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Featured Discussing Genesis 1&2 - The Beginning

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Seve, Mar 24, 2019.

  1. Seve

    Seve Member

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    Perhaps, you can create another thread for your requested topic above... since the Divinity of the Son of God is not being question here on this thread directly. I just happen to respond to one of the poster relevant to the discussion he brought forth.

    However, if you like to know, it is my Biblical Stand that YHWH is the Son of the invisible God - who was brought forth (begotten) into this world in the beginning, BEFORE the world was - and became known as Jesus Christ in the New Testament.

    Except the Son, No one knows the name of the invisible God Father at this time.

    God bless .
     
  2. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    That was your post.
    I think I got it.
    Your ideas move from one side, then the next.
    The divinity of the Son isn't discussed but you did discussed it.
    Wow, its like something different.;)
     
  3. Sky Rivers

    Sky Rivers Active Member

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    One problem...

    The term "world's" doesn't refer to any sort of "multiverse", it refers to the ages. Here, it's written that God framed the ages with his spoken word.

    By this understanding, all which was made, God SPOKE into being and the ages were framed by God's speaking.

    Also...

    Hebrews 1:2 KJV
    Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
     

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  4. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I find Genesis 2:4 sums up all of the 6 creative days as a ' day ' or period of time.
    Kind of like we might speak of Grandfather's day and know that is Not a 24-hr. day.
    Please notice there is a difference between the words: create, formed and made.
    For example: God 'made' the 'already created' sun and moon do something.
    Kind of like parents pro-create a child, and then they can 'make' the child be 'made' to sit in a chair.
    At Genesis 1:16 God 'made' the existing sun and moon rule the day, rule the night. Made a job for them to do.
    So, the created Earth of Genesis 1:1 was existing, and on the 3rd day God made the firmament do something.
     
  5. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I don't know where in the 'heaven of heavens' (1 Kings 8:27) but God created the material / physical realm out of His Great Power and Strength according to Isaiah 40:26; Jeremiah 10:12, so God supplied the abundantly needed dynamic energy to create the visible realm of creation - Psalms 104:30.
     
  6. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Even before Moses, seems to me that Abraham knew God's name according to Genesis 22:14.
    KJV translated the Tetragrammaton name as LORD in all Upper-Case letters.
    Where the Tetragrammaton does Not stand then Lord is printed with some lower-case letters as at Psalms 110.
    So, to me there is No reason to doubt that since Adam had a name so did his God and it was known.
     
  7. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    Do you have a LINK?
     
  8. Seve

    Seve Member

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    It's a problem to those who will try to force the meaning of the subject word to fit their religious belief and assumption.

    Here's the meaning and the usage of the word 'WORLDS' used in Heb 11:3

    Through faith G4102 we understand G3539 that the worlds G165 were framed G2675 by the word G4487 of God, G2316 so G1519 that things which G3588 are seen G991were G1096 ➔ not G3361 made G1096 of G1537 things which do appear. G5316

    Lexicon :: Strong's G165 - aiōn

    Choose a new font size and typeface

    αἰών

    Transliteration

    aiōn

    Pronunciation

    ī-ō'n (Key)

    Part of Speech

    masculine noun

    Root Word (Etymology)

    From the same as ἀεί (G104)

    Greek Inflections of αἰών

    mGNT

    122x in 7 unique form(s) TR

    128x in 9 unique form(s) LXX

    415x in 8 unique form(s)

    αἰῶνα — 33x

    αἰωνας — 1x

    αἰῶνας — 30x

    αἶῶνας — 1x

    αἰῶνι — 8x

    αἰῶνός — 1x

    αἰῶνος — 24x

    αἰώνων — 29x

    αἰῶσιν — 1x

    Dictionary Aids

    Vine's Expository Dictionary: View Entry


    TDNT Reference: 1:197,31


    Trench's Synonyms: lix. κόσμος, αἰών.

    KJV Translation Count — Total: 128x

    The KJV translates Strong's G165 in the following manner: ever (71x), world (38x), never (with G3364) (with G1519) (with G3588) (6x), evermore (4x), age (2x), eternal (2x), miscellaneous (5x).

    Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

    for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
    the worlds, universe
    period of time, age
     
  9. Sky Rivers

    Sky Rivers Active Member

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    I'm not the one forcing "multiverse" and other fictitious things into scripture.
     
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  10. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    and that is how the cookie crumbles....

    and we are moving.....
     
  11. Seve

    Seve Member

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    Oh yeah? Sorry but you seem to be ill informed... Read and learn..

    A Multiverse is composed of 2 or more Universes.

    Gen. 1:6-8 tells us the first world (Universe-Cosmos-Heaven) was made on the SECOND Day.

    Gen. 2:4 shows that other HeavenS (Heaven is defined in Gen. 1:8) were made on the THIRD Day.

    That is 3 firmaments or boundaries of a Heaven (Cosmos, Universe-world) made by the 3rd Day.

    Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

    Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. v2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

    It's a Multiverse, alright.

    Therefore, consider yourself REFUTED!

     
  12. Sky Rivers

    Sky Rivers Active Member

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    Heaven refers to the visible sky or arch of sky.
    Cosmos refers to an ordered system.
    Earth refers to dry land. (Exceptions apply)

    As for "universe"? It doesn't exist in the Bible I read (Authorized King James Version). However, it is used in other translations, specifically in reference to "the world" or "all things".

    ***

    "Universe" is mentioned 4 times in the NLT, 4 times in the NIV, 2 times in the ESV, 2 times in the CSB, 4 times in the RSV, and 1 time in the HNV.

    NIV: Eph 4:10 - He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe. (World)

    Greek word: pas - translated from "all things".

    NIV: Heb 1:2 - but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. (World/everything)

    Greek word: aion - translated from "the world".

    NIV: Heb 11:3 - By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible. (World)

    Greek word: aion - translated from "the worlds"

    **"

    Etymology:

    1580s, "the whole world, cosmos, the totality of existing things," from Old French univers (12c.), from Latin universum "all things, everybody, all people, the whole world," noun use of neuter of adjective universus "all together, all in one, whole, entire, relating to all," literally "turned into one," from unus"one" (from PIE root *oi-no- "one, unique") + versus, past participle of vertere "to turn, turn back, be turned; convert, transform, translate; be changed" (from PIE root *wer- (2) "to turn, bend").

    universe | Origin and meaning of universe by Online Etymology Dictionary

    Dictionary:

    1: the whole body of things and phenomena observed or postulated : COSMOS: such as

    a: a systematic whole held to arise by and persist through the direct intervention of divine power

    b: the world of human experience

    c(1): the entire celestial cosmos

    (2): MILKY WAY GALAXY

    (3): an aggregate of stars comparable to the Milky Way galaxy

    ***

    Consider yourself gently corrected.
     
  13. Sky Rivers

    Sky Rivers Active Member

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    Also...

    Genesis 1:1 is the point where the visible sky and body of the earth (in this case, the watery plane) were created. If you desire to read into it further, you can apply "heavens".

    1. The place where the birds fly.

    2. The area where the stars, Sun, and Moon exist.

    3. The area where God's throne is.

    ***

    Since you dare to use the word "firmament", I assume you refer to the translation of "expanse" and not "vaulted dome", "vault of heaven", or the solid structure which "looks as molten glass", or that which resembles a "beaten metal mirror"?

    Lastly, why did you choose to address me like this in your prior post?

    And...
    Care to explain?
     
  14. Seve

    Seve Member

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    Dear Sky River,

    Please tell us exactly which of following cited verses below (inspired word of God) that you are having a hard time understanding as far as God making other heavens and earth a side from our present world - heaven and earth - that we now have...


    A Multiverse is composed of 2 or more Universes

    Gen. 1:6-8 tells us the first world (Universe-Cosmos-Heaven) was made on the SECOND Day.

    Gen. 2:4 shows that other HeavenS (Heaven is defined in Gen. 1:8) were made on the THIRD Day.

    That is 3 firmaments or boundaries of a Heaven (Cosmos, Universe-world) made by the 3rd Day.

    Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavenS and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

    Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
    v2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband
    .

    It's a Multiverse, alright.

    Therefore, consider yourself REFUTED! and CORRECTED!
     
    #74 Seve, Mar 25, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2019
  15. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    So before the Big Bang, air, dust and water existed, you say.

