• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Discussing the Origin of Life

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Much of the evolution and creation debate devolves into "what about the origin of life" question despite the fact that evolutionary biology only explains the diversification of life once it has gained a foothold on earth. The field of natural origin of life (abiogenesis) is still in its infancy and there have been some good threads on it already. Here I would present a bit of an overview kind of discussion on where science is on this and what advances and challenges remain.
The basic concept of abiogenesis can be summarized using the figure below (book: the emergence of life 2nd ed.)
upload_2020-8-19_21-55-1.png


1) We initially have a stage if chemical evolution, when simple organic molecules present in early earth increased in complexity through chemical evolution to the prebiotic building blocks of life (bases, sugars, amino acids etc.) The fact that this can happen on early earth has been plausibly demonstrated by lots of research into chemical evolution. They have been covered in my earlier thread. LINK
2) The next phase goes into what is called molecular evolution where the building blocks of the eventually complex nucleic acids, bases, sugars, lipids etc. come together (maybe in proto cellular compartments) and engage in molecular evolution to create the complex macromolecules that enter into self-sustaining reactions that kick start life. Here we need to have the emergence of metabolic networks (reaction networks that interconnect and generate these macromolecules cyclically), the genetic code and the compartments that keep the important components of the reaction network together. This part has proven more difficult and I will focus more here, in this 2nd crucial phase to the transition to life.

One question that often comes up here is how can complexity spontaneously arises from simplicity when that would mean that the entropy of the system decreases? Of course, it happens all the time...for example during winter, the frozen ice crystals are much more complex in their structure than the liquid water it comes from. It is important to know that the science of thermodynamics does not say that entropy (S) cannot decrease in a spontaneous natural process. In thermodynamics we use a term called free energy (G) and what thermodynamics actually says is that: For any spontaneous process, the free energy of a system must decrease from its initial value at the beginning of that process. One defines free energy as:
Free Energy (G) = Thermal Energy (H) - Temperature*Entropy(S).
Clearly, if other terms remain constant and the entropy rises, then the Free Energy will fall making the process spontaneous. But note that entropy can decrease (system becomes more complex and ordered) and still the free energy can decrease if the decrease in thermal energy (H) is greater than the fall in entropy. This is precisely what happens when liquid water freezes, it releases a lot of heat into the surrounding leading to a fall in its thermal energy. This is just one of many many ways that the laws of thermodynamics will allow a system to decrease its entropy in a spontaneous fashion. Thus, from physical law point of view, we have no concern. It is understanding the molecular processes that led to the emergence of life like systems from the bio-molecular building blocks that will concern us. More on this in the next post.

Comments, thoughts? Welcome!
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
Much of the evolution and creation debate devolves into "what about the origin of life" question despite the fact that evolutionary biology only explains the diversification of life once it has gained a foothold on earth. The field of natural origin of life (abiogenesis) is still in its infancy and there have been some good threads on it already. Here I would present a bit of an overview kind of discussion on where science is on this and what advances and challenges remain.
The basic concept of abiogenesis can be summarized using the figure below (book: the emergence of life 2nd ed.)
View attachment 42119

1) We initially have a stage if chemical evolution, when simple organic molecules present in early earth increased in complexity through chemical evolution to the prebiotic building blocks of life (bases, sugars, amino acids etc.) The fact that this can happen on early earth has been plausibly demonstrated by lots of research into chemical evolution. They have been covered in my earlier thread. LINK
2) The next phase goes into what is called molecular evolution where the building blocks of the eventually complex nucleic acids, bases, sugars, lipids etc. come together (maybe in proto cellular compartments) and engage in molecular evolution to create the complex macromolecules that enter into self-sustaining reactions that kick start life. Here we need to have the emergence of metabolic networks (reaction networks that interconnect and generate these macromolecules cyclically), the genetic code and the compartments that keep the important components of the reaction network together. This part has proven more difficult and I will focus more here, in this 2nd crucial phase to the transition to life.

