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Discourse On The Trinity Mystery With Three Questions:

Discussion in 'Christianity DIR' started by iris89, Dec 27, 2004.

  1. FerventGodSeeker

    FerventGodSeeker Believer

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  2. Quiddity

    Quiddity UndertheInfluenceofGiants

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    Perhaps another thread on Apostolic Authority? Defining terms and all.
     
  3. jaareshiah

    jaareshiah Member

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    FerventGodSeeker,
    When a CEO of a company travels to another land, does he have less authority ? No. Hence, if Jesus were God, even in the flesh, that would mean that he still could command angels according to his will. Would he then have to "appeal to my Father to supply me at this moment more than twelve legions of angels" just hours before his death, if he were God ?(Matt 26:53) Too, how is it that Jesus is "given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him", long after his return to heaven, if he is God ?(Dan 7:13) Since God is called "King of eternity", at 1 Timothy 1:17 and Revelation 15:3, how Jesus be "given rulership and dignity and kingdom" from the "Ancient of Days", God himself, and then later hand it back over to God, as Paul noted at 1 Corinthians 15:24, if Jesus is God ?
    And of Philippians 2:6, the apostle Paul did not say that Jesus was God, but that he was in the "form of God", that is a spirit, and also that, according to the rendering by many Bibles, that Jesus "did not consider it robbery to be equal with God". Hence, how could Jesus not even consider or desire to "be equal with God" and at the same time be God ? Would he have to consider it if he were already God Almighty ? For those who are reasonable, these can readily recognize that one cannot be with someone and at the same time be that person. Too, after his return to heaven, to whom had Jesus been loyal, so as to have been "exalted...to a superior position and kindly (given) the name that is above every [other] name" ?(Phil 2:9)
    In the illustration at Luke 14:7-11 of a "marriage feast", the "man" that was "exalted" did not exalt himself but rather was told by the man that invited him "
    Friend, go on up higher". Then Jesus says that "For everyone that exalts himself will be humbled and he that humbles himself will be exalted." Hence, did the man "exalt" himself ? Was he not invited to "go on up higher" by the man of the house. Likewise, Jesus did not "exalt" himself, but rather was "exalted...to a superior position" by his Father, God. If before he came to the earth, he was God, as many suppose, then how could he be given a "superior position" upon returning to heaven ?
    The Bible stands on it's own grounds and not Trinitarian Theology, for Jesus clearly told Satan that "man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God".(Matt 4:4 American Standard Version) Thus, the belief that Jesus is "fully man and fully God" does not "hold water". Too, Jesus has not "at different times acted in one of His two natures". The apostle Paul wrote that "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today, and forever".(Heb 13:8) He does not swing back and forth as you portray him, but rather he is the same always. Not once did he speak as God as you say he did ! Rather, he always gave the honor to his Father, God. When a man called him "Good teacher" Jesus replied: "Why do you call me good? Nobody is good, except one, God".(Mark 10:17,18) He thus sought out no honor for himself. That is why he told the Jews that "I always do the things pleasing to" God.(John 8:29) Not once did he speak of his own initiative, saying "that I do nothing of my own initiative; but just as the Father taught me I speak these things".(John 8:28) Isaiah 40:13,14 says of God retorically: " Who hath directed the Spirit of Jehovah, or being his counsellor hath taught him? With whom took he counsel, and who instructed him, and taught him in the path of justice, and taught him knowledge, and showed to him the way of understanding? " (American Standard Version) Hence, God, whose name is Jehovah, has no need of a teacher. Yet Jesus clearly said that he was "taught" by his Father. This would mean that he was a student of Jehovah God, with God being his teacher.
    At Hebrews 10, the apostle Paul wrote of Jesus, saying: "Hence when he comes into the world he says: "‘Sacrifice and offering you did not want, but you prepared a body for me. You did not approve of whole burnt offerings and sin [offering].’ Then I said, ‘Look! I am come (in the roll of the book it is written about me) to do your will, O God.’"(Heb 10:5-7) Thus Jesus fulfilled Psalms 40:6-8, written under inspiration by King David over a thousand years before Jesus arrival on the earth. So how could he prophetically be spoken of as coming to do God's will while still in heaven, if he is God ?
    And you say that "Christ also raised himself up.They worked cooperatively to perform this". This is not what the Bible says, for Peter, on the day of Pentecost, told the crowd listening that "God resurrected him by loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to continue to be held fast by it".(Acts 2:24) He then said that "This Jesus God resurrected, of which fact we are all witnesses".(Acts 2:32) Paul later told the Jews at Antioch that "that God has entirely fulfilled it to us their children in that he resurrected Jesus; even as it is written in the second psalm, ‘You are my son, I have become your Father this day."(Acts 13:33) Furthermore, the apostle Paul told the men in Athens that "God has overlooked the times of such ignorance, yet now he is telling mankind that they should all everywhere repent. Because he has set a day in which he purposes to judge the inhabited earth in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed, and he has furnished a guarantee to all men in that he has resurrected him from the dead."(Acts 17:30,31) Thus, Christ did not raise himself up, but his Father, God did. As a result of Jesus loyalty to God, Peter says that "he was exalted to the right hand of God and received the promised holy spirit from the Father".(Acts 2:33) How could Jesus be God and be "exalted to the right hand of God" and then receive the "promised holy spirit from the Father" ?
    When Jesus was hanging on the torture stake, he "called out with a loud voice, saying: "E´li, E´li, la´ma sa·bach·tha´ni?" that is, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" (Matt 27:46) Why would he say "my God, why have you forsaken me" if he were "fully man and fully God" ?
    Some twenty years after Jesus death and resurrection, the apostle Paul wrote that "I want you to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God".(1 Cor 11:3) How could Jesus be God and yet have a "head" after his return to the heavens ?
    The apostle Peter, some thirty years after Jesus' death, wrote that "he (Jesus) received from God the Father honor and glory, when words such as these were borne to him by the magnificent glory: "This is my son, my beloved, whom I myself have approved." (2 Pet 1:17) Thus, Peter, without hesitation, recognized that Jesus was indeed God's Son. If Jesus were God, would he need to receive ' approval ' from God or receive "honor and glory" from God the Father ? When asked by Jesus who he was, Peter replied that "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." (Matt 16:16) He clearly distinguished Jesus as the Son from his Father, the "living God".
    Some sixty five years after Jesus resurrection, Jesus said that "Be thou watchful, and establish the things that remain, which were ready to die: for I have found no works of thine perfected before my God".(Rev 3:2 American Standard Version) How could Jesus say that the works or deeds of those in Sardis were not perfected "before my God" if he were God ?
    And on John 1:1, there is no "the"(Greek ton) before the second occurence of "god", only before the first, this being a definite article. The Emphatic Diaglott, based on the Vatican 1209 manuscript and the renown Greek scholars B.F. Westcott and F.J.A. Hort's interlinear reading prove this to be the case. Too, how can Jesus be God and at the same time be in the "beginning with God" ? Too, why is Jesus called the "Word of God" ? He is God's chief spokesman.
    And of John 10:30, many fail to look more closely at what Jesus what actually giving insight into, for if one says that God and Jesus are one in a Godhead, then that would mean that Jesus' disciples are also "one", for Jesus said in prayer to his Father: "I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one".(John 17:22) Within the same breath, Jesus put his disciples as being "one just as we are one". What as he praying to his Father about ? Verse 23 says: "I in union with them and you in union with me, in order that they may be perfected into one". Can you grasp that Jesus was not speaking about literal oneness, but about oneness in unity ? Many, therefore, without considering the whole Bible, look at the Scriptures and draw a biased opinion.
    As with any court case, the jury must decide fairly and justly whether someone is guilty or innocent. Likewise all who look closely into the Bible, must judge fairly, without bias or prejudice, based on all the facts, not distortions, as to Jesus position. Not once did Jesus in any way intimate that he was God, but rather God's only-begotten Son, saying to Nicodemas that "God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life".(John 3:16) To begat means clearly to have a beginning, for what son never had a beginning ? This does not take a doctorate degree to grasp.
    I need not say anymore, for what has been explained is sufficient for those who wish to reason objectively. Like Jesus, who did "not wrangle, nor cry aloud", I too, will let what has been expressed stand on it's weight.(Matt 12:19)






