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Discussing the Garden of Eden.

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Not at all. Rather, i believe this is a real event. So when i look into that event as it was written, it doesn't add up.
If you consider viewing it as an allegory, then it adds up just fine. It doesn't need to be analyzed literally down to every detail, in order for the truth of it to be told. Otherwise, you end up missing the point, being distracted by trying to make it fit your idea of what you think it should be about. You set yourself up to miss it, in other words, making it about something else.

A painting of a landscape, doesn't have to be technically flawless in it's details to communicate truth, goodness, and beauty. We still get the point of it without its technical impreciseness getting in the way. It's a painting, not a research paper on mountains with their exact altitudes and histories of how they formed due to tectonic plate shifts, and such. Why do you treat the Bible that way?
 
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halbhh

The wonder and awe of "all things".
It is written in Genesis 2:


21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;

22 And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

Let us focus on this passage in Genesis 2.

In the passage, i have highlighted verses 21-24 to propose we look closer into them. Let us discuss this passage.

Here is my question: According to this passage, GOD put Adam into a deep sleep, took a rib and made the woman, all while he was sleeping.

How did the Man, Father Adam, not even show any level of suprise, or even ask where she came from? But the next was that he prophesied: This is now bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh...

Then he even named her: She shall be called woman, because she was taken out of Man.

Then he said again: For this cause shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

And no time in this recount, did Father Adam show any suprise that she was suddently there, nor did GOD tell him what he would do. Why didn't he ask her where she came from,or even who she is? Rather, he told her who she is, and where she came from.

To understand this parable like story, try to read it as a whole, just listening like...

The way you would read a poem ... in a class before a test on the poem, so that you can answer subtle questions about things in the poem (to help pass the test...but better: even just to gain the value in the poem for yourself).

Here's a great poem for practice, recently entered into the public domain:

Whose woods these are I think I know.
His house is in the village though;
He will not see me stopping here
To watch his woods fill up with snow.

My little horse must think it queer
To stop without a farmhouse near
Between the woods and frozen lake
The darkest evening of the year.

He gives his harness bells a shake
To ask if there is some mistake.
The only other sound’s the sweep
Of easy wind and downy flake.

The woods are lovely, dark and deep,
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep.
-- R. Frost

 

Yahcubs777

Active Member
If you consider viewing it as an allegory, then it adds up just fine. It doesn't need to be analyzed literally down to every detail, in order for the truth of it to be told. Otherwise, you end up missing the point, being distracted by trying to make it fit your idea of what you think it should be about. You set yourself up to miss it, in other words, making it about something else.

A painting of a landscape, doesn't have to be technically flawless in it's details to communicate truth, goodness, and beauty. We still get the point of it without its technical impreciseness getting in the way. It's a painting, not a research paper on mountains with their exact altitudes and histories of how they formed due to tectonic plate shifts, and such. Why do you treat the Bible that way?

its not a painting, we are talking about a very serious matter here; this is the fall of Man. We should be looking into this much more imo. My questions, really only scrape the surface in this thread. I have many more questions too.
 

Yahcubs777

Active Member
To understand this parable like story, try to read it as a whole, just listening like...

The way you would read a poem ... in a class before a test on the poem, so that you can answer subtle questions about things in the poem (to help pass the test...but better: even just to gain the value in the poem for yourself).

Here's a great poem for practice, recently entered into the public domain:

Whose woods these are I think I know.
His house is in the village though;
He will not see me stopping here
To watch his woods fill up with snow.

My little horse must think it queer
To stop without a farmhouse near
Between the woods and frozen lake
The darkest evening of the year.

He gives his harness bells a shake
To ask if there is some mistake.
The only other sound’s the sweep
Of easy wind and downy flake.

The woods are lovely, dark and deep,
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep.
-- R. Frost

But this is the place where the fall of Man; its not a parable; unless you are sayingt the fall of Man isn't real.
 

Yahcubs777

Active Member
"Are you saying the fall was where she was a help?"

It's possible. What would happen if death did not exist and people multiplied and filled the earth? If eating the fruit, introduced death then it could be good. It helps Adam fullfill the commandment to be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth without over populating it. The commandment without death would only be possible temporarily. The commandment with death is possible eternally.

