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Featured Discussing Genesis 1&2 - The Beginning

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Seve, Mar 24, 2019.

  1. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
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    I believe in the Bible and love Jesus so please try and understand that I agree with you on many things. My understanding is just different and you might not agree but this is a section for debating not DIR so I understand. we can share how we each see it.

    But I’m here to learn too and I always like Christians and welcome them in my home to preach to me. I consider Christians my friends and brothers including you so God bless.
     
  2. Seve

    Seve Member

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    Yeah, right... (shaking my head continually)

    As I have said before, the continuing conversation on this thread is about "Discussing Genesis 1&2 - The Beginning".. and it has nothing to do with your ASSUMPTION about the "new cycle" of our time... because of the appearance of your so called false prophet - Baha’u’llah in 1863.

    By the way.... Do you need a dictionary to look up the meaning of the words -The Beginning - for continuing discussion? No? Therefore, you understand that you are off the topic, correct?

    Also, here's the prophecy written in the Book of Daniel..even before Bahaullah time - as many people know Bahaullah is considered as one of the many false prophets of our modern era - who got the audacity to give credit to himself for what you claims to be Bahaullah's "New Cycle" .. in expense of the Scriptural teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ .... (shaking my head...tsk...tsk...tsk)

    Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

    NICE TRY BUT NO CIGAR.
     
    #42 Seve, Mar 25, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2019
  3. wellwisher

    wellwisher Active Member

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    The main problem with discussing Genesis is connected to most people barking up the wrong tree and thereby drawing the wrong conclusions. If you bark up the wrong tree, and there is no squirrel in that tree, does that mean that the squirrel did not exist? The analogy of discussing Genesis, is like using the valid science observations of cosmology, and then assume this is referring to the ocean. This wrong tree for the data would make even the science of cosmology appear like mythology.

    Darkness and light; let there be light, are metaphors for the unconscious and conscious minds, respectively. It is not coincidence that the time line of Genesis; based on science and carbon dating, coincides with the formation of the first stable civilizations and the invention of writing. A new heaven; unconscious firmware, and earth; ego, is connected to changes in human consciousness and the unconscious psyche.

    For humans to go from 1 million plus years of being migratory, hunters, gatherers and herders; natural instinct; evolution, to all the differences needed for stable civilization, something had to change in the brain and/or human psyche to make this possible. You cannot just go into the Amazon rain forest and take out a primitive tribe and expect them to form a modern country, unless the brain and psyche changed quickly. Everyone is assuming a materialistic explanation; cosmology of the ocean, thereby missing the boat. The change had less to due with biology, as it did with changes in the human psyche, that lead to profound changes in perception and human nature; Adam.

    Genesis is symbolism that discusses the birth of the modern conscious mind ; ego, and the various changes in the brain's firmware that will power induced, from which a new type of human appears. Adam being formed from the dust of the earth shows this is not a biological change. Herdsmen understand how to make babies. If we do a scientific investigation of the earliest civilizations, there were no distinct differences in the human body, but there are many changes in terms of artifacts connected to behavior and invention.

    As an analogy, say you had a computer that was programmed to do various tasks. It controls your house, your schedule and many other things, based on optimized factory settings; natural. One day you decide to add a secondary terminal; ego, that is connected and interacts with the first computer. The terminal has a high level of autonomy and can make choices, while being connected to the first computer's feedback system. The result is the original programming in the main frame, in terms of subroutines, will start to change, as choices from the terminal alter the original parameters; evolving a new heaven and earth. The change starts at fundamental levels; day 1, then get more specific as earlier changes take hold.

    Mythology is a projection from the unconscious psyche. The characters and their activity are aspects of the firmware. As such, mythology maps out how the firmware of the unconscious mind at a particular point in time. As the firmware changes so will the mythology. For example, the characters of the Titan mythology where larger than life and very raw, similar to a wild spirit. The Olympians which supersede them are more humanistic. This reflects the evolution of the firmware, as a function of induced ego changes.