     
  4. Polaris

    Polaris Active Member

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    FerventGodSeeker,

    At Victor's request I have posted my response in a new thread entitled "Apostolic Succession" in the Christianity forum.
     
  5. FerventGodSeeker

    FerventGodSeeker Believer

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  6. FerventGodSeeker

    FerventGodSeeker Believer

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    Well that's an interesting claim...all I did was cite Bible verse of Jesus speaking to the Father...if you have a problem with what the Scriptures plainly state, that's another issue.

    Yes, those are all lovely verses demonstrating the fact that Jesus had a human nature and at times acted in that human nature. However, it does not negate His divine nature, which at times He also acted in accordance with.

    Indeed, the Father was His teacher in His human nature. But did you forget the verses that I already cited for you, concerning Christ's knowledge in His divine nature?
    "Now we are sure that You know all things, and have no need that anyone should question You." John 16:30
    "And he(Peter) said to Him (Jesus), 'Lord You know all things; You know that I love You.' " John 21:17

    Because it's a prophecy, obviously. A prophecy speaks of a future event. Thus, a prophecy can speak of future conditions that are different from conditions in the present. Thus, while Jesus was God in the Old Testament, He could be spoken of as doing God's will in the future in human form.


    Those are all great verses showing that the Father raised up Christ, which I fully agree with. But they ignore the other half of the equation.

    "Jesus said, 'Destroy this temple (reference to His body), and I will raise it up.' " John 2:19
    You conveniently ignored this verse in your response, which I posted for you last time...and yet it still remains God's Word. Christ did in fact raise Himself up, in cooperation with the Father.

    I already posted in this thread the meaning of "right hand of God", which is figurative; it does not literally mean that Jesus stood on God's physical right side. It is an indication of power and authority. Jesus could be given these things because He was in a human form, and then that human form was glorified when Christ was resurrected. Thus, in totally perfecting Christ's human nature, He was "exalted to the right hand of God" and received the "promised holy spirit from the Father".

    Again, I'd just like to point out that Jesus says, "MY God"...Christ was totally unique and claimed a personal, equal relationship with the Father. The Father had to forsake Christ while Christ was on the cross, because for the first time, Christ took on sin for the world. The Father, who remained without sin through the crucifixion, had to look away for the first time from the Son.




    FerventGodSeeker
     
  7. FerventGodSeeker

    FerventGodSeeker Believer

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    Some twenty years after Jesus death and resurrection, the apostle Paul wrote that "I want you to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God".(1 Cor 11:3) How could Jesus be God and yet have a "head" after his return to the heavens ?
    [/quote]
    Saint Chrysostom once said, "Since the head is of the same essece as the body, and God is the head of the Son, the Son must be the same essence as the Father." As I've explained, Christ took on a submissive role to the Father. He continues to do so in heaven, as an Advocate (1 John 2:1). Due to the fact that He acts as Mediator for us humans with the Father, He acts in a subservient role to the Father in that respect. This does not negate His divinity.

    Yes, He would. God the Father's recognition and approval of Christ validated Christ's work on earth and His role as Messiah and Savior.

    Absolutely, just as the Church distinguishes between the Father and the Son. Remember however, that the Bible calls Jesus "our great God and Savior" (Titus 2:13), and "the eternally blessed God" (Romans 9:5). They are different Persons, yet One God.

    Because, once again, Christ took on a Mediatorial, submissive role to the Father. This does not negate Christ's divinity. The very fact that Christ will judge everyone proves that He must be God. "Let the heavens declare His righteousness, for God Himself is Judge." Psalm 50:6
    And, as I already explained, this is due to the fact that the second occurrence of "God" is the predicate of the sentence, yet occurs at the beginning of the phrase for emphasis. In this case, no "the" is necessary, because "God" is being used as an adjective to indicate that Christ is deity.