One question that often comes up here is how can complexity spontaneously arises from simplicity when that would mean that the entropy of the system decreases? Of course, it happens all the time...for example during winter, the frozen ice crystals are much more complex in their structure than the liquid water it comes from. It is important to know that the science of thermodynamics does not say that entropy (S) cannot decrease in a spontaneous natural process. In thermodynamics we use a term called free energy (G) and what thermodynamics actually says is that: For any spontaneous process, the free energy of a system must decrease from its initial value at the beginning of that process. One defines free energy as:
Free Energy (G) = Thermal Energy (H) - Temperature*Entropy(S).
Clearly, if other terms remain constant and the entropy rises, then the Free Energy will fall making the process spontaneous. But note that entropy can decrease (system becomes more complex and ordered) and still the free energy can decrease if the decrease in thermal energy (H) is greater than the fall in entropy. This is precisely what happens when liquid water freezes, it releases a lot of heat into the surrounding leading to a fall in its thermal energy. This is just one of many many ways that the laws of thermodynamics will allow a system to decrease its entropy in a spontaneous fashion. Thus, from physical law point of view, we have no concern. It is understanding the molecular processes that led to the emergence of life like systems from the bio-molecular building blocks that will concern us. More on this in the next post.

Comments, thoughts? Welcome!
I very much welcome the sound chemical thermodynamics!

One term I struggle with is "chemical evolution". Obviously the mechanism of natural selection does not operate until there is reproduction with genetic inheritance, whereby some variants reproduce more than others. So we are not taking about evolution in the Darwinian sense. What we seem to be talking about is the emergence of gentle enough environments for relatively complex molecules to form and remain stable long enough to interact with one another. I've just read your thread from 2016, in which you talk about the base units of RNA forming from readily available small molecules on the early Earth (HCN, HCCH, H2S etc). I presume this is the sort of thing you mean by "chemical evolution". Is that right?
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I very much welcome the sound chemical thermodynamics!

One term I struggle with is "chemical evolution". Obviously the mechanism of natural selection does not operate until there is reproduction with genetic inheritance, whereby some variants reproduce more than others. So we are not taking about evolution in the Darwinian sense. What we seem to be talking about is the emergence of gentle enough environments for relatively complex molecules to form and remain stable long enough to interact with one another. I've just read your thread from 2016, in which you talk about the base units of RNA forming from readily available small molecules on the early Earth (HCN, HCCH, H2S etc). I presume this is the sort of thing you mean by "chemical evolution". Is that right?
Yes, its not Darwinian evolution...but the more generic meaning just like "stellar evolution" etc.
Darwinism provides the mechanism for biological evolution, just as nucleosynthesis is the mechanism of stellar evolution etc.
 

Onoma

Active Member
Much of the evolution and creation debate devolves into "what about the origin of life" question despite the fact that evolutionary biology only explains the diversification of life once it has gained a foothold on earth. The field of natural origin of life (abiogenesis) is still in its infancy and there have been some good threads on it already. Here I would present a bit of an overview kind of discussion on where science is on this and what advances and challenges remain.
The basic concept of abiogenesis can be summarized using the figure below (book: the emergence of life 2nd ed.)
View attachment 42119

1) We initially have a stage if chemical evolution, when simple organic molecules present in early earth increased in complexity through chemical evolution to the prebiotic building blocks of life (bases, sugars, amino acids etc.) The fact that this can happen on early earth has been plausibly demonstrated by lots of research into chemical evolution. They have been covered in my earlier thread. LINK
2) The next phase goes into what is called molecular evolution where the building blocks of the eventually complex nucleic acids, bases, sugars, lipids etc. come together (maybe in proto cellular compartments) and engage in molecular evolution to create the complex macromolecules that enter into self-sustaining reactions that kick start life. Here we need to have the emergence of metabolic networks (reaction networks that interconnect and generate these macromolecules cyclically), the genetic code and the compartments that keep the important components of the reaction network together. This part has proven more difficult and I will focus more here, in this 2nd crucial phase to the transition to life.

