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Discourse On The Trinity Mystery With Three Questions:

Discussion in 'Christianity DIR' started by iris89, Dec 27, 2004.

  1. FerventGodSeeker

    FerventGodSeeker Believer

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  2. Polaris

    Polaris Active Member

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    What really doesn't make sense to me concerning your belief that God is immaterial is the resurrection. I could accept that an immaterial God would for whatever reason create physical children, but what purpose does the resurrection (the reuniting of our spirirt with our physical body) serve? How can we possibly be heirs to God when we are not even of the same substance? And what of Christ, does he or does he not now have a physical resurrected body? What is the point of the resurrection?

    Let me propose an explanation that in my opinion makes much more sense. God is a physical being. He has a glorified and perfected body that in no way limits His omniscience. He indeed created us in His image, not exactly like him -- He is glorified, perfect, and immortal, but in his physical image and likeness. We are here to learn and grow and become more like our Father through learning of Him, keeping His commandments, and partaking of the blessings of the atonement of Jesus Christ that we might repent of and overcome our sins. After death and at the appointed time we will be resurrected and recieve an incorruptable and immortal body more like that of our Father, and like Christ's as recorded in the N.T. All of this with the intent that we might actually become like our Father and enjoy all that he has, dependent on our worthiness. We will never equal Him in authority and glory, but we have the potential to become very much like him as we are His offspring.

    This still seems to be a pretty hand-wavy description of the nature of the Godhead, but I think I understand what you are getting at.

    For all intents and purposes God is the only God. Though I believe that other gods exist -- they are only Lords over their creations and have no stewardship over us. So in essence they are not Gods to us. God insists that He is one because He is the only one who can provide salvation to us. No other being or thing can bring about our salvation.

    Just so you know we are drifting away from official LDS beliefs. Very little has been revealed concerning the potential existance of other gods because it simply is not pertinent for our existance and our salvation.

    I agree.

    It wouldn't undermine His whole point. His statement could be interpreted that though other true gods exist, for us there is but one God who has charge over us and we are subject only to Him. The point is still firmly in tact.

    Again very few details have been revealed concerning this topic because it doesn't directly effect our salvation or our progression in this life. I honestly don't know how God-like we can become, but the fact that we are potential heirs to God and that we are the offspring of God doesn't really put a cap on our potential. I do believe, however, that we can never become equals with God because His creations and glory are ever increasing and He will forever be our God.

    Yes, he is absolutely the only one who can bring about our salvation so He is absolutely our only God.

     
  3. FerventGodSeeker

    FerventGodSeeker Believer

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  4. Polaris

    Polaris Active Member

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    That doesn't explain why God created us as physical beings. Could we not follow him as spiritual beings? Why didnt' God just create us as spirit-only beings so we could really be like Him. How can we really be like Him if He is spirit-only and we are physical?

    We don't know what, if anything, can limit God. I could just as easily pose this question -- if he is immaterial how is anyone ever able to feel, see, or hear him? He is obviously able to defy the laws of physics as we know them.

    Where does it say that He doesn't have a body? He said he made man in His image in the context of a physical creation. There are numerous passages that refer to physical attributes (finger, mouth, face, etc).

    Both statements are correct.

    That much has not been revealed. Though I for one am open to that possibility as I believe that it makes sense.

    Let me explain for you why I believe that other gods exist and why I believe that we may become gods. First, the scriptures that I have already referred to that state that we are heirs of God and the offspring of God strongly imply that we can become like our Father -- even gods. Second, the doctrine that we can become gods has been revealed to LDS prophets in these latter-days, and though not part of canonized scripture some have even taught that God was once a mortal man who lived, died, was resurrected and glorified and became God in a process similar to that which we may follow. Reason suggests that others may have been given this opportunity as well. Lastly I believe it because it simply makes sense. If God is really our Father and if He really does love us He would want us to have all that He has, or at least make it available to us - just as any loving father would. I believe that He wants us to have all the happiness and fulfillment that He enjoys and so has provided a way that we may overcome sin and death and eventually learn and gain all that He has for us.