    Funny how the JW Emphatic Diaglott can be based on writings from the Vatican, and yet the beliefs of the writers of the text totally contradict what the Vatican teaches through its manuscripts...Wouldn't the Vatican know best what the Vatican publishes?;)

    He can be in the beginning with God because different Persons are being discussed here. He was in the beginning with the Father, but they were together One God. Jesus is called the Word of God, because, as you note, He is God the Father's spokesman. Note what Christ says:
    "Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father." John 6:46
    As we can see, no human has seen the Father before, only Christ has seen Him. Yet, numerous times through the Old Testament, God was seen:
    "I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, as God Almighty..." Exodus 6:3
    "So the LORD spoke to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend." Exodus 33:11

    So, God Himself was seen repeatedly throughout the Old Testament, yet Christ says it was not the Father, since no one has seen the Father at any time. So, if it was God, but not the Father, who was it? Clearly, it must have been the Father's spokesman, Christ, who also was and is God.


    Also, I have a few other questions for you:

    The Bible says that: The heavens are the work of God’s hands (Ps 102:25), the heavens are the work of Jesus’ hand (Heb 1:10); God laid the foundations of the earth (Isa 48:13), Jesus laid the foundations of the earth (Heb 1:10); God is our judge (Ps 50:6, Eccl 12:14, 1Chron 16:33), Jesus is our judge (2Tim 4:1, Rev 20:12); God is the temple of the New Jerusalem (Rev 21:22), Jesus (the Lamb) is the temple of the New Jerusalem (Rev 21:22); God is the alpha and omega (Rev 1:8), Jesus is the alpha and omega (Rev 22:13); God is the first and last (Isa 44:6, 48:12), Jesus is the first and last (Rev 22:13); God is the beginning and the end (Rev 21:6), Jesus is the beginning and the end (Rev 22:13); Only God can forgive sins (Lk 5:21), Jesus forgives sins (Lk 5:20); God is our hope (Ps 71:5), Jesus is our hope (1Tim 1:1); God is eternal (Deut 33:27), Jesus is eternal (Isa 9:6, Heb 1:10-11); God will come with all the holy ones (Zech 14:5), Jesus will come with all the holy ones (1Thess 3:13); Only God is our savior (Isa 43:11), Jesus is our savior (Tit 2:13, 2Pet 1:1); God is the creator of the universe (Isa 44:24, Jer 27:5), Jesus is the creator of the universe (Jn 1:3); To God, every knee will bow and every tongue confess (Isa 45:22-23), to Jesus, every knee will bow and every tongue confess (Phil 2:10-11); God is the same and his years will have no end (Ps 102:27), Jesus is the same and his years will have no end (Heb 1:12); God is immutable (Mal 3:6), Jesus is immutable (Heb 13:8); God is over all (Ps 97:9), Jesus is over all (Jn 3:31); the spirit of God dwells in us (Rom 8:9), the spirit of Jesus dwells in us (Gal 4:6); God is a stone of offense and a stumbling block (Isa 8:14), Jesus is a stone of offense and a stumbling block (1Pet 2:8); God was valued at 30 pieces of silver (Zech 11:12-13), Jesus was valued at 30 pieces of silver (Mt 26:14-16); God is our shepherd (Ps 23:1), Jesus is our shepherd (Jn 10:11, 1Pet 5:4, Heb 13:20); God is Mighty God (Isa 10:21), Jesus is Mighty God (Isa 9:6); God is Lord of Lords (Deut 10:17, Ps 136:3), Jesus is Lord of Lords (Rev 17:14); God is our only Rock (Isa 44:8, Ps 18:2, 94:22), Jesus is our rock (1 Cor 10:4); God is our owner (Isa 54:5), Jesus is our only owner (Jude 4); No one can snatch us out of God’s hand (Deut 32:39), no one can snatch us out of Jesus’ hand (Jn 10:28); God is the horn of salvation (2Sam 22:3), Jesus is the horn of salvation (Lk 1:68-9); God renders according to our works (Ps 62:12), Jesus renders according to our works (Mt 16:27, Rev 22:12); God loves and corrects (Prov 3:12), Jesus loves and corrects (Rev 3:19); God’s words will stand forever (Isa 40:8), Jesus’ words will stand forever (Mt 24:35); God is the eternal light (Isa 60:19), Jesus is the eternal light (Jn 8:12, Rev 21:23); God seeks to save the lost (Ezek 34:16), Jesus seeks to save the lost (Lk 19:10); Paul is a slave of God (Tit 1:1), Paul is a slave of Jesus (Rom 1:1) even though no man can slave for two masters (Mt 6:24); God raised Jesus from the dead (Gal 1:1), Jesus raised himself from the dead (Jn 2:19-21); God is our guide (Ps 48:14), Jesus is our guide (Lk 1:79); God is our deliverer (Ps 70:5, 2Sam 22:2), Jesus is our deliverer (Rom 11:26); God is called God (Isa 44:8), Jesus is called God (Isa 9:6, Jn 20:28); God is the King of Israel (Isa 44:6), Jesus is the King of Israel (Mt 27:42, Jn 1:49). Since the Bible does not contradict itself, how can all these things be true if Jesus is not God?
    I find this quite often with the JWs, who must completely re-write the Bible in their own translation to validate their beliefs. As I think we have seen, the evidence for Christ's deity is overwhelming.




    FerventGodSeeker
     
  8. iris89

    iris89 Active Member

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    Hi FerventGodSeeker

    FIRST, You seem to go from nowhere to nowhere in your reply and clearly show you know nothing about translation or you would well know that how a word may be translated from one language to another may often depend on context.

    SECOND, I have never claimed that Jesus (Yeshua), the Isa, Christ was just a regular man, but that he is the Son of the true God (YHWH) of Abraham as stated at Matthew 16:16, "
    And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." (American Standard Version; ASV) so why the long diatribe proving he was something special which was NEVER in question?
    Now with respect to his original position in heaven, let’s look at how he was his Father’s master worker there before being born on earth to a virgin girl:
    Master workman in Keeping With Jewish Law of Agencies:

    The Jewish Law of Agencies which is basically as follows, "Jesus (Yeshua) was God's (YHWH's) appointed agent in accordance with the 'Biblical law of agency' described as, "Scripture mentions something being done by Person A, whilst another mentions it being done by Person B. This is best understood when we grasp the Schaliach Principle, or the Jewish Law of Agency, which is expressed in the dictum, "A person's agent is regarded as the person himself." Therefore any act committed by a duly appointed agent is regarded as having been committed by the principle." (The Encyclopedia of the Jewish Religion, R.J.Z. Werblowski and Geoffrey Wigoder). Now that we know what the Jewish Law of Agencies is, let's see how it applies to Jesus (Yeshua).