    The story of Genesis is about when the ego terminal first appears, and starts to altered the natural cause and affect of the natural man, thereby altering the natural programming. The choice to eat of the forbidden tree shuts off conscious connection to the natural DNA firmware. This change is reflected in the evolving mythology and the various pitfalls discussed within later parts of Genesis. The ego's will and the changes within the the psyche does not always means for the best. This aspect of the story is the main problem for atheism. They prefer discount this message, by barking up the wrong tree. Willower has evolutionary advantages, but not all choices are progressive to the natural firmware. Religions are there to attempt to align chose with the needs of evolution in the natural firmware.
     
  4. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    If you don't know the answer to my question, if you don't know when in the Genesis account spacetime came into being, if you don't know what physicists mean by 'spacetime', just say, I don't know.

    Blathering on helps neither you nor me.
     
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  5. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    The earth wasn't flat before the flood. The Euphrates River basin was flat.
     
  6. Seve

    Seve Member

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    Dear wellwisher,

    While most of my Biblical Stands seem very peculiar compared to Traditional view, I always try to support whatever I post with Scripture, Science or History, if needed be. Just like the other Christian poster here, I am also a Bible believing Christian.

    It's simple to know if one's interpretation is correct. If it agrees with God's Holy Word, true Science, and History, it's as close to the One Truth as is Humanly possible. The fault is Not with God's Truth, but with man's ability to understand it, for His thoughts are far above man's thoughts.

    That's why I seek the agreement of every other discovered Truth, to measure against God's Holy Word. There is Only 1 Truth, and every other discovered Truth MUST agree with God's Truth or we have Not found the 1 Truth.

    I also love to see other Christian's views, for that is the way we learn. The Holy Spirit reveals one thing to me and something else to another. Listen to the Old Songs, and read the words, and you will see the Holy Spirit in action.

    When we all get together, in Heaven, we will come to know All of the Truth. Jesus told us "I am the Truth". I can hardly wait to know God's Truth, face to face. How bout you.

    You are welcome to join the discussion, if you wish.

    God bless
     
  7. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    The applaichian mountains are 300 to 500 million years old.
     
  8. Seve

    Seve Member

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    I have provided you with answers that you intentionally EDITED and cut-off, therefore, you don't deserve further explanation.... unless you elaborate further... exactly what you want to know with regards to "spacetime" relevant to the continuing topic..
     
    #48 Seve, Mar 25, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2019
  9. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Let's test that.

    In one short sentence: in your view, at what point in the Genesis account of creation does spacetime as such come into being?
     
  10. Seve

    Seve Member

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    The Big Bang or the beginning of our Universe was on the 3rd Day. Gen 2:4 The first Stars appeared hundreds of millions of years later on the 4th Day. Gen 1:16 This scientific discovery is very recent.

    Can you tell us HOW ancient men like Moses knew about this scientific relativity?
     
  11. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    The Pentateuch had many authors and was written , redacted and amended many times 800 years after the death of Moses. Further, the Hebrews were creating a history and identity for themselves.. as well as laws and rituals that would set them apart from their neighbors. But, they borrowed heavily from the more prosperous and powerful civilizations around them .. Babylon, Sumer, Egypt and Assyria.. aka the north coast Canaanites.
     
  12. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    For God's sake. The earth wasn't flat. How could you be so silly? The Great Smokie Mountains are 300 to 500 million years old. The rift that created the Dead Sea is 35 million years old. The escarpment in Arabia is 70 million years old. The Red Sea is still slowly getting wider. The Himalayas are still pushing up taller and taller. You must not teach falsehood to children. You don't have to reject science and education to be a Christian.
     
  13. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    I don't understand your answer.

    Are you saying that spacetime came into existence before the Big Bang? When, precisely?

    And you appear to be saying that the earth existed before the Big Bang, since the creation of the earth is the second event in Genesis 1:1. How could that be?
    I assume you're familiar with the archaeology that casts severe doubt on an Egyptian captivity and an historical Moses existing at all?

    But the evidence is clear that back in the early biblical times, let's loosely say around 1200 BCE, no concept of the universe existed at all ─ throughout the bible the cosmology is consistent and describes a flat earth (in one version round like a plate, in another with corners like a table), immovably fixed at the center of creation, with a hard dome (the firmament) over it to which the heavenly bodies were affixed such that if they came loose they'd fall to earth, and by which they rotated around the earth. >Here< is a selection of bible quotes illustrating these points.

