Discrimination

[Melody]

At the risk of being labeled a racist.....

How do you define "discrimination" and "racism".

While watching tv the other night, I saw an ad for the United Negro College Fund....yet I know if we started an organization called the United Caucasian College Fund, we would be labeled racist and would be considered discriminatory.

A few years back, I went to a teacher's job fair and stood in line with hundreds of other people interviewing with various school districts from across the country. About an hour into the 8 hour long day, the interviewers started going down the line and pulling out all the black applicants who were then given preferential hiring treatment. If they had gone down the line and pulled out only white applicants, they would have been labeled racist and would be considered discriminatory.

While in college, we had some sororities and fraternities that were black only. Whites were not permitted to join. If the other sororities and fraternities had put up a "no minority" sign, they would have been labeled racist and would be considered discriminatory.

When does affirmative action stop being "affirmative" and start being racial discrimination in reverse?

I'm looking for a serious debate here, not some knee jerk reaction on how racist everyone is. Please define racist and discrimination as you see it.

 

[James the Persian]

Well I think that affirmative discrimination is still racism (unless it's sexism or some other form of discrimination, but I'm sure you know what I mean). More importantly, perhaps, I think it's counter productive and does more harm to the minority than good - it simply fuels hatreds against the groups by allowing the prejudiced to be able to say 'Look, they get a better deal than we do. It's not fair'. All such discrimination should be banned in my opinion. Discrimination is discrimination and is always wrong, even if the ends towards which it is addressed are good ones.

James

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Racism and religious laws work both ways in the uk.
You can not advertise by race. colour or religion or sex (there are a few jobs where sex discrimination is permitted, say working in a ladies only sauna.)
Public clubs, societies, etc must be open to all. (this would cover university clubs.)
Private members clubs may be selective in membership, but not in who they employ.


Terry__________________________
Amen! Truly I say to you: Gather in my name. I am with you.

 

[Aqualung]

Well I think that affirmative discrimination is still racism (unless it's sexism or some other form of discrimination, but I'm sure you know what I mean). More importantly, perhaps, I think it's counter productive and does more harm to the minority than good - it simply fuels hatreds against the groups by allowing the prejudiced to be able to say 'Look, they get a better deal than we do. It's not fair'. All such discrimination should be banned in my opinion. Discrimination is discrimination and is always wrong, even if the ends towards which it is addressed are good ones.

James

You said exactly what I wanted to say. Discrimination is still discrimination even if it goes in the other direction. Quotas are bad. Then people will sacrifice hiring a better person just so they can meet their quotas.

 

[alowyn]

Yes, i agree completely! I am completely infuriated by the concept of 'affirmative action' - AKA compensatory discrimination in South Africa, because it means that MY qualifications and abilities mean a rat's tail because i'm a white male. So if i was to apply for a job, i would be passed in favour of a black woman, whether or not she is the best person for the job.

Rather than this hypocritical system, i say our government should stop wasting money (and believe me, down here a lot is wasted through corruption) and invest more in the education so that the person who is selected for the job over my application IS THE BEST PERSON FOR THE JOB!

To me, discrimination is the placing a person or group of people at a disadvantage over others, or treating them in a worse manner.
Racism is hatred/discrimination directed at certain races.

 

[robtex]

At the risk of being labeled a racist.....
How do you define "discrimination" and "racism".

Actually in the context of the post I want to make a very important distinction. There is two ways of looking at discrimmination/racism

1) How it is defined

but more importantly

2) how it is used.

Political speech writers realize that certain words innovoke more emotion not their denoation but by their connotation espcially when the word, like the word "discrimmination" is subjective in its connotation. The cultural use of a word or ideas and more importanly feelings associated with it can bring about a desired repsonse by an audiance if the connotation is largely seen as postitive or negative.

These words are seen as "power words" and political orgainzations actually have lists of such words that get a desired emotional reaction through connotation. For instance largely used powerwords in politics are "communists" "unilateral" "american" unamerican" ect ect. I wanted to find a link but cannot haven't found one and I am sorta short on time so maybe later.

The same concept is used in sales. Words like "buying power" " asset allocation" "consumer oriented" which actually by themselves mean nothing have a positive connotation and are used by many sales organizations.

Such is the case with the word discrimination . The reality of our nature is we discriminate as a means of association. We discriminate shades or red from shades of blue. We discriminate intorvertes from extroverts, friendly dogs from scary ones and everything inbetween . But the connotation, as I understand it of discrimination is the unfair classification of a groups ablity to preform work or contribute to society based on gener, sex, religious preferance or sexual orientation. That is quite a narrow scope to look at such a broad word.

Usually when I am reading a speech, or listining to one and the word "discriminate" shows up I am looking as to the motive for the use of this powerword.

footnote for post
http://www.bartleby.com/61/72/C0577200.html

 

[Darkdale]

Personally, I am extremely angry over race relations in this country to the point where I no longer have any sympathy for anyone. I don't think affirmative action was ever a good idea, what we should have done is aggressively pursued cases of discrimination. There is no equality anymore. In Sweden, you can be put in jail for speaking negatively about Arabs, but there is no protection for white folk against hate speech. America isn't far behind. ugh... too mad to discuss this seriously. gah.

 

[michel]

Personally, I am extremely angry over race relations in this country to the point where I no longer have any sympathy for anyone. I don't think affirmative action was ever a good idea, what we should have done is aggressively pursued cases of discrimination. There is no equality anymore. In Sweden, you can be put in jail for speaking negatively about Arabs, but there is no protection for white folk against hate speech. America isn't far behind. ugh... too mad to discuss this seriously. gah.