All this assumes that being "fruitful" is the same as procreation, though. It could also mean something else. Fruit doesn't last forever. It ripens, falls to the ground, rots, and leaves its seed behind. How is that possible without death?

Now we are getting somewhere.

But if what you are saying is true, then what is the fall of Man? Because it is written that Mother Eve is the reason the fall happened. Are you suggesting that man was in a different state than mortality before the fall?
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
its not a painting, we are talking about a very serious matter here; this is the fall of Man.
Yes, and what better way to describe that than through art? The Bible conveys through imagery painted with words, what cannot be expressed nor grasped by the reasoning mind alone. It goes far beyond that. To read it through the eyes of logic, is like trying to understand a symphony by looking at a sine wave on an oscilloscope.

We should be looking into this much more imo. My questions, really only scrape the surface in this thread. I have many more questions too.
The fall of man is a serious topic, and one I love very much. But in order to see it in the story, you have to take a sort of bird's eye view perspective of it; what is it trying to say as a whole about the human condition, NOT whether or not these characters of storyline make logical sense! :) They are symbolic in nature. They represent humanity at large.
 

Yahcubs777

Active Member
They are not symbols they are our principal ancestors. I can't see it the way you do. I want to understand it in its entirety, not by assuming things
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
They are not symbols they are our principal ancestors. I can't see it the way you do. I want to understand it in its entirety, not by assuming things
A symbol is more than just a genealogy. A symbol is more powerful than just a mere historical personage. Adam and Eve are symbols of all of our shared humanity. That makes them more than just a biological ancestor. They symbolize all of us.

If you truly want to understand them, you need to look at what they represent.
 

Yahcubs777

Active Member
A symbol is more than just a genealogy. A symbol is more powerful than just a mere historical personage. Adam and Eve are symbols of all of our shared humanity. That makes them more than just a biological ancestor. They symbolize all of us.

If you truly want to understand them, you need to look at what they represent.

These are two of the only of Mankind whose bodies were coupled by the Most Holy Hands of GOD; that was made in HIS image, and after HIS likeness; that did not come out from the womb of a woman. That is far greater and more powerful than any semblance of symbols. They do not symbolize us at all, we are a in a fallen nature; they were not. There isn't anything greater in the Mankind Race, than being the progenitor of that race; a man that fathered an entire race; where he can represent that entire race and also fight for his race against any foe; the David of the Mankind Race. He is the titan of the mankind race.

Therefore, When I look into this genesis story, I want to truly understand what actually happened. I am not satisified with looking at it any other way. I am a seeker of the kingdom.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
These are two of the only of Mankind whose bodies were coupled by the Most Holy Hands of GOD; that was made in HIS image, and after HIS likeness
That is what they symbolize about humanity at large. We are all created by God's hands, even if the mechanisms of that are done through biological reproduction and evolution. It is still God's creation. We are still all created in God's image.

Jesus did say, if we want to see the kingdom of God, we must be as little children. We must be as God creates us, which children manifest, rather than who we become as the world attempts to recreate us in its image and we lose touch of that, or "fall" from the presence of the Divine.

The Garden of Eden story, is each person's story of life, in symbolic form.

; that did not come out from the womb of a woman.
God created biological reproduction. Jesus came out of a woman's womb. Yet, he was the Son of God, and urges the rest of to be God's children as well.

That is far greater and more powerful than any semblance of symbols.
Symbols are infinitely more powerful than simple historical details.

They do not symbolize us at all, we are a in a fallen nature; they were not.
And yet, they sinned? Maybe we shouldn't read the story so literally? How could they have sinned, if we are to understand the story as them being created without the capability of error? Why would God create them as able to fall, and then present them with something that would bring about their deaths?

Would you as a parent, tell your 3 year old, don't ever go near that hot stove, and never put a roll of paper towels on the burners. You then turn them all onto high, and leave them alone with it in the house. What do you suppose might happen?

Who is to blame here? The child whose nature it is to test and explore? A child God created to be that way? Or God who left the temptation there for them, knowing they would fail? The clear answer is, the latter. Today, you'd probably be arrested if you did that with full knowledge of what would happen, but did it as a test of your child's abilities to follow your instructions to them.