    Even if some Moses equivalent existed, he, like everyone else, had not the slightest idea of the Big Bang, or singularities, or the formation of the elements in first generation stars, or the existence of galaxies, or the rotation of the earth, or the earth's orbit around the sun, or the nature of the planets.
     
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  14. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    Moses may or may not have existed.. He may be a literary device.. or, He may be based on the much older romantic story of Sinuhe the Egyptian physician.
     
  15. Seve

    Seve Member

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    Who told you that our earth is flat? Are you that guilable? Don't try to misrepresent my Biblical Stand... if you do not understand my postings, ASK!.
     
  16. Seve

    Seve Member

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    Don't even try to assume what you think I was saying ... especially when you don't have my actual quote.

    READ MY LIPS....


    NO PLANET EXISTED ON GENESIS 1:1 - INCLUDING THE MATHEMATICAL RELATIVITY OF OUR "SPACETIME" on the 1st & 2nd Day of Genesis. The BB happened on the 3rd Day of Genesis.

    Again don't be too lazy - do your DD.. read my OP and stop wasting my time repeating your question that I have already provided an answer (in advance) in my original post.


    Correct, simply because our God is the Author of the Book of Genesis. It's a proof of God existence!
     
    #56 Seve, Mar 25, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2019
  17. MJFlores

    MJFlores Well-Known Member

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    I was trying to make sense of what your thread was after.
    It was not about creation really but it is about your position that Jesus is God.

    We could not jump into conclusion using a verse and go against another verse in the Bible.
    There must be no conflict between verses.
    Otherwise we would be cherry picking verses and avoiding the others saying another thing.
    If that is so your bible would have many redactions and cut outs.
    biblecuts.jpg
    Because you want to ignore those or it runs conflict with your agenda.

    But before we begin, I would like to ask you three [3] questions answerable by Yes or No.
    1. Is Jesus the Father?
    2. Is Jesus the Holy Spirit?
    3. Is Jesus the Son?
    You don't need to prove your position, just answer them either by Yes or No.
    Then we would explore these things.
     
  18. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    In the beginning, says Genesis 1:1, God created the heaven and the earth.

    However, that's all bulldust, you say? In the beginning God did NOT create the earth, you say?

    Then what DID God create 'in the beginning' (other than 'the heavens')?

    And, since this was before the Big Bang, where exactly did [he] create it?
     
    #58 blü 2, Mar 25, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2019
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  19. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Well, his name has various interpretations but one of them is Egyptian 'son' (just as Pharaoh Ramesses is Ra+ m*s*s, son of Ra). His post-natal adventures in the basket down the river are modeled on the Akkadian yarn about Sargon the Great. Mo and Aaron turn the river Nile into real blood, but only after Pharaoh's magicians have done it first blah blah. Stuff of legend, indeed.

    (By golly, when I was 13 I thought Mika Waltari's Sinuhe the Egyptian was a cracking read!)
     
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  20. Seve

    Seve Member

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    Dear blü 2,

    Here's what Gen 1:1-2 is saying for your additional learning:

    In the context of Genesis 1:1-2, I see the narrative as saying:

    Gen 1:1-2 In the beginning God Created the heaven (Hebrew - Air) and the Earth (Hebrew -Ground). And the Earth (Ground) was without form, (Dust) and void; (Empty) and darkness was upon the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

    IOW, the Invisible Almighty God first CREATED the elements needed in order for His Son to physically make/form the HeavenS and the Earth with his own hand - like a Potter would mold a clay.

    The Scripture did NOT specifically mention the exact location where God created these elements needed to make our worlds - but where ever it is... it is OUTSIDE of our own "spacetime" since, it happened before the BB.

    The 3 elements necessary for all physical form are shown... Air, Dust, and Water. Everything which is physical is composed of these 3 elements. The text is correct in showing that the water was not directly created, or spoken into being, because it consists of elements of the Air or Atmosphere. Water is Hydrogen and Oxygen and came from the Atmosphere and is not shown as a separate creation.

    This is correct in today's scientific knowledge, but IF the Scriptures were written by Ancient men, Moses would not have known this. He would have written that in the beginning God created the Air, Dust, and Water, but since God Himself is the Author, He correctly shows that the Atmosphere and Ground were created, and the Water was not a separate creation but instead, came from the Atmosphere.
     
    #60 Seve, Mar 25, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2019
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