One question that often comes up here is how can complexity spontaneously arises from simplicity when that would mean that the entropy of the system decreases? Of course, it happens all the time...for example during winter, the frozen ice crystals are much more complex in their structure than the liquid water it comes from. It is important to know that the science of thermodynamics does not say that entropy (S) cannot decrease in a spontaneous natural process. In thermodynamics we use a term called free energy (G) and what thermodynamics actually says is that: For any spontaneous process, the free energy of a system must decrease from its initial value at the beginning of that process. One defines free energy as:
Free Energy (G) = Thermal Energy (H) - Temperature*Entropy(S).
Clearly, if other terms remain constant and the entropy rises, then the Free Energy will fall making the process spontaneous. But note that entropy can decrease (system becomes more complex and ordered) and still the free energy can decrease if the decrease in thermal energy (H) is greater than the fall in entropy. This is precisely what happens when liquid water freezes, it releases a lot of heat into the surrounding leading to a fall in its thermal energy. This is just one of many many ways that the laws of thermodynamics will allow a system to decrease its entropy in a spontaneous fashion. Thus, from physical law point of view, we have no concern. It is understanding the molecular processes that led to the emergence of life like systems from the bio-molecular building blocks that will concern us. More on this in the next post.

Comments, thoughts? Welcome!

I thought that living things can't be considered closed systems, ( Closed systems don't exist ) so does " For any spontaneous process, the free energy of a system must decrease from its initial value at the beginning of that process " mean a living thing when it says " a system " ?

As a side thought..

Maybe the apparent rarity of life in the known universe itself is an example of the fluctuation theorem - that there's always some nonzero probability that entropy actually decrease ?


I've been thinking about this too, just ordered What is Life? by Schrödinger this afternoon






 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Comments, thoughts? Welcome!
I would like to add an intelligent will in nature to the speculation.

And also life on earth being fostered by intelligence.

Seems challenging (but not impossible I guess) to think that the current complexity developed from just natural unthinking forces. Many believe in a class of nature spirit beings above the physical level in Vedic and Theosophical traditions.
 
Last edited:

Onoma

Active Member
I guess a living thing could be covered under Crooks fluctuation theorem ?

Lost here, really
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
Yes, its not Darwinian evolution...but the more generic meaning just like "stellar evolution" etc.
Darwinism provides the mechanism for biological evolution, just as nucleosynthesis is the mechanism of stellar evolution etc.
Yes that's a good distinction to draw.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
I thought that living things can't be considered closed systems, ( Closed systems don't exist ) so does " For any spontaneous process, the free energy of a system must decrease from its initial value at the beginning of that process " mean a living thing when it says " a system " ?

As a side thought..

Maybe the apparent rarity of life in the known universe itself is an example of the fluctuation theorem - that there's always some nonzero probability that entropy actually decrease ?


I've been thinking about this too, just ordered What is Life? by Schrödinger this afternoon
I need to be careful here because thermodynamic terminology can catch me out;). This equation is for things like routine chemical reactions in a lab, i.e. open to the atmosphere and to heat exchange with the environment. It therefore applies to a closed system but would be inapplicable to an isolated one, since enthalpy, H (= U+PV work) would not be a relevant quantity, nor would it be possible for entropy to decrease.

While it's true a living organism is an open system, i.e. can exchange not only energy but matter with its environment, I suppose one can consider the possible processes going on inside with a fixed amount of nutrients, as a simplification. Having an open system would seem to make it even easier to have a local decrease of entropy within the organism.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I would like to add an intelligent will in nature to the speculation.

And also life on earth being fostered by intelligence.

Seems challenging (but not impossible I guess) to think that the current complexity developed from just natural unthinking forces. Many believe in a class of nature spirit beings above the physical level in Vedic and Theosophical traditions.
But why add an unnecessary and unevidenced factor? "Intelligence" doesn't even propose a mechanism, it's just a needless complication.

I could just as validly propose that life was assembled by a race of interdimentional mice.

I think you're trying to shoehorn reality into your personal mythology.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
But why add an unnecessary and unevidenced factor? "Intelligence" doesn't even propose a mechanism, it's just a needless complication.

I could just as validly propose that life was assembled by a race of interdimentional mice.

I think you're trying to shoehorn reality into your personal mythology.
I just believe the teaching of nature spirits fostering life from the teachings of my Vedic and Theosophical wisdom traditions. And to mention In these traditions that the life we are talking about getting created is not a material only thing.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I just believe the teaching of nature spirits fostering life from the teachings of my Vedic and Theosophical wisdom traditions. And to mention In these traditions that the life we are talking about getting created is not a material only thing.
That's understood. What I'm asking about is the "why?'
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I would like to add an intelligent will in nature to the speculation.

And also life on earth being fostered by intelligence.