    Do you have kids? I have two little boys and I can't envision a loving parent who doesn't want everything for their kids -- even more that what they have themselves. I could not be completely happy if my children were confined to some state of existance less than my own. You can deny that we can ever become gods and that there is a way prepared that engenders the creation of gods, but I'll remain open to the possibility (as its supported by scripture and by living prophets) until I hear authoratively otherwise.
     
  5. Quiddity

    Quiddity UndertheInfluenceofGiants

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    Cause we don't believe He is spirit-only. :)
     
  6. Squirt

    Squirt Well-Known Member

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    Would you mind elaborating just a bit on the word "substance" (or "essence"). I think this is the single greatest issue we Latter-day Saints have with the God of the creeds. If you could, please explain how you are using this word and what you believe it means with respect to the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. To me the words substance and essence are essentially synonymous, and imply physical makeup, whereas "nature" seems to be pertaining to non-physical qualities or attributes.

    (By the way, did you forget your one-on-one debate with me? :) )
     
  7. iris89

    iris89 Active Member

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    Hi FerventGodSeeker

    FIRST, I do NOT like being falsely accused by one who is in error. Your comment is totally unacceptable,
    I gave you the link to my research article on Early Christians, now go to it and knock off the false accusations:

    http://love.proboards9.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=religious&thread=1145288217&page=1

    SECOND, Early one in the early Christian church many diverted from the truth and had their own opinions, but those opinions did NOT reconcile with the Bible. Some of this divergence was even politically induced as brought out in a Bible dictionary:
    It is inevitable some went with the pagan flow of things, so what?

    THIRD, Humans do NOT have immortality so get real.

    FOURTH, Your misleading statement,

    First, the new testament word used at John 8:58 is a simple statement of fact with respect Jesus’ (Yeshua’s) prior existance in heaven.
    Second, the words used in the Old Testment at Exodus 3:14 were entirely different.
    Third, go to the following and read my research article on the subject:

    http://pub16.ezboard.com/fwwwchristiansareuscombiblestudy.showMessage?topicID=653.topic

    FIFTH, With respect John 17:5:
    Commentary on Twelve Scriptures the Un-Steadfast Struggle With:
    We will now deal with a group of twelve scriptures that often misguided individuals use to claim that Jesus (Yeshua) and his Father, Almighty God (YHWH) are one-and-the-same individual and/or different manifestation of one being, but all they really show is that Jesus (Yeshua) was created by his Father (YHWH) long before the earth was created; And that he dwelt there with his Father (YHWH) for untold eons before the start of creation on the earth. Now here are the scriptures the misguided ones so often use quite wrongly:
    THE first six clearly show he had a pre-human existence in heaven with his Father (YHWH):
    John 6:62 What then if ye should be hold the Son of man ascending where he was before?
    John 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
    John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
    John 3:13 And no one hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended out of heaven even the Son of man, who is in heaven.
    John 3:31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is of the earth, and of the earth he speaketh: he that cometh from heaven is above all.
    Ephesians 4:10 He that ascended, what is it but that he also descended into the lower parts of the earth?
    THE second set of six clearly show Jesus (Yeshua) was an obedient Son to his Father, Almighty God (YHWH) who loved him dearly, and was sent by his Father on an assignment to earth. This clearly shows his Father (YHWH) is the superior one and they are not co-equal:
    1 Peter 1:20 who was foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, but was manifested at the end of the times for your sake.
    John 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for he giveth not the Spirit by measure.
    John 7:16 Jesus therefore answered them, and said, My teaching is not mine, but his that sent me.
    John 7:28-29 Howbeit we know this man whence he is: but when the Christ cometh, no one knoweth whence he is. 28 Jesus therefore cried in the temple, teaching and saying, Ye both know me, and know whence I am; and I am not come of myself, but he that sent me is true, whom ye know not.
    John 8:29 And he that sent me is with me; he hath not left me alone; for I do always the things that are pleasing to him.
    John 17:24-25 Father, I desire that they also whom thou hast given me be with me where I am, that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father, the world knew thee not, but I knew thee; and these knew that thou didst send me. [All the above scriptures are from the American Standard Version]
    Clearly the second set of six scriptures show just the exact opposite from what the misguided ones try to show with them. They show, FIRST, that the Father (YHWY) and the Son, Jesus (Yeshua) are two distinct individuals; SECOND, the Son, Jesus (Yeshua) is subordinate and obedient to his Father (YHWH) who loves him, and that Jesus (Yeshua) is given orders or directions by his Father (YHWH); hence NO Co-equality between them. Now the question left to be asked is, y whom have these misguided ones been mislead?
    These misguided ones have been mislead by none other than the god of this system or world per 2 Corinthians 4:4, "In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them." (Authorized King James Bible; AV); due to their not seeking sound doctrine per Titus 2:1, "But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:" (AV)) use to falsely claim, to warp the scriptures to fit their false doctrines and myths, Almighty God (YHWH) and His Son, the Son of God, Jesus (Yeshua) are one and the same individual and/or manifestations of same. When in fact they are two distinct individuals as plainly shown by Jesus (Yeshua) with what he said at John 14:28, "Ye heard how I said to you, I go away, and I come unto you. If ye loved me, ye would have rejoiced, because I go unto the Father; for the Father is greater than I." (ASV); to wit, clearly showing Jesus (Yeshua) as the subordinate and His Father (YHWH) as the superior one who was greater than himself. Also, we all know a father and a son are two different individuals.
    .
    Now I think that is all space will allow.