    How did it survive the singularity of the Big Bang?
    Was there a time, in your view, when there was no spacetime? Or does God require spacetime in order to exist?
    I assume you mean gas, solids and liquids - you neglect to take into account the other two known states of matter, plasmas and Bose-Einstein condensates; you don't mention the electromagnetic spectrum so there's no light in your domain; nor gravity nor the three forces.

    Before you attribute modern physics to Bronze Age Canaanites, it might be an idea to get a handle on modern physics first, no?
    It's not clear what parts of the Tanakh were written down when. Genesis implies preexisting sources, as eg shown by the two versions of creation clumsily edited together; the Noah tale is borrowed from Mesopotamia, probably Babylon, who borrowed it from the Sumerian, where it existed by c. 2500 BCE and likely earlier; and there are various other examples.[/QUOTE][/quote][/quote][/QUOTE]
     
    #75 blü 2, Mar 25, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2019
  16. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Since your parents apparently didn't mention it, I will: it's rude to shout.

    Even were you talking sense, it would be rude.
     
  17. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    But no one seems to know quite how that was done. How is energy created from literally nothing?
     
  18. Seve

    Seve Member

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    Correct, Adam' God is no other than YHWH himself, the Son of Almighty God Father - who is an invisible Spirit that no man hath seen at anytime... NOR His name has been revealed to anyone at this time...

    Those who tell you otherwise are just trying to force their traditional view to fit their doctrinal faith even if they are not supported by the Scripture.

    God bless,
     
  19. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    It is written in the ancient scriptures [The pseudepigrapha of the OT,] that the feet of Gods evolving son was on earth but his head was in heaven/paradise.

    The evolving mind that would inherit the new body of man, was the heavenly evolving mind and godhead of the Most-High species in the creation, the great upright walking reptile, who was created on the sixth period of universal activity/awakening, and who had ruled the earth for 3 million years, and no species can live that long without evolving a degree of intelligence. Step into a fire, he learned not to do that again.

    At the close of the third, fourth and fifth creative day = period of universal activity, the observer
    says that he was pleased with what he saw, then came the evening which preceded the next creative day,
    but on the sixth day, after the observer had watched the Logos become all the great beasts of the earth, which included the dinosaurs, it is written that he was pleased with what he saw, but evening does not follow immediately.

    The ‘LOGOS’ is the essential divine reality of the universe, the eternal spirit from which all being originates and to which all must return.

    Adam is created all alone, on a barren earth, not by “EL the creator God, but by “Jahel,” who is “Jah=Lord to the glory of EL the creator.” and although the seeds of the plants were still in the scorched earth, no rain had fallen, etc, etc.

    It's written in the ancient scriptures, that the feet of God's son were on earth but his head was in paradise, this was before the creation of mankind, but knowing the animal spirit of the lower place would be the destruction of his son who was evolving in paradise, God put his son (The spiritual evolving mind into a deep sleep, this was done by destroying the body of the most high creation on earth from which the spirits=information, were gathered in the formation of his spiritual Son in paradise.

    This was done by bringing all terrestrial life to a finish by a cataclysmic comet collision, and the last word from his forming son as he watched the earthly body from which he was being formed, brought to its finish, was “Mother.” The Lord then formed out of clay, an image of himself and commanded all the living spiritual godheads of the earthly species, which had been destroyed, to bow before his image, this was to be the division of all the spirits which had been gathered into the glorious heavenly simulacrum, the brilliant light body of God’s evolving heavenly Son, the pre-human Adam.

    Those who bowed before the image of God [The Sheep] were the enclosure of spirits of which Adam was their compilation. Those who refused to bow before the new creation, [The Goats] were the enclosure of spirits of which Eve was their compilation, and she was named after the last word spoken by God’s Son before he fell asleep, “Mother,” or that is to say “Eve,” which name means ‘Mother” of all those spirits who were cast back into the refining fires of physical life on earth.

    The great upright walking reptile, who was condemned henceforth to crawl in the dust, and who had been the compilation of all the spirits of both enclosures that were Adam and Eve, was then cast out of paradise and hurled down to the earth of the sixth period of universal activity from which the spirits of Adam's formation had been gathered.

