, Here it is - Some free talk about the flow of religious wisdom

Thanks. I’m super happy and excited about that. Thanks. I’ll need some time to ponder it.

Thinking about your question led me to a wonderful new insight about my experiences and conflicts of interest with other Baha’is in Internet discussions.

 

[Jim]

I said that one Baha'i Faith I see is the community of people recognized as members by Bahai institutions, and another Baha'i Faith I see is people learning to love, trust and follow Baha'u'llah. Some other Baha'i Faiths I see are in the minds of people whose Baha'i Faith is some things that they say they believe in, some values, principles and laws for example. For some people, that includes never openly disagreeing with what they think the House of Justice has said. For some others, it includes some version of "liberal" or "enlightenment" values. That's what Bahai feuding on the Internet has been all about for more than 20 years now.

 

[Jim]

I’ve said that one Baha’i Faith I see is the community of people recognized as members by some Baha’i institutions, another is people learning to love, trust and follow Bahá’u’lláh, and some others are what people think of as Baha’i beliefs and principles and how to apply them. For some, that includes never disagreeing openly with the House of Justice. For some others, it includes some values that they think of as liberal, enlightenment, modern or postmodern values. All of that is part of the diversity in Baha’i views that I want people to see.

 

[Jim]

Now I want to discuss the views I saw opposing each other in Baha’i feuding online. On side the views included never disagreeing openly with the House of Justice. On the other side the views included what people thought of as liberal, enlightenment, modern or postmodern values. People on that side sometimes called themselves and each other “liberals” but I can’t bring myself to call them that because their attitudes and behavior were diametrically opposed to what I’ve always thought of as being liberal. For now I’m calling them “liberators.”

A thought came to me now. It looks to me like the most visible liberators have been mostly authors, and next to that, other artists. Some of their views as I’ve understood them have been that the Baha’i Faith was or could have been on the leading edge of social progress, but it has lost its way and is sinking into oblivion because it has been hijacked by self-serving fundamentalists.

I see all of those Baha’i Faiths overlapping with each other.

I’m still hoping for more examples of diversity in Baha’i views about the Baha’i Faith.

 

[Jim]

Now I want to say something about the value I see in the Baha’i liberation movement. I disagree a lot with some of the attitudes and behavior associated with it, but I see a spirit and some ideas in it that are badly needed in the Baha’i Faith, and that I think have already done a lot of good.

From “One Common Faith,” a message to all Baha’is from the House of Justice:

“... the accelerating breakdown in social order calls out desperately for the religious spirit to be freed from the shackles that have so far prevented it from bringing to bear the healing influence of which it is capable.“

 

[Jim]

Are you willing to discuss possible causes and consequences of that contrast here in this thread?

"Baha'i Faith" means different things to different people, and in different contexts. One meaning is the community of people recognized as members by Baha'i institutions. Another is people learning to love, trust and follow Baha'u'llah together. Then there is a multitude of other Baha'i Faiths, what each person thinks of as Baha'i beliefs, values, principles and practices.

I started learning to follow Baha'u'llah before I became a member of the membership community. In my understanding, for more than 30 years, the membership community was a way for people to practice following Baha'u'llah's prescriptions for community life and the life of society. Then I discovered that Baha'is don't all think that way. I found out that for some of them, the Baha'i Faith was a religion for people who believe in what they think of as liberal, enlightenment, modern or postmodern values. That brought them into conflict with national spiritual assemblies, and eventually with the Universal House of Justice. They responded to that with campaigns of denunciation and intimidation against the House of Justice, and some other Baha'is responded to that with campaigns of denunciation against them. That led to open feuding between Baha'is in some discussion groups and forums. The open feuding eventually subsided, but I still see it poisoning relationships and discussions between Baha'is, especially on the Internet.

 

[Jim]

Another example of diversity in Baha'i views about the Baha'i Faith is in what to do with that diversity, what to do when we see other Baha'is whose view of the Baha'i Faith is different from ours.

Sometimes I've tried to be a friend to them, to see things their way and see the good in what they were doing, and to find some ways to serve what look to me like their best interests, which might sometimes be ways of trying to help free the spirit of the Baha'i Faith from its shackles. Sometimes I've tried to reason with them from our scriptures. Another way that I've sometimes seen myself and other Baha'is responding, when we see other Baha'is disagreeing with our view of the Baha'i Faith, has been to say or insinuate that they aren't true Baha'is, or that they are Covenant breakers. Another way has been to denounce and scold them in Internet discussions.

When I first discovered that some Baha'is don't agree with following Baha'u'llah and the House of Justice, it alarmed me a lot. I was afraid that if their views spread far enough, it might defeat the whole purpose of the membership community. After a while I fell back on my trust in Baha'u'llah, and comforted myself with the thought that even if the membership community were entirely destroyed, that could not destroy the community of Baha'u'llah's followers, or defeat His purposes. Maybe, it would slow us down a little, which would be sad, but not as bad as I thought at first.

 

[Jim]

The big concern is that ...

Your questions all look rhetorical to me, but there might be some good in it for both of us, if I answer them anyway, so I will.

... most Baha'is here miss the connection with people of other religions.

It looks that way to me, too.

Lots of people have given up on the religions of their parents. Some of those people are searching for something more real, something better, something that connects them to the spiritual world and to God. The Baha'i Faith has some great answers for them and give them a worldwide community of believers.

By “great answers,” do you mean some Baha’i teachings and principles that can connect people to the spiritual world and to God, that they don’t see in the religions of their parents?

But, what does the average Baha'i do? What do they become? Are they changed? Are they changing the world?

I think that some of them are. Maybe not all of them. Certainly not as much as I would like!

What is it going to take to get the Baha'i Faith to take the leadership in making the world a better place?

It looks to me like a part of it is already doing that. The way I think it will happen more is by Baha’is learning to follow Bahá’u’lláh and the House of Justice more, and better.

Baha'is seem to be waiting for something so cataclysmic that the people of the world will have no other choice but to come to the Baha'is.

There might be some Baha’is waiting for that. I don’t know of any, myself. It’s been 20 years or more since I heard any Baha’is talking about a cataclysm.

What does the Baha'i community really offer?

I’ll post again later with some thoughts about that.

Does it have its act together?

It looks to me like it does.

Are people in the Baha'i communities happy and satisfied that what they have can and will change the world... And, is a model for the world to see of how God's plan really works?

I think that some are and some aren’t.

Or is it just as dysfunctional as any other religion... With too many people lost and alone and not actively participating in the workings of their religion.

It looks to me like it is dysfunctional in those ways, and others besides.

So the question is... is the Baha'i Faith working for the majority of Baha'is.

I don’t know.

Because we all know that there are many inactive Baha'is and many people that have left and many people that have broken off and have already tried to establish their own versions of the Baha'i Faith.

Agreed.

So is it working?

It looks to me like it’s working very well for the best possibilities that I see in it. After some recent discussions here, I see that it’s working much better even than I thought before.