    Your Friend in Christ Iris89
     
  8. iris89

    iris89 Active Member

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    Hi Polaris
    You are correct, they are two distinct spirit beings, and that is why the term father and son. Remember, God (YHWH) used over 40 faithful men as scribes to put his thoughts into the words of men, and ever since some have been trying to twist these words and say they have some special or different meaning which is simply not true.
    Take for example
    Revelation 22:13 and other scriptures that another poster mentioned. I wrote a commentary clearly showing their distinct nature as follows:
    Commentary on Two Sets of Parallel Scriptures that differentiate between the Father (YHWH) and his Son, the Son of God (YHWH), Jesus (Yeshua) Christ:
    ONES DEALING WITH THE FATHER (YHWH):
    Deuteronomy 33:27 The eternal God is thy dwelling-place, And underneath are the everlasting arms: And he thrust out the enemy from before thee, And said, Destroy.
    Psalm 90:2 Before the mountains were brought forth, Or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, Even from everlasting to everlasting, Thou art God.
    ONES DEALING WITH THE SON, THE SON OF GOD, JESUS (YESHUA):
    Revelation 1:17-18 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as one dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying, Fear not; I am the first and the last, 18 and the Living one; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive for evermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.
    Revelation 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. (American Standard Version; ASV)
    We shall examine both sets and see the difference and the parallels with respect scriptures dealing strictly with the Father (YHWH), and those dealing strictly with the Son, the Son of God (YHWH), Jesus (Yeshua). Deuteronomy 33:27 is interesting in that it uses the phrase, "underneath are the everlasting arms," showing God (YHWH) always existed; with this highlighted at Psalms 46:11, "Jehovah of hosts is with us; The God of Jacob is our refuge." (ASV); which is tied to Psalms 90:1-2, "Lord, thou hast been our dwelling-place In all generations. (ASV) 2 Before the mountains were made, or the earth and the world was formed; from eternity and to eternity thou art God." (Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible - note in this Bible the scripture is at Psalms 89:2; DRCB). This scripture in the Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible clearly shows that God (YHWH) if from eternity; therefore, without a beginning; And this truth is further affirmed at Psalms 125:2 (Psalms 124:2 in Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible), "As the mountains are round about Jerusalem, So Jehovah is round about his people, From this time forth and forevermore." (ASV); And at Psalms 93:2 (Psalms 92:2 in Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible), "Thy throne is prepared from of old: thou art from everlasting." (ASV); And Isaiah 40:28, "Hast thou not known? Hast thou not heard? The everlasting God, Jehovah, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary; there is no searching of his understanding." (ASV); And Jeremiah 10:10, "But Jehovah is the true God; he is the living God, and an everlasting King: at his wrath the earth trembleth, and the nations are not able to abide his indignation." (ASV). We will later see that Almighty God (YHWH) gives his Son, Jesus (Yeshua), an assignment and the power to carry it out, and upon its completion he gives the kingdom he has made to his Father (YHWH), the superior one, and re-subjects himself to him as the Son of God is neither co-equal or co-eternal with his Father (YHWH). Now let's look at the two parallel scriptures dealing with the Son.
    Revelation 1:17-18, previously quoted, refers to the Son of God (YHWH), Jesus (Yeshua), and is tied to Revelation 22:13, also, previously quoted. In reference to the Son of God (YHWH), the "I am the Alpha and the Omega," clearly does NOT refer to all of eternity as it does when used with respect to his Father (YHWH) at Revelation 1:8, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end," says the Lord God, 'who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty." (The Conracternity Edition of The New Testament; CETNT) as made clear at Revelations 1:4-5, "John to the seven churches that are in Asia; Grace to you and peace, from him who is and who was and who is to come; and from the seven Spirits that are before his throne; 5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loveth us, and loosed us from our sins by his blood; 6 and he made us to be a kingdom, to be priests unto his God and Father; to hem be the glory and the dominion for ever and ever. Amen." (ASV); herein, clearly showing that Jesus' (Yeshua's) God was his own Father (YHWH), "and he made us to be a kingdom, to be priests unto his God and Father," Once more showing his subjection to His Father (YHWH) as a superior one with whom Jesus (Yeshua) thou very powerful in his own right was NOT co-equal with.
    Now let's look at his assignment, and his turnover of the kingdom at the end of his assignment to his Father, Almighty God (YHWH). We find the details at 1 Corinthians 15:22-28, "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all." (AV), testifies that God (YHWH) had given his Son, Jesus (Yeshua) over all except himself when the scripture says "it is manifest that he is excepted." Clearly showing they were distinct individuals and that the Father (YHWH) was the superior one; hence they were not CO-EQUAL.