Seems challenging (but not impossible I guess) to think that the current complexity developed from just natural unthinking forces. Many believe in a class of nature spirit beings above the physical level in Vedic and Theosophical traditions.
I am not aware that anything like this is said in the Vedas. Regardless, the objective in this thread is to understand the scientific viewpoint on this. Once that is somewhat clear we can see how it gels within various worldviews.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I thought that living things can't be considered closed systems, ( Closed systems don't exist ) so does " For any spontaneous process, the free energy of a system must decrease from its initial value at the beginning of that process " mean a living thing when it says " a system " ?

As a side thought..

Maybe the apparent rarity of life in the known universe itself is an example of the fluctuation theorem - that there's always some nonzero probability that entropy actually decrease ?


I've been thinking about this too, just ordered What is Life? by Schrödinger this afternoon





Open systems are also systems. Free energy decrease principle applies. Heat flow and entropy flow with mass flow has to be accounted for, but otherwise the equations are valid.
 

sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I need to be careful here because thermodynamic terminology can catch me out;). This equation is for things like routine chemical reactions in a lab, i.e. open to the atmosphere and to heat exchange with the environment. It therefore applies to a closed system but would be inapplicable to an isolated one, since enthalpy, H (= U+PV work) would not be a relevant quantity, nor would it be possible for entropy to decrease.

While it's true a living organism is an open system, i.e. can exchange not only energy but matter with its environment, I suppose one can consider the possible processes going on inside with a fixed amount of nutrients, as a simplification. Having an open system would seem to make it even easier to have a local decrease of entropy within the organism.
Yes. Things are even easier in open systems like living systems. Detailed reference is here below,
11.5: Spontaneous Reactions and Free Energy
Formation of macromolecules from simpler building blocks are examples of condensation reactions, so understanding this equation is especially useful to see why such reactions can occur spontaneously.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
You would then ask that scientist who claims our human life is from those building blocks that he is thesis studying and claims and I will put them in a machine, are you then going to put the Garden body/animals and humans inside of that machine and reaction?

You know claiming the UFO mass is a machine of the Sun and then you pass the held mass that gets dispersed for the power plant through the atmosphere so we all get put inside of the SUN machine? For you claiming you can copy and react that belief?

Father told me to anyone who believes that we came from the eternal spirit origins and when we die we return to the origin of our own self, an eternal being, that when he came out after the ICE AGE had killed off the mutation given to life by previous science, he followed out new animal life by the multitude, with our Holy Mother.

They were not the scientist self.

Human DNA evolved and returned and healed in our environmental cooling atmospheric condition....so then next moment the Satanic science human male life DNA/ re emerged.

It is why our brother taught about human male group, self owned Satanic attack on life as a scientist took a vow of chastity and said he would never have human sexual procreation his own self. Knowing how our occult human brother had returned in DNA human bodily healing. And he was never the spiritual Father male who owned the spiritual Mother union.

The reality of who he is, how he returned to human life, to re practice his owned history human occultism against life and future life existence.

For it is that form of science mind that always said, you do not have a spirit when you die. Speaking about it out of his own human DNA returned/healed psyche as the occult male self.

Why Father advised me that historically he was never the science male and the story history even said so.

Fact of history planet Earth own an immaculate not sacrificed heavenly gas mass. The huge sun UFO blasting passed through the atmosphere and into the Earth boring sink holes as first reason for light existing.

If science copies that theme for a machine inside of the planet body, where they placed it to say to copy origin, his intention is exactly what Stephen Hawking said....to burn us to death with EXTRA gas mass burning, held by the UFO as the mass of variable constants he O world Earth studied claiming to own holding it.

To be informed, science by study research to study conditions already apparent to claim I know and to copy. The UFO power plant is dispersed then vacuum spatial sucked out as reactive. Why science said, should not destroy life in a machine reaction. But it still irradiated us and made us all sick.

Science studying the UFO held constant wanted it fixed held...what Stephen Hawking said was our destruction as a scientist telling science that it is wrong.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Open systems are also systems. Free energy decrease principle applies. Heat flow and entropy flow with mass flow has to be accounted for, but otherwise the equations are valid.
Entropy applies to the whole. Consider the Earth a local hotspot. There's no entropy where energy is being created.
 
Top