1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Discussing Genesis 1&2 - The Beginning

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Seve, Mar 24, 2019.

  1. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    7,384
    Ratings:
    +2,235
    Religion:
    Christian
    I am not referencing Ussher on the flood. I'm referencing the King's list of Sumer. The flood was in 2900 BC.

    The tower of Babel dates to 3500 BC.

    Yes, there are many cities that predate Adam and Eve.

    Bible stories are not dependent on historical facts.. They are quite fanciful and freewheeling.
     
  2. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    7,384
    Ratings:
    +2,235
    Religion:
    Christian
    Well, the people in Sumer were from the East coast of Saudi Arabia, but there was NO Ur of the Chaldees in the time of Abraham.. Until 1850 Bible scholars thought Abraham was from Urfa near Haran in south east Turkey which would have made him from Aram or Syrian.

    As for Egypt.. The Canaanites had close ties to Egypt. For much of their history they were under Egyptian control and paid tribute to pharaoh who provided Egyptian garrisons to protect them.

    There was also a Jewish settlement at Elephantine Island from about the 6th century BC.. They had a temple, but apparently didn't have the post exilic torah.

    The north coast Canaanites (Ugarit) were also under Egypt much of their history and the Hebrews borrowed a great deal from their mythology.
     
  3. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    7,384
    Ratings:
    +2,235
    Religion:
    Christian
    There is so much more to history of the Middle East than just the Jewish story.

    Doctrine isn't history.
     
  4. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2017
    Messages:
    10,485
    Ratings:
    +9,895
    Religion:
    Non-theist
    *** mod post ***

    Please be advised that overuse of off-topic videos or fonts/colors that make reading and discussion difficult can be regarded as spam.

    4. Soliciting/Advertising and Off-Topic Spam
    Soliciting or advertising for any content outside of the forums, whether your own or that of another person or group, is prohibited, and may be deleted by the staff on sight. This rule applies to any content area of the forum, including but not limited to the chat room, forum posts, profile information, private conversations, and signatures. Special exception may be granted to promote content in keeping with the mission of RF, but requires advance permission from the RF staff.

    Spam or off-topic content is also not allowed on the forums. This includes (but is not limited to) posting links or images without discussion-promoting commentary, having a signature that violates signature size guidelines, posting surveys without permission from the RF staff, posts that deviate significantly from a thread topic or its intent, repetitious non-conversational posts, and any other habits deemed spammy by the staff.


     
  5. THE HOOD APOLOGIST

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2019
    Messages:
    125
    Ratings:
    +38
    Religion:
    Christian
     
  6. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    7,384
    Ratings:
    +2,235
    Religion:
    Christian
    I'm Episcopalian. I don't read scripture as literal history or science. I have been taught to look for the message believing that the message is more important than the myth used to teach it. Most children by the age of 10 think Jonah being swallowed by a fish for 3 days is absurd... not much different than a puppet boy (Pinocchio) turning into a real boy or Geppeto being swallowed by a monstrous whale.

    But, if you do your homework...… the Book of Jonah is a comic novella that teaches God also loved the people of Nineveh and wanted them to repent. Jonah was angry and sullen because he wanted God to destroy them even though they repented.. When he pouted God took away his shade tree, The story is about obedience and xenophobia..
     
  7. Clear

    Clear Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2008
    Messages:
    1,736
    Ratings:
    +236
    Religion:
    Christian
    Hi Seve :

    Your Opening post said : "...Here’s a brief summary of how I read the first five verses of the the Book of Genesis - The Beginning:
    Genesis 1:1 Is a Preface or Summary - The Story of the Beginning of the Physical World
    Genesis 1:2 Tells us the condition of the deep - empty / void - before the making of the physical world.
    Genesis 1:3 The bringing forth of the LIGHT before anything is made that was made.... before the world was.
    Genesis 1:4 The division of light from darkness - the first work of old.
    Genesis 1:5 The evening and the morning the first day of creation.
    As you can see, based on the above perspective of the cited texts, our physical heaven and earth that we know of today is still formless and void on the 1st Day of Creation. The 1st formation of the firmament of Heaven took place on the 2nd Day - Gen 1:6-8. The Earth was formed/made on the 3rd Day."
    (Seve in the opening post, Bold and underline is mine)

    Seve

    Perhaps I misunderstand your specific statement that “The Earth was formed/made on the 3rd Day.” (Seve, in post #1)

    While the earth (γη = earth in septuagint or ארע = earth/land in Masoretic) is in existence in verse one, it is simply not yet organized or furnished.