    Your Friend in Christ Iris89
     
  9. iris89

    iris89 Active Member

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    Hi FerventGodSeeker,

    FIRST, You say that Polaris does not understand the false doctrine of the Trinity, but your post to Polaris clearly shows that you also do not understand this doctrine. Now let’s go look at the facts with respect what it is from an authoritative source.
    The Trinitarian dogma, The Cyclopoedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature, New York 1871, by John M'Clintock and James Strong, Vol. II, page 560-561, states, "We worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; neither confounding the persons, nor dividing the substance. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost is all one: the glory equal, the majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost.....The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Ghost eternal...So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Ghost almighty...So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet there are not three Gods, but one God...The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding...And in this Trinity none is afore or after other; none is greater or less than another. But the whole three persons are coeternal together, and coequal. So that in all things, as is afore said, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity." [this is the Athanasian Creed quoted in the above mentioned Cyclopoedia].

    SECOND, Your comment is in error per the above and reality,
    God (YHWH) is never spoken of as other than a singular entity in the Bible. For more information on this subject by the world’s expert, Dr.
    Gerard Gertoux, President of the French Bible Society, Who wrote a book on the subject, "The Name of God Y.eH.oW.aH Which Is Pronounced As It Is Written I_Eh_Ou_Ah", go to:

    http://love.proboards9.com/index.cgi?board=growingup&action=display&thread=1141753369