    First it is necessary to understand that Jesus (Yeshua) is often referred to as the 'Word' as shown at John 1:114, "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father), full of grace and truth." (ASV); And at 1 John 1:1, "That which was from the beginning, that which we have heard, that which we have seen with our eyes, that which we beheld, and our hands handled, concerning the Word of life " (ASV); And at Revelation 19:13, "And he [is] arrayed in a garment sprinkled with blood: and his name is called The Word of God." (ASV). That which is said about the Word in the New Testament fits remarkably the description of 'wisdom' in the Old Testament given at Proverbs 8:22-31, "Jehovah possessed me in the beginning of his way, Before his works of old. 23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, Before the earth was. 24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth, When there were no fountains abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills was I brought forth; 26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, Nor the beginning of the dust of the world. 27 When he established the heavens, I was there: When he set a circle upon the face of the deep, 28 When he made firm the skies above, When the fountains of the deep became strong, 29 When he gave to the sea its bound, That the waters should not transgress his commandment, When he marked out the foundations of the earth; 30 Then I was by him, [as] a master workman; And I was daily [his] delight, Rejoicing always before him, 31 Rejoicing in his habitable earth; And my delight was with the sons of men." (ASV). There wisdon is personified, and represented as able to speak and act per Proverbs 8:1, "Doth not wisdom cry, And understanding put forth her voice?" (ASV). In fact it was understood by many Christian writers of the early centuries of the C.E. that this section referred symbolically to God's (YHWH) Son, Jesus (Yeshua) in his pre-human state. Thus, in view of the scriptures already considered, there is no denying that the Son, Jesus (Yeshua) was 'produced' by God (YHWH) 'as the "beginning of his way, Before his works of old" or the earliest of his achievements very long ago and was beside God (YHWH) as his agent or master worker during the creation of the earth as described in Proverbs just quoted. Hebrew, like modern day Spanish, assigns gender to its nouns, and the word for 'wisdom' is always in the feminine gender. Thus, this would remain the case even when is personified and therefore would not rule out wisdom's being used in a figurative way to represent God's firstborn Son, Jesus (Yeshua). It is to be remembered that the title "gohe'leth"or "Kohelet" or congregator in English that Solomon applied to himself at Ecclesiastes 1:1, "The words of Kohelet, the son of David, king in Yerushalayim" (Hebrew Names Version of World English Bible ), and this word also is in the feminine gender.

    God's (YHWH's) own wisdom was shown in creation at Proverbs 3:19-20, "Jehovah by wisdom founded the earth; By understanding he established the heavens. 20 By his knowledge the depths were broken up, And the skies drop down the dew." (ASV), but only through his Son, Jesus (Yeshua); this is also shown at 1 Corinthians 8:6, "yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through him." (ASV). Likewise God's (YHWH's) purpose toward mankind is made manifest through his Son; therefore the Apostle John could say that Jesus (Yeshua) represents per 1 Corinthians 1:24 & 30, "but unto them that are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God." (ASV); And at "30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who was made unto us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption:" (ASV); And at 1 Corinthians 2:7-8, "but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, [even] the [wisdom] that hath been hidden, which God foreordained before the worlds unto our glory: 8 which none of the rulers of this world hath known: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory:" (ASV); And at Proverbs 18-21, "Riches and honor are with me; [Yea], durable wealth and righteousness. 19 My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; And my revenue than choice silver. 20 I walk in the way of righteousness, In the midst of the paths of justice; 21 That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance, And that I may fill their treasuries. " (ASV). Thus as we can see that Jesus (Yeshua) Christ has become to us wisdom from God, and also righteousness and sanctification and a release by ransom.
    [source - DOCUMENTARY ON OUR SAVIOR JESUS (YESHUA): by iris the Preacher 2005 – view entire document at
    http://love.proboards9.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=religious&thread=1135862671&page=1 ][/quote]
    THREE, The Bible was finished by the end of the First Century, and early canons have recently been found testifying to this fact.
    FOUR, With respect to the Council of Nicea and the source of the Trinity there is insufficient space here to go into that and show you your error with proof of that error, but go to the third post down at this link and learn the facts and stop posting silly nonsense:

    http://love.proboards9.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=religious&thread=1135723580&page=1

    For more information, read the other post of mine on that thread.

    Your Friend in Christ Iris89
     
  9. FerventGodSeeker

    FerventGodSeeker Believer

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  10. Feathers in Hair

    Feathers in Hair World's Tallest Hobbit

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    MOD POST

    Personal insults are not appropriate in the debate section, and they're even more inappropriate in the Discuss Individual Religions section. If you see a comment that you believe is insulting, please use the 'report' feature.

    /End Mod Post
     
  11. iris89

    iris89 Active Member

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    Hi FerventGodSeeker

    FIRST, I always state specifically from what translation I am quoting. Recently I have been quoting almost exclusively from the American Standard Version (ASV) so what is all this nonsense about the NWT which I haven’t quoted from. Are you trying to divert attention away from the facts I have presented.

    SECOND, As I previously said,
    Now go there instead of posting "Red Herring" nonsense.