You see the pickle you get into when you read these as literal, and then apply critical reasoning to it? It kind of falls apart as a meaningful story. The reason is does, is because folks are trying to read it as historical facts, rather than as symbolic allegories about the human condition we all have, which Adam and Eve symbolize for the rest of us.

There isn't anything greater in the Mankind Race, than being the progenitor of that race; a man that fathered an entire race; where he can represent that entire race and also fight for his race against any foe; the David of the Mankind Race. He is the titan of the mankind race.
The reason for the story is for all of us to identify with them. Not make them so far removed from us we cannot relate! This is the problem people do with Jesus Christ as well. They elevate him so high, so far above humanity, that no one can relate to him. He's so perfect, he is NOT someone we can identify with. Same thing with Adam and Eve.

Jesus symbolizes the Divine Human, and what it means to live and die as the Son of God. He symbolizes us in resurrection, just as much as Adam and Eve symbolize us in our fall from Grace.

Therefore, When I look into this genesis story, I want to truly understand what actually happened. I am not satisified with looking at it any other way. I am a seeker of the kingdom.
As am I. But I'll advise you that to insist upon looking at it only one way, is going to limit you very much.

The beauty of God's Truth, is that it can be seen through multiple ways of looking at it. To make your quest for Truth, or the kingdom of God a question of the analytical mind, will limit what you are able to see. We don't reason our way into God.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Now we are getting somewhere.

But if what you are saying is true, then what is the fall of Man? Because it is written that Mother Eve is the reason the fall happened. Are you suggesting that man was in a different state than mortality before the fall?
Adam and Eve had access to the Tree of Life. It would have been their choice whether or not to eat from it.

Regarding Eve: I'm not sure. Without knowing precisely what she said to Adam, I don't know whether she persuaded him or if Adam made a choice for himself.
 

Yahcubs777

Active Member
Adam and Eve had access to the Tree of Life. It would have been their choice whether or not to eat from it.

Regarding Eve: I'm not sure. Without knowing precisely what she said to Adam, I don't know whether she persuaded him or if Adam made a choice for himself.



1 Tim 2:14 answered this.

Adam was not deceived, it was the woman that was deceived and found in the transgression.
 

Yahcubs777

Active Member
That is what they symbolize about humanity at large. We are all created by God's hands, even if the mechanisms of that are done through biological reproduction and evolution. It is still God's creation. We are still all created in God's image.




And yet, they sinned? Maybe we shouldn't read the story so literally? How could they have sinned, if we are to understand the story as them being created without the capability of error? Why would God create them as able to fall, and then present them with something that would bring about their deaths?



.

No we are not all created by GOD's hands. We are birthed as Spirit Beings sure, but our body was formed in the womb by sperm and egg; two gametes came together to stitch our physical body. Its not the same as Father Adam and Mother Eve, not at all. They were the only ones who GOD coupled their physical bodies with HIS Most Holy Hands.

How can Man sin if he is not in a fallen state to have the nature to sin? Are you suggesting they had the nature to sin, yet it was declared that they were made in the image and after the likeness of GOD? Its not even free will that can answer this, because we are talking about a nature. If Man had a nature to sin, then they were not made in the image of GOD. Simple.

There is a reason, but i will get to that in time, im going to make this a series and in each thread i hope to discuss the whole Genesis story.
 
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Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
No we are not all created by GOD's hands.
Of course we are. Where do you think all this stuff we are made of comes from? Didn't God create everything? Isn't he the Creator? Are you saying that the system of reproduction is not created by God for His purposes?

Who created it then? The Devil? Adam and Eve? Were they creator gods?

No. God created the system that we are part of that generates new life everyday. It is the miracle of God's creation. It's what gave you birth. That's a miracle of God. And if we are God's creation, then that means God created us by his 'hands', or better understood as, his Power. Yes, we are all creations created by God's own being, though this system of life He created.