    THIRD, On Isaiah 44:24 and similar scriptures, here are the facts:
    A Jewish superstition caused Almighty God's (YHWH's) name to be substituted with substitutes in many ancient scrolls, and the un-steadfast wrestle with these instead of trying to gain understanding, but some translations have put the proper name back in where it belongs such as the American Standard Version, ASV; and The Restored Name Bible, and the New World Translation, NWT; and is some places The Living Bible or Holman Standard Christian Bible as either Jehovah or Yahweh where the Tetragrammaton or God's name (YHWH) was in the original. We shall now consider some places in the Bible where this occurred:
    …
    Isaiah 44:24:
    AV: "Thus saith the Lord, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I (am) the Lord that maketh all (things); that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself:'
    ASV: "Thus saith Jehovah, thy Redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb: I am Jehovah, that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth (who is with me?)"
    [for brevity, only pertinent parts of the scripture will be given from here on, but the reader is urged to go check them out in both the King James Bible, AV; and the American Standard Version, ASV]
    [[Now due to space limitations the article can not appear here in its entirety, so go to:

    http://love.proboards9.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=religious&thread=1145457064 A Jewish Superstition Causes Misleading Substitution

    Your Friend in Christ Iris89
     
  10. iris89

    iris89 Active Member

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    Hi Squirt

    You should look at the word ‘essence’ used in context to gain an understanding, here is an example from a historical reference work:
     
  11. iris89

    iris89 Active Member

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    Hi Squirt

    You should look at the word ‘essence’ used in context to gain an understanding, here is an example from a historical reference work:
     
  12. FerventGodSeeker

    FerventGodSeeker Believer

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  13. FerventGodSeeker

    FerventGodSeeker Believer

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  14. Polaris

    Polaris Active Member

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    So God the Father is immaterial, yet He is not spirit-only. Please explain that one to me -- it makes no sense.

    That's exactly my point -- you're implying he is not limited to physics as we understand it -- an immaterial being should not be able to be seen or heard.

    Please show me an instance in scripture where He was tangibly witnessed in two separate places at once. I believe His presence and power can be felt omnipresently.

    First you are making quite an assumption that the contextual meaning of the word "spirit" is the same for both of these verses. I could easily say that I am a Spirit -- my spirit is the part that drives me and gives me life -- hence I'm a spirit. That does not mean in any way that I don't have a physical body. Secondly in John 4:24 Jesus is teaching that we must worship God in spirit because He is a spiritual being (not necessarily spirit-only). Through the spirit is the only way we can truly worship him, so in this context it makes perfect sense to say that God is Spirit without implying that He doesn't have a body.

    Again you seem to contradict yourself. Do you not believe that Jesus and God are one? How can He then have flesh and bones and yet be immaterial?

    I believe this means invisible as in the God who we don't see (because He doesn't just show Himself to people except in speical circumstances), not as in the God who can't be seen.

    No. Stephen's vision made this quite clear as he saw Jesus standing on the right hand of God. This shows quite convincingly that they are separate individuals that can be seen.

    I said that the NT teaches that we will have a resurrected body like that of Christ's -- incorruptable and immortal. There are no passages that explicitly say that the Father "has a body", but there are many scriptures that strongly indicate that He does (ie those that make reference to his body parts, and the fact that we're made in his image). There are no scriptures that say "he has no body".

    No I don't believe he has wings -- wings are almost always referred to in a figurative sense. Fingers, a mouth, a face, a hand, etc. tend to be used in a more literal way. Maybe you are applying figurative interpretations a little too liberally.

    Again, who is he talking to? His people at the time of Isaiah and indirectly us. His statements make perfect sense considering who they are directed to. For us there was and will never be another God. There is no need for the text to contain a condition or qualifying statement because we all fall under that condition. The fact is neither of us can prove we're right so on this point we'll just have to agree to disagree.

    That's your opinion -- the fact that we are offspring of God and heirs to God implies differently.

    Again, for us he has always been and always will be God so this verse makes perfect sense. Again there is no need for a conditional statement because we all fall under that condition.

    Let me clarify my belief. We will never be equal to God because as we increase He increases. Also no matter how far we progress He wll always be our Father and our God. I believe that we have the potential to become equal to how God is now, but by the time we reach that point He will have increased even more.

    My whole analogy was made from the Father's perspective. Sure if as children our only desire it to become an all-powerful God -- that is a bit self-centered -- but if our desire is to become truly like our Father -- that's not.

    However, a Father who is content to restrict his children to a state of existance considerably less than His own is in my opinion a bit self-centered.