    THIRD, You posted nothing nor answered any question I raised in my last post but went off on a new tangient, so get real.
    I specifically asked you,


    FOURTH, Now with respect Hebrews 1:8 that you mentioned, let’s look at the facts, go to my Discourse on Hebrews 1:8 at:
    http://love.proboards9.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=religious&thread=1146522481

    FIFTH, I HAVE NEVER DENIED CHRIST’S DEITY so stop implying false things.
    Discourse on the Whether Christ is Divine, a Deity:
    Many claim are made with respect the Divinity of Jesus Christ, but when we use a little reasoning on the subject it is seen as much ado about nothing.
    Sure he is divine as clearly shown by common sense as follows:
    The son of a dog is a dog; whereas, a son of Almighty God (YHWH) is of course a god or godlike thus divine. This is clearly shown by the meaning of the word as follows:
    (from Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary)
    divine (GOD-LIKE) adjective
    connected with a god, or like a god:
    The Ayatollah described the earthquake in Iran as a divine test.
    Some fans seem to regard footballers as divine beings.
    England have fallen so far behind in the championship that their only hope of victory is divine intervention (= help from God).
    Just because you've been promoted that doesn't give you a divine right (= one like that of a god) to tell us all what to do.
    Oxford Dictionary
    divine = /d"van/ adjective (-r, -st) 1 of, from, or like God or a god; sacred. 2 colloquial excellent. verb (-ning) 1 discover by intuition or guessing. 2 foresee. 3 practise divination. noun theologian. divining-rod dowser's forked twig. divinely adverb.
    Wordsmyth Dictionary
    1. a religious scholar or clergyman. Similar Words exegete , minister , cleric , clergyman , bishop , theologian , prelate , priest , religious
    2. Definition 2. (cap.) God (usu. prec. by the). Synonyms Godhead {godhead (2)} , Divinity {divinity (2)} , Omnipotent {omnipotent} , Omniscient {omniscient} , God {god (2)} , Deity {deity (4)} Similar Words celestial
    3. Definition 3. (sometimes cap.) the spiritual or godlike, as opposed to the earthly or worldly. Similar Words divinity
    The American Heritage(r) Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. Divine
    SYLLABICATION: di·vine PRONUNCIATION: /61/wavs/43/D0304300.wav/61/wavs/43/D0304300.wavd-vn ADJECTIVE: Inflected forms: di·vin·er, di·vin·est
    1a. Having the nature of or being a deity. b. Of, relating to, emanating from, or being the expression of a deity: sought divine guidance through meditation. c. Being in the service or worship of a deity; sacred. 2. Superhuman; godlike. 3a. Supremely good or beautiful; magnificent: a divine performance of the concerto. b. Extremely pleasant; delightful: had a divine time at the ball. 4. Heavenly; perfect. NOUN: 1. A cleric. 2. A theologian. VERB: Inflected forms: di·vined, di·vin·ing, di·vines
    TRANSITIVE VERB: 1. To foretell through or as if through the art of divination. See synonyms at foretell. 2a. To know by inspiration, intuition, or reflection. b. To guess. 3. To locate (underground water or minerals) with a divining rod; douse. INTRANSITIVE VERB: 1. To practice divination. 2. To guess. ETYMOLOGY: Middle English, from Old French devine, from Latin dvnus, divine, foreseeing, from dvus, god. See dyeu- in Appendix I. V., Middle English divinen, from Old French deviner, from Latin dvnre, from dvnus.

    A very intense subject easily put to rest by a little common sense and reasoning.

    Your Friend Iris89
     
  12. FerventGodSeeker

    FerventGodSeeker Believer

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    • Like Like x 1
  13. iris89

    iris89 Active Member

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    Hi Everyone

    Many Play Logomachy With "Pro-sky-ne’o’ In Translation

    INTRODUCTION:

    Many play games with translation as the Koine Greek word, ‘pro-sky-ne’o’ can be translated various ways into English. The correct way of course is to let content govern how it is translated, but many translators translate it per their personal belief bias. Let’s consider the facts by first looking at Matthew 14:33 from the Revised Standard Version (RSV), "And those in the boat worshiped him, saying, "Truly you are the Son of God."But Matthew 4:10 clearly says, "Then Jesus said to him, "Begone, Satan! for it is written, 'You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.'" (RSV). Here we have an apparent contradiction as Matthew 16:16, "Simon Peter replied, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." (RSV) clearly identifies Jesus (Yeshua) as the Son of the true God (YHWH) of Abraham and NOT as his Father, the true God (YHWH) of Abraham.Why this apparent contradiction, simple, because Trinitarian biased translators want to make it appear that the Father, true God (YHWH) of Abraham, and the Son, Jesus (Yeshua), are one and the same which they are NOT.

    PRO-SKY-NE'O TECHNICAL MEANING:

    The Koine Greek word, pro-sky-ne’o, can be rendered "worship" or "obeisance to" depending on context. This is clearly shown in "A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature" which says, "used to designate the custom of prostrating oneself before a person and kissing his feet, the hem of his garment, the ground." [Source - A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature by Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, Danker; Second English Edition, Page 716, pub. 1979 in Chicago].

    Now, this is the term used at Matthew 14:33, previously quoted, to show what the disciples did toward Jesus (Yeshua). At Hebrews 1:6, "And again, when he brings the first-born into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him." (RSV); whereas, it is readily apparent that this scripture refers to rendering deference to Jesus (Yeshua) and NOT worship of the type that should only go to his Father, the true God (YHWH) of Abraham. So we can see how some translators rendered this in accordance to their bias and not to give a clear and accurate rendering.
    However the Greek Septuagint at Genesis 22:5, In Koine Greek, "LXX, kai. Ei=pen Abraam toi/j paisi.n auvtou/ kaqi,sate auvtou/ meta. th/j o;nou evgw. de. kai. To. Paida,rion dieleuso,meqa e[wj w-de kai. Proskunh,santej avnastre,ywmen pro.j u`ma/j " (Greek Septuagint, LXX), and translated into English, "And Abraham said to his servants: "remain here with the donkey; the boy and I, will go over till there and after having prostrated ourselves we will return to you". Which shows the most common ancient usage of the word, but modern translations most often fail to capture the original meaning the writer gave to it as clearly shown due to their bias. The Revised Standard Version (RSV) renders it, "Then Abraham said to his young men, "Stay here with the ***; I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you." (RSV).This is the same meaning, in context, ascribed to it at Genesis 23:7, and an Orthodox Church item says, "BOWING AND KISSING
    a. In the Eastern cultures bowing is sign of humility before someone, or paying respect to someone. This is known to all from movies about Japanese customs. What about Scripture? Does the Bible have anything to say about bowing to people or objects and kissing things?
    b. WWJD: What would Jesus do? If one reads the Babylonian Talmud (contemporary to Christ) it describes the feast of tabernacles and says the Jews prostrated to the ground and kissed the court floor of the Temple. Pious Jews still kiss the mezuzah (scroll containing shema and Shaddai on doorposts), fringe of prayer shawl, and phylacteries, the weeping wall, and the LAW during worship, (now we kiss the Gospel). We all know that Christianity grew out of Judaism. What was/is the Jewish practice regarding kissing "holy objects"? Jesus, as a Jew, practiced these same things, especially in the context of the Temple and Synagogue worship. We see parallels within the Orthodox practices toward sacred things. [source – Our Life In Christ,
    http://www.ourlifeinchrist.com/Program%20Notes/icons5_110704.htm on 05/01/2006]