    For example, in the septuagint, the material of the earth exists but is described in verse #2, as unseen and unfurnished (or “unready”), αορατοσ και ακατασκεθαστοσ. This is not a state of non-existence, but merely a less organized condition. The Masoretic description in verse #2 of chaotic and empty (חיתח תהו ובהו) also does not imply non-existence, but that the material of the organized earth was not yet organized and furnished. I cannot tell how much this coordinates with your theory or how much it is different than your personal theory on this specific point. Perhaps I misunderstand your statements in the opening post?

    At any rate, good luck in coming up with personal models as to what such scriptures mean.

    Clear
    ειφυφυδρω
     
  8. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2006
    Messages:
    14,840
    Ratings:
    +864
    Religion:
    Christian
    I believe that is a presumption without supporting evidence.
     
  9. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2006
    Messages:
    14,840
    Ratings:
    +864
    Religion:
    Christian
    I believe that is poppycock. There is no evidence that Moses derived his information from anyone except God.
     
  10. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2006
    Messages:
    14,840
    Ratings:
    +864
    Religion:
    Christian
    I believe saying it is a fairy tale is a fairy tale. There is no evidence. I challenge you to find anything other than the Bible that says something different.
     
  11. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    7,384
    Ratings:
    +2,235
    Religion:
    Christian
    Moses is a literary device.. He didn't exist and Exodus is faction.
     
  12. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2017
    Messages:
    10,308
    Ratings:
    +4,476
    Religion:
    Baha'i Faith
    There is absolutely no evidence anything of the Pentateuch was written prior to ~800-600 BCE, and no text until the Dead Sea scrolls. The only other ancient Pentateuch is found in the cuneiform tablets of Sumeria, Babylonia, Canaanite, and Ugarit sources.
     
  13. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2017
    Messages:
    10,308
    Ratings:
    +4,476
    Religion:
    Baha'i Faith
    I do believe Moses existed, but not the Moses of Exodus, nor the author of the Pentateuch.
     
  14. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    7,384
    Ratings:
    +2,235
    Religion:
    Christian
    Well, the Pentateuch was written 800 years after the death of Moses. Do you wonder about borrowing myths from Babylon, Egypt and the Ugarit???
     
  15. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2017
    Messages:
    10,308
    Ratings:
    +4,476
    Religion:
    Baha'i Faith
    The present evidence is that the Pentateuch is a product of different sources, Hebrew traditional sources, and no first author evidence. Yes there is extensive evidence that yes there are sources.

    If you are sorting out first person authored sources that are not evolved text to justify belief, that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam have scripture of poor provenance.
     
    #155 shunyadragon, Apr 13, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2019
    • Like Like x 1
  16. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2018
    Messages:
    10,491
    Ratings:
    +5,000
    Religion:
    None

    Your challenge will go unmet because,
    A- what the bible "says" seems different for each person
    B- i can make no sense of what you said. Sorry, but
    maybe rephrase?

    I any event, the noahs ark story, while it lacks fairies,
    is a fantastical tale with no historical truth to it.

    If you are an adult who does not grasp that fact,
    there may be little anyone, nor all the evidence in
    the universe coukd do for you.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  17. Seve

    Seve Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2019
    Messages:
    75
    Ratings:
    +5
    Religion:
    Christian
    Hello,

    Exactly which is it in my post that you want me to elaborate, so, I can explain further for your better understanding. Thanks
     
  18. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2019
    Messages:
    7,384
    Ratings:
    +2,235
    Religion:
    Christian
    There was no Moses. He is a literary device. Exodus is a morality tale not history.
     