Oh dear, this is a world 'sickness' then ? - what you say about Sweden sounds much as what we have here. I cannot (nor would I want to) say something rude about a black or a brown man, but he is free to call me whatever he wishes to.

 

[Darkdale]

Oh dear, this is a world 'sickness' then ? - what you say about Sweden sounds much as what we have here. I cannot (nor would I want to) say something rude about a black or a brown man, but he is free to call me whatever he wishes to.

It's a dangerous direction for people to take. Folk in my part of the world aren't going to go along peacefully with anything that violates our freedom of speech, or that treats one group of folk differently from another.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Folk in my part of the world aren't going to go along peacefully with anything that violates our freedom of speech, or that treats one group of folk differently from another.

Out of curiosity, to what part of the world are you referring?

 

[Radar]

Yes, i agree completely! I am completely infuriated by the concept of 'affirmative action' - AKA compensatory discrimination in South Africa, because it means that MY qualifications and abilities mean a rat's tail because i'm a white male. So if i was to apply for a job, i would be passed in favour of a black woman, whether or not she is the best person for the job.

Rather than this hypocritical system, i say our government should stop wasting money (and believe me, down here a lot is wasted through corruption) and invest more in the education so that the person who is selected for the job over my application IS THE BEST PERSON FOR THE JOB!

To me, discrimination is the placing a person or group of people at a disadvantage over others, or treating them in a worse manner.
Racism is hatred/discrimination directed at certain races.

How do the colored people fit in? Are they treated with preferance? I don't agree with any type quotas or discrimination no matter what direction it is going.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I cannot (nor would I want to) say something rude about a black or a brown man, but he is free to call me whatever he wishes to.

This is, of course, bigoted nonsense.

 

[Faint]

MTV has the right idea.

MTV also has a lot of problems, but one thing that the Viacom channels have done well has been to chip away at racism in the U.S. MTV has shaped our culture significantly. I've noticed in my own generation (as well as the following one) that people don't seem to care so much what your ethnic background is. I think part of this is because we've grown up with MTV, which does not define people by their skin color. Also, they tend to mix everyone together as though there is no such thing as race. Watch the channel and you'll see people of every color interacting (whether on a reality show, TRL, or one of the few music videos still in rotation). There are interracial relationships of every kind (even homosexual). To me, this is the ideal. I think one of the biggest reasons we still have racism is because some people still insist on treating others differently because of their skin color. Affirmative Action only adds to this problem, as does any public or private club that distinguishes members by hue.

 

[michel]

This is, of course, bigoted nonsense.

I am sorry, Jay, do you mean that I am talking 'Bigoted nonsense' ?

 

[ChrisP]

At the risk of being labeled a racist.....

How do you define "discrimination" and "racism".

While watching tv the other night, I saw an ad for the United Negro College Fund....yet I know if we started an organization called the United Caucasian College Fund, we would be labeled racist and would be considered discriminatory.

A few years back, I went to a teacher's job fair and stood in line with hundreds of other people interviewing with various school districts from across the country. About an hour into the 8 hour long day, the interviewers started going down the line and pulling out all the black applicants who were then given preferential hiring treatment. If they had gone down the line and pulled out only white applicants, they would have been labeled racist and would be considered discriminatory.

While in college, we had some sororities and fraternities that were black only. Whites were not permitted to join. If the other sororities and fraternities had put up a "no minority" sign, they would have been labeled racist and would be considered discriminatory.

When does affirmative action stop being "affirmative" and start being racial discrimination in reverse?

I'm looking for a serious debate here, not some knee jerk reaction on how racist everyone is. Please define racist and discrimination as you see it.

Swings and roundabouts mate!

I think it's the same everywhere, we have plenty of Maori funds and scholarships, but there's no way we caucasians could do that without repercussions.

Incidentally "Pakeha" the Maori name for white folks, means white pig, and is the official whiteperson designation on our census.

So yeah, you think you got it bad. :*( I'm now a second class citizen who is told he is an outsider , in a country my family has lived in for 7 generations.

 

[Melody]

Ok....let's take it up a step. It's apparent that I'm not the only one who thinks affirmative action is reverse discrimination and not the solution to inequalities.

So, the next question is, do you believe racial discrimination exists in our society and, if so, how do you think it should be dealt with?

 

[scitsofreaky]

It depends on what you consider our society to be. There are still racists within our society, but I don't think that racism exists in society. Pop culture is full of racial pride, which to me is a sign of acceptance of other races because it isnt' a separation of different cultures and races but an understanding that all races and cultures are beautiful in their own way.
As far as those racists in sociey go, the best way to combat them is education. Racism is based on fear, and fear is based on ignrance.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Not as severe as racism or sexism, but I have noticed people watch me very closly when I were my trench coat to a store like walmart or best buy. I can stand in the same CD aisle at best buy, and be asked if I need any help by 10 different people. People are always watching me. I felt like teaching a guy to keep his mouth quite about certain opinions when he asked me if I had any guns under my coat when I was standing in line at Arbys to get my check. He then said it caused him to have flashbacks to the news stories he heard about Columbine.
Obviously that is not that bad, but descrimination comes in many forms.

 

[Melody]

It depends on what you consider our society to be. There are still racists within our society, but I don't think that racism exists in society.

How can racism in society not exist, if racists do....since the tenor of a society is determined by the inhabitants of that society?

Could you explain this further because I'm not exactly sure I understand what you're saying.

 

[Melody]

Yes, discrimination is not just racial. You can be discriminated against because you're too fat, too short, too thin, too tall, too redheaded, too blond, too christian, not christian enough, too jewish, too muslim, etc.

For the sake of this debate, let's limit this to racial discrimination.