    Also at 1 Kings 1:23 in the Greek Septuagint it discribes what the prophet Nathan did on approaching King David, "And they told the king, "Here is Nathan the prophet." And when he came in before the king, he bowed before the king, with his face to the ground." (RSV) where even the biased translator rendered, ‘pro-sky-ne’o,’ correct to context, since no doctrinal bias was here involved.

    CONCLUSION:

    As Matthew 4:10, previously quoted, clearly shows in this context, we must understand that it is ‘pro-sky-ne’o’ with a particular attitude of heart and mind that should be exclusively directed only toward the true God (YHWH) of Abraham as clearly stated by his Son, Jesus (Yeshua). Therefore, be not deceived by biased translations and/or plays on logomachy made by some who are followers of false doctrines. Interestingly, other translations render Matthew 14:33 more correctly such as New English Bible (NEB); "They then climbed into the boat; and the wind dropped. And the men in the boat fell at his feet, exclaiming, "Truly you are the Son of God." ; and the New American Bible, ""Those who were in the boat did him homage, saying, "Truly, you are the Son of God." (NAB); The Jerusalem Bible, (JB),"The men in the boat bowed down before him and said, "Truly, you are the Son of God."" (JB). As can be seen this contrast greatly with the biased rendering in the Revised Standard Version (RSV), "And those in the boat worshiped him, saying, "Truly you are the Son of God." (RSV) so now all can see the bias translation of this scripture as found in most Bibles is just a bad translation.
    For more detailed information on the subject of worship, go to:

    http://preacher.proboards7.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1146449668

    And, for more detailed information on how so many denominations went WRONG, go to:

    http://love.proboards9.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=religious&thread=1135723580&page=1

    And, that Jesus (Yeshua) is NOT his Father, the true God (YHWH) of Abraham as some wrongly claim,

    http://www.network54.com/Forum/388928/thread/1113352271/last-1113352271/Jesus+Is+NOT+His+Father+%96+The+Proof

    Your Friend in Christ Iris89
     
  14. iris89

    iris89 Active Member

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    Hi FerventGodSeeker

    FIRST, I do not like being called rude which I am not; I am blunt and to the point and do NOT beat around the bush so get real. I do not like being falsely accused. To say the truth is never being rude, but in keeping with John 8:32, "and you will know the truth and the truth will set you free." (The Williams Translation; TWT).

    SECOND, Jesus (Yeshua) is NOT CO-EQUAL with his Father, the true God (YHWH) of Abraham, for more details, go to:

    http://www.network54.com/Forum/388928/thread/1115082504/last-1115082504/Jesus+%28Yeshua%29+Not+Co-Equal+or+Co-Eternal+With+His+Father+%28YHWH%29-

    THIRD, Jesus (Yeshua) is NOT his own Father, the true God (YHWH) of Abraham, for more details, go to:

    http://www.network54.com/Forum/388928/thread/1113352271/last-1113352271/Jesus+Is+NOT+His+Father+%96+The+Proof

    FOURTH, You have failed to answer my question:

    John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; (Authorized King James Bible; AV)

    John 6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. (AV)

    By the words of Jesus, Jesus was not eternal; he was given to have life in himself and lives because of the Father. A eternal being cannot be given to have life in themselves, and they do not depend on others to live.

    Your Friend in Christ Iris89
     
  15. FerventGodSeeker

    FerventGodSeeker Believer

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    Despite how you may view it, you do come off as extremely rude. Calling someone's religious beliefs "silly nonsense" is nothing short of total insult. Also, the truth can be rude when said in the wrong context or tone. If your mother looks butt ugly one morning after she has just gotten out of bed, and you say, "Wow, Mom, you are butt ugly today," that may be true, but it's rude and disrespectful. You may disagree with me fully on my views, but you may also do so politely and with valid reason...dismissing someone's statements about their beliefs as "silly nonsense" is not appropriate. If you continue to be flagrantly disrespectful of me, I will discontinue this conversation and ask a Moderator to shut down the thread. Now can we please play nice?;)


    "Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne set in heaven, and One sat on the throne...the twenty-four elders fall down before Him who in on the throne and worship Him who lives forever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, 'You are worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and by Your will they exist and were created." Revelation 4:2, 10-11

    "And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain..." Revelation 5:6

    What was that about Jesus not being on the throne?




    I have already responded to this multiple times on this very thread. "Right hand of God" is a figurative expression of power and authority, it does not mean Jesus was standing on God's physical right-hand side. In Christ's humanity, as Mediator for us, He is willingly submissive to the Father. Yet in His divine nature, He is equal to the Father.

    Indeed, Jesus did teach the words of the Father...that was (at least in part) His job on earth. That doesn't invalidate His deity; it supports it by proving that He and the Father had a close, intimately knowledgable relationship. Jesus said, "All things that the Father has are Mine." John 16:15

    Looking at this verse alone among those listed disproves such a thesis. The verse says, "...when He (the Son of Man, i.e. Jesus) comes in His glory and the glory of the Father..." There is a clear distinction between Christ's glory and the Father's glory. True, Christ will come in the Father's glory, but He will also come in His own glory, which is equally as amazing. While Christ was on earth, He said, "And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with you before the world was." John 17:5 In Christ's humbled human state, He was hardly glorious at all. Yet, when He rose from the grave, Christ regained His glory which He shared with the Father eternally before the world even existed.