  19. Bethsheba Ashe

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2019
    Messages:
    81
    Ratings:
    +38
    Religion:
    Research
    Heavens. There were seven of them, aka the seven palaces. :)

    The following is the alphabetic acrostic of Genesis 1 and 2.
    The letters run in this order (right to left):
    א 1 ב 2 ג 3 ש 3 ד 4 ת 4 ה 5 ו 6 ז 7 ח 8 ט 9 י 10 כ 20 ל 30 מ 40 נ 50 ס 60 ע 70 פ 80 צ 90 ק 100 ר 200

    Similar to the alphabetical acrostics in Psalms, each letter is relative to a section of Chapters 1 and 2 of the Book of Genesis and is mapped to the diagram of the Seven Palace. This is why the text is not linear.

    [​IMG]

    The Palace of Beth (2).
    ‎“1. In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2. The earth was formless and void, and ‎darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the ‎waters. “‎

    The two Palaces of the Aleph (1).
    ‎“3. Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4. God saw that the light was good; and ‎God separated the light from the darkness.”‎
    ‎ “5. God called the light day, and the darkness He called night. And there was evening and there was ‎morning, one day.”‎

    The path of Gimel (3)‎.
    ‎“6. Then God said, “Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters ‎from the waters.” ‎
    ‎“7. God made the expanse, and separated the waters which were below the expanse from the ‎waters which were above the expanse; and it was so.” ‎
    ‎“8. God called the expanse heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.”‎

    The path of Shin 3‎.
    ‎“9. Then God said, “Let the waters below the heavens be gathered into one place, and let the dry land ‎appear”; and it was so. “‎
    ‎“10. God called the dry land earth, and the gathering of the waters He called seas; and God saw that it ‎was good.”‎

    Dalet 4‎.
    ‎“11. Then God said, “Let the earth sprout vegetation: plants yielding seed, and fruit trees on the earth ‎bearing fruit after their kind with seed in them”; and it was so. 12. The earth brought forth vegetation, ‎plants yielding seed after their kind, and trees bearing fruit with seed in them, after their kind; and God ‎saw that it was good. 13. There was evening and there was morning, a third day.”‎

    The path of Tav 4‎.
    ‎14. Then God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the ‎night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years; 15. and let them be for lights ‎in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth”; and it was so. 16. God made the two great ‎lights, the greater light to govern the day, and the lesser light to govern the night; ‎

    The Path and Palace of the Heh (5)‎.
    He made the stars also. 17. God placed them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the ‎earth, 18. and to govern the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness; and ‎God saw that it was good. 19. There was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.

    Vau 6‎.
    ‎20. Then God said, “Let the waters teem with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the ‎earth in the open expanse of the heavens.” 21. God created the great sea monsters and every ‎living creature that moves, with which the waters swarmed after their kind, and every winged bird after ‎its kind; and God saw that it was good. 22. God blessed them, saying, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill ‎the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.”‎
    ‎23. There was evening and there was morning, a fifth day.‎

    Zayin 7‎.
    ‎ 24. Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind: cattle and ‎creeping things and beasts of the earth after their kind”; and it was so. 25. God made the beasts of the ‎earth after their kind, and the cattle after their kind, and everything that creeps on the ground after its ‎kind; and God saw that it was good.‎

    Cheth 8‎.
    ‎26. Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over ‎the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over ‎every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27. God created man in His own image, in the image of ‎God He created him; male and female He created them. 28. God blessed them; and God said to them, ‎‎”Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the ‎birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”‎

    Teth 9.
    ‎29. Then God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the ‎earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you; 30. and to every beast of ‎the earth and to every bird of the sky and to everything that moves on the earth which has life, I have ‎given every green plant for food”; and it was so. 31. God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was ‎very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

    Yod 10‎.
    ‎ 1. Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2. By the seventh day God ‎completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He ‎had done. 3. Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His ‎work which God had created and made.‎