We are birthed as Spirit Beings sure, but our body was formed in the womb by sperm and egg; two gametes came together to stitch our physical body. Its not the same as Father Adam and Mother Eve, not at all. They were the only ones who GOD coupled their physical bodies with HIS Most Holy Hands.
I can't read that passage literally, that God's hands, means the equivalent of human digits. Nor do I read it as saying being created in God's image, means that God was a bipedal humanoid person. "God is not a man", is scripture, yet some people read Genesis to envision God as a man, where God's eye, means a literal eye; God's hand means a palm and 10 digits he used to form and shape clay with, and so forth.

Those are metaphors, to point to things that are beyond the physical understandings, written to the minds of those who need to think of God like a man. But is that the real understanding of the story?

How can Man sin if he is not in a fallen state to have the nature to sin? Are you suggesting they had the nature to sin, yet it was declared that they were made in the image and after the likeness of GOD?
Clearly, there is an issue in the story. As Jesus pointed out, that sin is not what you do, but what already is in your heart before the act itself (Jesus teaching on not committing adultery with the heart). That being true, which it is true, that "fallen nature" preceded the action. The sin already existed before it manifest itself in action.

There's a lot to think about there. But yes, in order for Adam and Eve to have sinned, that was already there in their natures before the act of eating the fruit.

Its not even free will that can answer this, because we are talking about a nature. If Man had a nature to sin, then they were not made in the image of GOD. Simple.
Or there is a better answer than that. And it's not so simple. ;)
 

halbhh

The wonder and awe of "all things".
But this is the place where the fall of Man; its not a parable; unless you are sayingt the fall of Man isn't real.
A good parable, such as parables in scripture -- as I hope you'd agree with me and others on this -- is more true than many things people think are 'facts' (as often people are mistaken).

Of course, a good parable is far deeper and more meaningful than a mere history. A parable is a story meant to tell us an essential truth about human life.

It's the same principle as in a simple parable like the Ant and the Grasshopper, that tells us a truth about saving up for a time when it's hard to bring in more -- a good parable is an essential truth about human life.

How much more so for parables in scripture that appeal to people in all nations, times and places across millenia.
 
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Yahcubs777

Active Member
Of course we are. Where do you think all this stuff we are made of comes from? Didn't God create everything? Isn't he the Creator? Are you saying that the system of reproduction is not created by God for His purposes?

Who created it then? The Devil? Adam and Eve? Were they creator gods?

No. God created the system that we are part of that generates new life everyday. It is the miracle of God's creation. It's what gave you birth. That's a miracle of God. And if we are God's creation, then that means God created us by his 'hands', or better understood as, his Power. Yes, we are all creations created by God's own being, though this system of life He created.


I can't read that passage literally, that God's hands, means the equivalent of human digits. Nor do I read it as saying being created in God's image, means that God was a bipedal humanoid person. "God is not a man", is scripture, yet some people read Genesis to envision God as a man, where God's eye, means a literal eye; God's hand means a palm and 10 digits he used to form and shape clay with, and so forth.

Those are metaphors, to point to things that are beyond the physical understandings, written to the minds of those who need to think of God like a man. But is that the real understanding of the story?


Clearly, there is an issue in the story. As Jesus pointed out, that sin is not what you do, but what already is in your heart before the act itself (Jesus teaching on not committing adultery with the heart). That being true, which it is true, that "fallen nature" preceded the action. The sin already existed before it manifest itself in action.

There's a lot to think about there. But yes, in order for Adam and Eve to have sinned, that was already there in their natures before the act of eating the fruit.


Or there is a better answer than that. And it's not so simple. ;)

No, there is disctinction. We are not equals with Adam, and Eve. Not at all. Just as we are not equals with Jesus His Pre-Eminence. Yes, GOD created all that is in HIS Logos, it doesn't mean our bodies were coupled by HIM. They were formed in a womb, by sperm and egg by Man in a fallen state; its not the same.

GOD is not a humanoid person, but HE has HIS own body. For HE has Pre-Eminence in all things. How can others now have body before HE does?

The heart is a different issue entirely. Put simply, a person who made in the image and after the likeness of GOD does not have the nature, or the heart to sin. Jesus HIs Pre-Eminence was talking about tares there.

Then you are saying they were not in GOD's image and likeness.
 

Yahcubs777

Active Member
A good parable, such as parables in scripture -- as I hope you'd agree with me and others on this -- is more true than many things people think are 'facts' (as often people are mistaken).