    The spirit of the lower place (The sixth period of universal activity as opposed to the seventh day in which Adam was created) then understood that God was about to bring in a new creation, and he thought to bring Adam down, and in such form, that is THOUGHT, he was able to deceive Eve, but he couldn’t touch Adam.

    This was the spirit in Eve, who would learn through suffering to become perfect as he evolves within the body of Mankind to be born, “The Glorious Light being ‘The Son of Man.’

    From the Book of Adam and Eve: after Adam had been expelled from Paradise, and cast down to the lower place, the earth of the sixth creative day. "Adam answered, “What dost thou tell me? What have I done to thee, or what is my fault against thee? Seeing that thou hast received no harm or injury from us, why dost thou pursue us? The Devil replied, “Adam, what dost thou tell me? It is for thy sake that I have been hurled from that place. When thou wast formed, I was hurled out of the presence of God and banished from the company of the angels. When God blew into thee the breath of life, and thy face and thy likeness were made in the image of God, Michael also brought thee and made us worship thee in the sight of God; and God the Lord (Jahel or Lord to the glory of El the creator) spake: Here is Adam. I have made thee in our image and likeness.” And Michael went out and called all the angels saying: “Worship the image of God as the (Lord Jah) (God El) hath commanded.” And Michael himself worshipped first; then he called me and said, “Worship the image of God the Lord.” And I answered, “I have no need to worship Adam.” And since Michael kept urging me to worship, I said to him, “Why dost thou urge me?” I will not worship an inferior being than me. I am his senior in the creation; BEFORE HE WAS MADE I WAS ALREADY MADE. It is Adam’s duty to worship me.”

    When the angels who were under me, heard this, they also refused to worship Adam, And Michael saith, “Worship the image of God, (The Most High and Lord of Creatures) but if thou wilt not worship him, the Lord God will be wrath with thee.” But he, said, “If he be wrath with me, I will set my seat above the stars of heaven and will be like the highest himself.” And God the Lord was wrath with me and banished me and my angels from our glory; and on thy account, were we expelled from our abodes into this world and were hurled on the earth. And straight way we were overcome with grief, since we had been spoiled of so great glory. And we were grieved when we saw thee in such Joy and luxury (In the Garden of Eden). And with guile I (The Spiritual godhead of the upright walking serpent) cheated thy wife Eve and caused thee to be expelled through her doing from thy joy and luxury, as I have been driven out of my glory, etc. It is also written somewhere else in the Pseudepigrapha of the Old Testament, that after Satan had been hurled down to the earth of the sixth cycle of universal activity and while Adam was still in Paradise, the ruling spirit in the enclosure that was Eve whose pregnant body today has become the entire body of mankind, then understood that God was about to bring in a new creation and he thought to bring Adam down, and in such form [THOUGHT] he was able to deceive Eve, but he was unable to touch Adam.

    It is the evolving spirit of God’s Son, who is developing within the body of EVE, the expanded and pregnant androgynous body of Mankind, which body must endure great pains and tribulation before she bears, “The Son of Man,” the new androgynous body of light the evolves from mankind.

    It was he, who after being brought to perfection, descended from his heights in time, to be chosen as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, who said to Moses in Deuteronomy 18: 18-19; “I will raise up for them a prophet just like you from among their own brethren; and I will put MY WORDS into his mouth, and I will punish anyone who does not Heed MY WORDS which he shall speak in MY NAME.”

    And it was He, in John 17: 5; who, through the mouth of his earthly host body and obedient servant, ‘the Man Jesus,” cried out; “Father! Give me glory in your presence now, the same glory I had with you before this world was made.”

    The Kabbala describes four Adams the two highest of which are celestial and spiritual, "The third Adam is the terrestrial Adam made from the elements of the earth, and placed in the Garden of Eden. This Adam was also an androgene. . . . It had, when first created, a glorious simulacrum or light body, and answers to the Yetzeeratic world."----Ibid., p. 418.

    The fourth Adam was the Third Adam as he was after the Fall, when he was clothed with skin, flesh nerves etc. this answers to the Nephesh and Guff, i.e. body, united. He had the animal power of reproduction and continuance of species, and also answers to the Aseeyatic World, but in him is some of the light of all preceding Adams (Ages of mankind) Ibid., p. 418.