    Kaph 20‎.
    ‎4. This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD ‎God made earth and heaven. 5. Now no shrub of the field was yet in the earth, and no plant of the ‎field had yet sprouted, for the LORD God had not sent rain upon the earth, and there was no man to ‎cultivate the ground. 6. But a mist used to rise from the earth and water the whole surface of the ‎ground. ‎

    Lamed 30‎.
    ‎7. Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath ‎of life; and man became a living being. ‎

    Mem 40‎.
    ‎8. The LORD God planted a garden toward the east, in Eden; and there He placed the man whom He ‎had formed. ‎

    Nun 50‎.
    ‎9. Out of the ground the LORD God caused to grow every tree that is pleasing to the sight and good ‎for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and ‎evil.‎

    Samekh 60‎.
    ‎10. Now a river flowed out of Eden to water the garden; and from there it divided and became four ‎rivers. 11. The name of the first is Pishon; it flows around the whole land of Havilah, where there is ‎gold. 12. The gold of that land is good; the bdellium and the onyx stone are there. 13. The name of ‎the second river is Gihon; it flows around the whole land of Cush. 14. The name of the third river is ‎Tigris; it flows east of Assyria. And the fourth river is the Euphrates.‎

    Ayin 70‎.
    ‎15. Then the LORD God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to cultivate it and keep it. ‎‎16. The LORD God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; 17. ‎but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from ‎it you will surely die.”‎

    Peh 80‎.
    ‎18. Then the LORD God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable ‎for him.” 19. Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky, ‎and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living ‎creature, that was its name. 20. The man gave names to all the cattle, and to the birds of the sky, and ‎to every beast of the field, but for Adam there was not found a helper suitable for him. ‎

    Tsade 90‎.
    ‎21. So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he slept; then He took one of his ‎ribs and closed up the flesh at that place. 22. The LORD God fashioned into a woman the rib which He ‎had taken from the man, and brought her to the man.‎

    Qoph 100‎.
    ‎23. The man said,‎
    ‎“This is now bone of my bones,
    And flesh of my flesh;
    She shall be called Woman,
    Because she was taken out of Man.”‎

    Resh 200‎.
    ‎24. For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother, and be joined to his wife; and they shall ‎become one flesh. 25. And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed.‎”


    If I were to mnemonic the letters via the descriptions from Genesis they’d probably resemble something like this:

    Beth ~ Gods house, everything in Heaven and Earth.
    Aleph ~ Light/ Day and Night.
    Gimel ~ Sky / Heaven.
    Shin ~ Fire / Dryness / Heat.
    Daleth ~ Doors into and out of the world.
    Tav ~ the Measurement of Solar and Lunar Time.
    Heh ~ Stars and Starlight.
    Vav ~ Birds, Fish and Sea Monsters.
    Zayin ~ Cattle and Insects.
    Cheth ~ Sight, Vision, Appearance, Prophesy, Man.
    Teth ~ Food.
    Yod ~ Rest and Contemplation.
    Kaph ~ Mist, Rain, Desire.
    Lamed ~ The breath of Life, Neshamah.
    Mem ~ Pregnancy.
    Nun ~ Life, but also Death for all living things under the Sun.
    Samekh ~ the great River.
    Ayin ~ Temptation.
    Peh ~ Mating.
    Tsade ~ Childbirth, because Eve is regarded as the first birth according to Kabbalah.
    Qoph ~ Moon / Eve / female.
    Resh ~ Sun / Adam / male.

    The letter Daleth needs a little further explanation; as it is assigned to two Palaces, but only one of them – the one to the left – is being discussed in her verses. This Palace represents the door through which all things enter into the world from heaven. It’s twin on the right side is the door through which all things exit the world and enter heaven. In these verses, though they seem to be about the creation of trees and vegetation in the world, the take away is that it is the first time God has caused anything to live upon the earth and so it is the first time one of these doors are used.
     
  20. Muffled

    Muffled Jesus in me

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2006
    Messages:
    14,840
    Ratings:
    +864
    Religion:
    Christian
    I believe you are calling God a liar since He has Moses in the Bible.I suppose your information comes from someones wild imagination.
     
Loading...