    Recall that, while on Earth Christ was delivered all things by His Father, this was because they originally belonged to Him anyways, as I already showed; "All things that the Father has are Mine." John 16:15

    Oh, dear, must we go through this again? I've responded to these verses time after time. The Father was greater than Christ IN CHRIST'S HUMANITY, which Christ willingly submitted Himself to. In Christ's divinity, they are equal.

    I already showed you that Christ in that verse was "established from everlasting", and therefore could not be a created being.

    I've already explained both of these verses and have received no counter-reply from you. In fact, you've been extremely selective in general with what you respond to out of my numerous arguments. Hopefully I'll receive some more detailed replies soon.


    Nor have I ever said He was. As I have repeatedly stated, Jesus and the Father are different Persons.


    Did I NOT just post for you the response that I gave to that EXACT question on April 17th in my last post to you? Scroll back up to my last post to read it once again, or go to page 10 where it can be found in context of the discussion when I originally said it.

    FerventGodSeeker
     
  16. iris89

    iris89 Active Member

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    Hi FerventGodSeeker

    FIRST, Stop and answer my question. Side stepping it with false accusations is nothing but a dodge. You speak about being rude, but have you ever thought how rude a dodge is? I find it very disrespectful of another who happens in this case to be a well recognized researcher and digger out of facts, and presenter of facts, namely myself.
    Now here is the question once more:

    John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; (Authorized King James Bible; AV)

    John 6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. (AV)
    By the words of Jesus, Jesus was not eternal; he was given to have life in himself and lives because of the Father. A eternal being cannot be given to have life in themselves, and they do not depend on others to live.

    SECOND, Your comment is misleading and off base with respect subject matter,
    First, you obviously have forgotten James 5:20, "let him know, that he who converteth a sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall cover a multitude of sins." (American Standard Version; ASV). That scripture clearly shows that when one exposes false doctrine, he/she is doing a loving thing per what Jesus (Yeshua) said at Matthew 22:37-40, "And he said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And a second like unto it is this, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. 40 On these two commandments the whole law hangeth, and the prophets." (ASV). Whereas, it is quite a different thing to make rude comments about a person’s appearance or manner of speech; you are trying to mingle to unlike things together. Then, you attack me in a most un-Christian way with threats. What you find rude, I do not, but I do find very rude unwarranted threats since I had no way of knowing you were overly sensitive and took something as rude that was not intended that way, and then continue with it.

    THIRD, With respect your items from Revelation, you are mingling two unlike things together since Jesus (Yeshua) does NOT sit on the throne of his Father, the true God (YHWH) of Abraham, but on the right hand side of it on his own throne. Let’s look at the facts directly from the Bible, American Standard Version; ASV:
    Mark 16:19 So then the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken unto them, was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.

    Acts 2:33 Being therefore by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath poured forth this, which ye see and hear.

    Acts 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

    Acts 7:56 and said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God.

    Romans 8:34 who is he that condemneth? It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, that was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

    Colossians 3:1 If then ye were raised together with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated on the right hand of God.

    Hebrews 10:12 but he, when he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
    1Peter 3:22 who is on the right hand of God, having gone into heaven; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him (ASV)

    I hope this assist you with respect seeing your error.

    Your Friend in Christ Iris89




     
  17. Harvster

    Harvster Member

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    Hi Iris,

    Not to be rude but i think as a "recognised researcher" you do get your facts wrong. First of all the Trinity was not created at the council it was an acepted teaching that the Church Fathers taught. All of those that you listed in your linked website clearly teach the concept of the Trinity and there is even a thread on these forums stating some of their quotes relating to the Trinity.

    Also to answer one of your questions all i will say now as I'm short of time is dont forget Jesus was human ;)
     
  18. FerventGodSeeker

    FerventGodSeeker Believer

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  19. iris89

    iris89 Active Member

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    Hi FerventGodSeeker

    FIRST, Your comment,
    WRONG, This two seem to be the same in many English translations, but the words and their meaning in the original languages are very different, see my detailed article on same at, and several by other experts:

    http://www.network54.com/Forum/388928/thread/1115834431/last-1128865167/DISCOURSE+ON+THE+MISCONCEPTION+WITH+RESPECT+%27I+AM%27

    SECOND, I only care about ‘theology’ taught and backed up in the Bible and not theology of men per 2 Corinthians 4:4, "
    in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not dawn upon them." (American Standard Version; ASV).
    THIRD, With respect Revelation 22:12-13 go to my article at:
    http://preacher.proboards7.com/index.cgi?board=belief&action=display&thread=1146714326
    FOURTH, With respect Revelation 1:17-18, go to my article on this scripture ay:
    http://preacher.proboards7.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=belief&thread=1146714640
    FIFTH, With respect Isaiah 9:6-7, go to my article on this scripture at:
    http://www.network54.com/Forum/388928/thread/1123818638/last-1123818638/The+Facts+on+Isaiah+9-6+and+9-7
    SIXTH, With respect John 1:1, go to my article on the translational constructs on this scripture at:
    http://preacher.proboards7.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=views&thread=1146715189
    SEVENTH, With respect Colossians 1:17,
    Commentary on Six Scriptures the Un-Steadfast Struggle With Because They Do Not Know The Jewish Law of Agencies or Schaliach Principle:
    We will now deal with a group of twelve scriptures that often misguided individuals use to claim that Jesus (Yeshua) and his Father, Almighty God (YHWH) are one-and-the-same individual and/or different manifestation of one being, because they see scriptures that say Almighty God (YHWH) did this or that and others saying the Son of God did this or that; but fail to realize that the Son of god (YHWH), Jesus (Yeshua) was carrying out orders and this is the same as saying the builder or contractor built this or that when actually the workers did under his orders. So all these scriptures really show is that Jesus (Yeshua) was the master craftsman or worker carrying out his Father's (YHWH's) directions, and nothing more. This will be made very clear later by more detail with respect the Jewish Law of Agencies or Schaliach Principle. These six scriptures are as follows:
    First, the First Commandment:
    Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
    Now the other five:
    Colossians 1:17 and he is before all things, and in him all things consist.
    John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
    John 6:32-33 Jesus therefore said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, It was not Moses that gave you the bread out of heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread out of heaven.
    John 8:16 Yea and if I judge, my judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.
    John 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I came forth and am come from God; for neither have I come of myself, but he sent me.
    As can be seen from the above that Jesus (Yeshua) was carrying out the assignments of his Father (YHWH) as he himself said, "I came forth and am come from God; for neither have I come of myself, but he sent me." Hence, we see his Father (YHWH) is the superior one; therefore, Jesus (Yeshua) can NOT be a god before his Father, Almighty God (YHWH), and thus violating the First Commandment. Jesus (Yeshua) also clearly showed in the above scriptures that that all things come from his Father (YHWH) at John 6:32-33; And that he, Jesus (Yeshua) had been sent by his Father (YHWh) at John 6:29, John 8:16, and John 8:42; That is Father (YHWH) has put him before all other things at Colossians 1:17. Now exactly what is the Jewish Law of Agencies mentioned at the start of this Bible commentary?
    Let's have a look! The Jewish Law of Agencies which is basically as follows, "Jesus (Yeshua) was God's (YHWH's) appointed agent in accordance with the 'Biblical law of agency' described as, "Scripture mentions something being done by Person A, whilst another mentions it being done by Person B. This is best understood when we grasp the Schaliach Principle, or the Jewish Law of Agency, which is expressed in the dictum, "A person's agent is regarded as the person himself." Therefore any act committed by a duly appointed agent is regarded as having been committed by the principle." (The Encyclopedia of the Jewish Religion, R.J.Z. Werblowski and Geoffrey Wigoder).
    And, in my opinion, you have NOT answered my question, and continually make the same old claim of rudeness which I stopped the minute I found you thought it was rude which of course I believe it was not so why the continuance?????????????? Also, why were you rude to me?