    In mankind is some of the light of all the preceding Adams.

    When the SON OF MAN, appears on the earth, will all the atheists and agnostics refuse to bow before him, saying; "We will not bow before a being inferior to we, before he was made, we were already made, it is he, who should bow before we."
     
    #79 The Anointed, Mar 25, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2019
  20. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    The Big Bang as it is called, was the beginning of time and space in this period of universal activity.

    The biblical account of creation, as recorded by the chosen earthly scribes who were under the control of the ever-evolving spirit in man, [THE SON OF MAN] was recorded in such a way that it was acceptable to all the ages of man, and is capable of adapting with the changing=evolving concepts of man according to the ever-growing accumulation of incoming data.

    For the Word of God can be likened to a star that’s being ever brightened
    By the mind of man reaching ever higher, but those who deviate they’re liars
    In God’s words man’s mind can grow, but those outside are like the snow
    That settles on the desert sand and will melt away before “I AM.” …..The Anointed.

    This is the condensed account of creation as recorded in Genesis’.....…”In the beginning God created the universe, and the (heavens, and the earth) were formless and void and darkness was upon the face of the deep and God’s active force was moving on the face of the waters. Then God said let there be light.”

    Here is the scientific theory of creation........In the beginning, there was the “BIG BANG” which is said to have spatially separated the supposed infinitely dense, infinitely hot, infinitesimally small singularity, which in my opinion was the White Hole at the end of the Great Abyss or Black Hole, into which the previous universe had descended, this event spewed out a liquid like plasma soup of electromagnetic energy in the trillions and trillions of degrees.

    It was from the quantum of that plasma liquid-like electromagnetic energy that the earth and all the heavenly bodies would be created, and although, all that the earth was created from, was already there in the beginning, the earth at that time had neither shape or mass, which meant it was formless and void, and no suns had yet come into existence to light up the darkness of the expanding space. But there was momentum within that ever-cooling cosmic cloud of wave particles, which wave particles are the quantum of that liquid like electromagnetic energy, and are not really particles at all as they have zero mass and no electric charge, yet they carry angular and linear momentum.

    One would expect, that those wave particles which are the quantum of the liquid like electromagnetic energy, would have continued to expand further and further away from each other in the expansion of the universal building material.

    But with the angular momentum of those waves, they collided with each other in nuclear fusion in the creation of the first basic sub-atomic particles. As the universal temperature dropped to some billions of degrees, the dark energy which was the expansion’s acceleration force, began to form into dark matter, hydrogen and helium, with trace quantities of lithium, beryllium, and boron.

    As the universe expanded and cooled, more hydrogen molecules were formed, and from these, after some thirty million years of attraction, came the formation of the first gigantic stars, [Massive atomic reactors} from which the galaxies would later be created.

    And God said, “Let there be light.” Which was not the light from the sun of this minor solar system within our Milky Way galaxy, which solar system would not be created for some nine billion years after those first-generation massive stars that lit up the darkness of the bottomless pit.

    Bursting into life and light throughout the primitive universe over an unknown period of time, those first generation stars would have been thousands upon thousands of times as massive as our Sun and millions of times as bright, but each one burned for only a few million years before meeting a violent end, when they exploded out in a brilliant flash before collapsing in upon themselves creating the massive centrally condensed systems called ‘Black Holes,’ in which the greater percentage of their mass was trapped.

    The first creative day ended as all those gigantic stars collapsed Those first gigantic stars, from which the galaxies would later be created and which would have been collapsing in upon themselves, and evening descended as the lights of the universe went out, and the black holes devoured each other, and darkness covered the contracting space.

    Although the ancients knew that there have been many universes before this one, science is just beginning to realise this fact.

    Another universe may have preceded ours, study finds. May 14th, 2006. Courtesy Penn State University and World Science staff.

    Three physicists say they have done calculations suggesting that before the birth of our universe, which is expanding, there was an earlier universe that was shrinking. To arrive at their pre-existing universe finding, Ashtekar’s group used loop quantum gravity, a theory that seeks to reconcile General relativity with quantum physics. ETC, ETC.
     
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