    The statement about God once being like man is not part of the LDS canonized scripture, but the doctrine that we may one day become gods is. All I'm saying is that there are scriptures and statements (canonized or not) by LDS prophets that support the beliefs that I've presented.
     
  15. FerventGodSeeker

    FerventGodSeeker Believer

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    No, I didn't say that. I said God was not Spirit-only, I did not specify God the Father. The Son is the image of the invisible God, who took on a human nature, not the Father. The Father and the Holy Spirit do not have bodies.


    That's not true. Light is immaterial, yet we see it. Dreams are immaterial, yet we can see them in our minds (recall that God revealed Himself a number of times in dreams and visions). Sounds are immaterial, yet we hear them.


    "And the Holy Spirit descended in bodily form like a dove upon Him (Jesus), and a voice came from heaven which said, 'You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased." Luke 3:22
    Jesus and the Holy Spirit, both fully God, are seen distinctly from one another. The Father, also fully God, is heard distinctly from the other two.

    "No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven." John 3:13
    While this is not an instance where God is witnessed in two places at once, it is an indication of God's literal omnipresence. This verse is Jesus speaking on earth...yet He, while on earth, says that He is in heaven. This clearly indicates that He is able to be in more than one place at one time.

    The Greek word in both verses is pneuma...you would have to indicate how the word means different things in the two verses.
    No, you couldn't say that. You could say you HAVE a spirit, that doesn't mean you ARE a spirit...big difference. You also have a body, but you are not JUST a body.
    Saying you ARE a spirit WOULD indicate that you don't have a physical body, as Jesus explained in the verse I just cited, "a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have."
    Define how God is a "spiritual being", if this does not imply that He is a spirit, which means He has no body?

    Yes, I believe Jesus is God. He has both a human nature and a divine nature. In His human nature, He has a physical body. However, in His divine nature, He is Spirit, and therefore is able to be omnipresent.

    Fair enough


    You'll have to demonstrate how references to God's wings are different than references to His mouth, face, hands, etc. All seem quite figurative to me.

    "Keep me as the apple of Your eye; hide me under the shadow of your wings," Psalm 17:8
    "When I consider the heavens, the work of Your fingers, the moon and the stars, which You have ordained," Psalm 8:3
    "Do not hide Your face from me; do not turn your servant away in anger; You have been my help; do not leave me or forsake me, O God of my salvation." Psalm 27:8
    "Father, into Your hands I commit My spirit." Luke 23:46


    "Before Me there was no God formed." Even if directed at us, that couldn't be any more point blank clear. He is telling US that there was no God formed before Him. It has nothing to do contextually with us just worshipping this God, or just knowing about this God...it says point blank that no Gods were formed before Him. It also says there will be no Gods formed after Him. Even if you're going to claim that it is only directed conditionally at us, that would still mean that none of us will become Gods.

    It's not my opinion, it's the nature of language and the definition of words. Becoming "like" something does not mean literally BECOMING that thing. An offspring is not identical to its parent, nor is an heir identical to the one from whom he receives his inheritance.

    What does "everlasting to everlasting" mean to you? We are told that He has been God "from everlasting to everlasting". Again, this has nothing to do with us or our perspective, it is a point blank statement.

    How can a God who is omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, perfect, holy, righteous, and true, possibly increase in stature or power?

    And again, as we've covered, becoming "like" the Father doesn't mean becoming equal to Him or exactly as He is.

    Then you obviously consider God to be self-centered, who says point blank that He alone is God and no other Gods will be formed after Him.

    FerventGodSeeker
     
  16. Jerrell

    Jerrell Active Member

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    Are you speaking of the Trinity of God?
     
  17. FerventGodSeeker

    FerventGodSeeker Believer

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    Yes, last I checked;)
     
  18. Jerrell

    Jerrell Active Member

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    God is only a Spirit, Jesus said this, God is a Spirit. And He is a Spirit only. Sometimes he may take human form but HE himself is just a Spirit
     
  19. Squirt

    Squirt Well-Known Member

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  20. FerventGodSeeker

    FerventGodSeeker Believer

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