    Your Friend in Christ Iris89
     
  20. iris89

    iris89 Active Member

    Joined:
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    Hi FerventGodSeeker

    FIRST, Your comment,
    WRONG, This two seem to be the same in many English translations, but the words and their meaning in the original languages are very different, see my detailed article on same at, and several by other experts:
    http://www.network54.com/Forum/388928/thread/1115834431/last-1128865167/DISCOURSE+ON+THE+MISCONCEPTION+WITH+RESPECT+%27I+AM%27
    SECOND, I only care about ‘theology’ taught and backed up in the Bible and not theology of men per 2 Corinthians 4:4, "
    in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not dawn upon them." (American Standard Version; ASV).
    THIRD, With respect Revelation 22:12-13 go to my article at:
    http://preacher.proboards7.com/index.cgi?board=belief&action=display&thread=1146714326
    FOURTH, With respect Revelation 1:17-18, go to my article on this scripture ay:
    http://preacher.proboards7.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=belief&thread=1146714640
    FIFTH, With respect Isaiah 9:6-7, go to my article on this scripture at:
    http://www.network54.com/Forum/388928/thread/1123818638/last-1123818638/The+Facts+on+Isaiah+9-6+and+9-7
    SIXTH, With respect John 1:1, go to my article on the translational constructs on this scripture at:
    http://preacher.proboards7.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=views&thread=1146715189
    SEVENTH, With respect Colossians 1:17,
    Commentary on Six Scriptures the Un-Steadfast Struggle With Because They Do Not Know The Jewish Law of Agencies or Schaliach Principle:
    We will now deal with a group of twelve scriptures that often misguided individuals use to claim that Jesus (Yeshua) and his Father, Almighty God (YHWH) are one-and-the-same individual and/or different manifestation of one being, because they see scriptures that say Almighty God (YHWH) did this or that and others saying the Son of God did this or that; but fail to realize that the Son of god (YHWH), Jesus (Yeshua) was carrying out orders and this is the same as saying the builder or contractor built this or that when actually the workers did under his orders. So all these scriptures really show is that Jesus (Yeshua) was the master craftsman or worker carrying out his Father's (YHWH's) directions, and nothing more. This will be made very clear later by more detail with respect the Jewish Law of Agencies or Schaliach Principle. These six scriptures are as follows:
    First, the First Commandment:
    Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
    Now the other five:
    Colossians 1:17 and he is before all things, and in him all things consist.
    John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
    John 6:32-33 Jesus therefore said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, It was not Moses that gave you the bread out of heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread out of heaven.
    John 8:16 Yea and if I judge, my judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.
    John 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I came forth and am come from God; for neither have I come of myself, but he sent me.
    As can be seen from the above that Jesus (Yeshua) was carrying out the assignments of his Father (YHWH) as he himself said, "I came forth and am come from God; for neither have I come of myself, but he sent me." Hence, we see his Father (YHWH) is the superior one; therefore, Jesus (Yeshua) can NOT be a god before his Father, Almighty God (YHWH), and thus violating the First Commandment. Jesus (Yeshua) also clearly showed in the above scriptures that that all things come from his Father (YHWH) at John 6:32-33; And that he, Jesus (Yeshua) had been sent by his Father (YHWh) at John 6:29, John 8:16, and John 8:42; That is Father (YHWH) has put him before all other things at Colossians 1:17. Now exactly what is the Jewish Law of Agencies mentioned at the start of this Bible commentary?
    Let's have a look! The Jewish Law of Agencies which is basically as follows, "Jesus (Yeshua) was God's (YHWH's) appointed agent in accordance with the 'Biblical law of agency' described as, "Scripture mentions something being done by Person A, whilst another mentions it being done by Person B. This is best understood when we grasp the Schaliach Principle, or the Jewish Law of Agency, which is expressed in the dictum, "A person's agent is regarded as the person himself." Therefore any act committed by a duly appointed agent is regarded as having been committed by the principle." (The Encyclopedia of the Jewish Religion, R.J.Z. Werblowski and Geoffrey Wigoder).
    And, in my opinion, you have NOT answered my question, and continually make the same old claim of rudeness which I stopped the minute I found you thought it was rude which of course I believe it was not so why the continuance?????????????? Also, why were you rude to me?
    Your Friend in Christ Iris89
     
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