Of course, a good parable is far deeper and more meaningful than a mere history. A parable is a story meant to tell us an essential truth about human life.

It's the same principle as in a simple parable like the Ant and the Grasshopper, that tells us a truth about saving up for a time when it's hard to bring in more -- a good parable is an essential truth about human life.

How much more so for parables in scripture that appeal to people in all nations, times and places across millenia.

But this was not an allegory, its a real event. I agree with you about parables, and in this event, GOD did speak in parables, yes. But the story as a whole is a real event.
 

halbhh

The wonder and awe of "all things".
But this was not an allegory, its a real event. I agree with you about parables, and in this event, GOD did speak in parables, yes. But the story as a whole is a real event.
I think so too, but it's so much more important for people to step back from the trees and see the whole forest -- instead of arguing about what was literal -- the real value is to listen to the story as a whole, really listen, to hear the deeper meaning. It's so vastly more meaningful than merely that Adam and Eve ate the fruit and got ejected from the Garden and became mortal (which would be like a caricature). There is valuable and deeper meaning available for those that would truly listen.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
No, there is disctinction. We are not equals with Adam, and Eve. Not at all. Just as we are not equals with Jesus His Pre-Eminence.
We are all unique, yet all the same at the same time. So yes, we're not equal to others, such as Adam and Eve, or our own parents either. But at the same time, we are all the same. We share a similar nature.

And that is the point of the Adam and Eve story. They were human, and we are human, both with that same dual nature where spiritually we will do to God's Will, yet our fleshly nature and its desires of the world draw us away from God. That is exactly what the story of Adam and Eve symbolizes - our very own spiritual struggle.

We all have that dual nature, as did they in the story. Why else would they have sinned? Why else do we?

Yes, GOD created all that is in HIS Logos, it doesn't mean our bodies were coupled by HIM. They were formed in a womb, by sperm and egg by Man in a fallen state; its not the same.
Oh, I see your mistake here. You think the womb of your mother is not a miracle of God? It's an imperfect creation? It was not intended that life come into being that way, but instead each person fashioned by a lump of clay by God's hands Himself?

Was that the intention in God's original creation, to hand fashion each of us, and leave us under a cabbage leaf for our human parents to find and raise? I'm not sure what other mechanism for human children there was originally, do you?

GOD is not a humanoid person, but HE has HIS own body.
He does? You mean a physical form, like flesh and bones? There's a lot of issues thinking of God like this, not the least of which is scripture itself. "God is Spirit", is the first of countless others that comes to mind.

But aside from that, logic alone has a problem with that. If God is Infinite, then how can he have an outside to Himself? How can there be any "outside" to Infinity? The Infinite includes everything, and excludes nothing.

To put God into a form, like a horned bull, or some other idol of the mind, throws Infinity right out the door on its ear, and instantly brings us back to the golden idols of the pre-monotheistic world, where YHWH was a local deity amongst the other gods of the other tribes. That image of God, is not one of the Universal God, the Omniscience, Omnipresent, Omnipotent God which is understood as Infinite in being, nature, and power. You can't put God into a body, and keep Him up there at that level.

The heart is a different issue entirely. Put simply, a person who made in the image and after the likeness of GOD does not have the nature, or the heart to sin. Jesus HIs Pre-Eminence was talking about tares there.
What Jesus was specifically taught was that these religious people who thought they were pious people because they did not break the law (or eat that fruit in the Garden), that they we not sinful in heart. They thought it's what you do that is sin. Jesus said to them, no, it is what you think in your heart, what you ponder and consider to do, is sin already. The sin has happened, even if you would never in a million years actually do such an unrighteous thing yourself!

So yes, the heart is the place where sin takes place. It's the place we need to look to judge sin itself. That's Jesus' message.

Then you are saying they were not in GOD's image and likeness.
No, not at all. I believe we are all created in the image of God. God creates humans in His image in every birth that occurs. But within that creation, is this dual nature that divides itself from creation, yet sees itself divided from the Source, a creature created between two worlds; the manifest world, and the Divine Mind.

The story of the Fall in the Garden, expresses that self-awareness in humans of this dualistic reality we live in. They sinned, because we sin.
 
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