1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Discourse On The Trinity Mystery With Three Questions:

Discussion in 'Christianity DIR' started by iris89, Dec 27, 2004.

  1. alexander garcia

    alexander garcia Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2006
    Messages:
    275
    Ratings:
    +5
    Hi again real quick The Fathe is Greater than I. Who said it and where ?
     
  2. barnabus

    barnabus Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2006
    Messages:
    113
    Ratings:
    +9
    If Mormons disbelieve the Trinity, then why is it written?

    "The trinity is three separate Gods: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. "That these three are separate individuals, physically distinct from each other, is demonstrated by the accepted records of divine dealings with man." (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 35.)

    If there is but one God, as the Bible does say, why do the Mormons state the existence of three seperate deities?
     
  3. lunamoth

    lunamoth Will to love

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2006
    Messages:
    9,871
    Ratings:
    +1,630
    Religion:
    Episcopalian
    Thank you, that is clear. I'd write more but I seem to be having trouble posting here today.

    cheers,
    lunamoth
     
  4. Squirt

    Squirt Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2006
    Messages:
    1,239
    Ratings:
    +158
    These are the words of Jesus Christ, as recorded in John 14:28 "Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I." He said it and I believe He meant it.
     
  5. Squirt

    Squirt Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2006
    Messages:
    1,239
    Ratings:
    +158
    When James Talmage referred to the Trinity, he was using the term loosely. I suppose you could say that we believe in a trinity of sorts, since we do believe in the Godhead as described in the Bible, which is comprised of God the Eternal Father, His Son Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost. But we do not believe in the Trinity as described in the 4th and 5th century Creeds.

    First, here are some passages from the Book of Mormon, which is about as definitive a source of official LDS doctrine as you can find.

    2 Nephi 31:21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

    Mosiah 15:5 And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people.

    Alma 11:44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but every thing shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.

    3 Nephi 11:27 And after this manner shall ye baptize in my name; for behold, verily I say unto you, that the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost are one; and I am in the Father, and the Father in me, and the Father and I are one.

    Mormon 7:7 And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.

    We believe in three divine beings who share the title of God. See my response #79 to Lunamoth for a more detailed explanation of our belief.
     
  6. sojourner

    sojourner Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2006
    Messages:
    35,709
    Ratings:
    +4,996
    Religion:
    Christian/Shamanic
    It's both. We are human beings. But God calls us to do. The Trinity is the nature, not only of what God is, but also what God does. God creates...Father. God redeems...Son. God comforts and inspires...Holy Spirit. These are the basic actions God takes within humanity. They work within the same essence, toward the same purpose, but in distinct persons. When Jesus was on earth, he was both fully human and fully divine. Therefore, he is able to say things like, "The Father is greater than me," because Jesus was fully human. He was also able to say things like, "The Father and I are One," because Jesus was fully divine.
     
  7. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2005
    Messages:
    2,780
    Ratings:
    +200
    Well, stated, Jesus in human form could say God is greater than me, and that the Father and I are One, because he is God, too. Talmage was wrong saying The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are separate Gods, they are the one triune God. For there is only one God. The Bible clearly says there is one God and he never changes. Yet according to some God was once man and attained Godhood and was 'dubbed' a God by a council of other Gods, which is blashphemy of the Holy Scripture. But, to each his own.
     
  8. Squirt

    Squirt Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2006
    Messages:
    1,239
    Ratings:
    +158
    But in His resurrected form He could no longer say this? Why is that?

    Talmage does not define LDS doctrine. Our Standard Works do. In my post #85 above, I gave five examples of official LDS doctrine (all from the Book of Mormon). Which ones do you find to be false and why?

    Yup, I agree.
     
  9. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2005
    Messages:
    2,780
    Ratings:
    +200
    Hi Squirt, I won't debate Mormonism with you, I know you are sincere in your beliefs. I understand you all fall back on your standard works when we question other doctrines, like that God was once a man who worked his way to Godhood, and such, so even though many of you all do believe just that, even though God does not change and is from everlasting, I cannot debate it since its not in your standard works, so I won't. I believe Satan was a created being, an angel, whereas Christ was the only begotten, not created, son of God. That is the ONLY, not one of many 'spirit babies' or whatnot, but again, I cannot debate. since that is probably not in your standard works, or is it? I dunno, I don't debate with LDS, they just tend to put me on their ignore lists, and by the way, if you see Jonny, tell him again I am sorry to offend him, and it would be nice if he took me off his ignore list, I love and respect him, and am sorry he feels how he feels. I know you all know your doctrine very well, and believe it with all your hearts, as I do mine. I just don't want to fight about it. If you care, I guess you could read some of the what you all call 'anti-mormon' sites, to see if any of it makes any sense to you, but I doubt it will. Well, good luck, and I will agree to disagree with you if you will with me. Peace.
     
  10. FerventGodSeeker

    FerventGodSeeker Believer

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2006
    Messages:
    1,697
    Ratings:
    +150
    If the Trinity was a doctrine alledgedly created at the Council of Nicea in 325 AD, then why is the doctrine, even the specific word, used in Christian writings well before that time?

    "It is the attribute of God, of the most high and almighty and of the living God, not only to be everywhere, but also to see and hear all; for he can in no way be contained in a place...The three days before the luminaries were created are types of the Trinity: God, His Word, and His Wisdom." To Autolychus 2:15 (181 AD)

    "And at the same time the mystery of the oikonomia is safeguarded, for the unity is distributed in a Trinity. Placed in order, the three are the Father, Son, and Spirit. They are three, however, not in condition, but in degree; not in being, but in form; not in power, but in kind; of one being, however, and one condition and one power, because he is one God of whom degrees and forms and kinds are taken into account in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." Against Praxeas 2 (216 AD)

    "For it is the Trinity alone which exceeds every sense in which not only temporal but even eternal may be understood. It is all other things, indeed, which are outside the Trinity, which are to be measured by time and ages." The Fundamental Doctrines 4:4:1 (225 AD)

    FerventGodSeeker
     
  11. iris89

    iris89 Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2004
    Messages:
    434
    Ratings:
    +21
    Hi FerventGodSeeker
    You ask many questions that are best answered by going to the following links.
    [1]
    http://love.proboards9.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=religious&thread=1135862671&page=1 Documentary on our savior Jesus (Yeshua)
    [2]
    http://love.proboards9.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=religious&thread=1135723580&page=1 On Mainstream Christianity
    [3]
    http://preacher.proboards7.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=belief&thread=1139935138 Documentary on Book of John being anti-Trinitarian
    [4]
    http://preacher.proboards7.com/index.cgi?board=belief&action=display&thread=1137232810 discourse Belief In The Trinity A Distinguishing Feature
    [5]
    http://www.network54.com/Forum/388928/thread/1108488823/last-1137459878/Trinity+is+Absurd
    Trinity is Absurd
    [6]
    http://www.network54.com/Forum/388928/thread/1117155273/last-1131684762/Sent+Ones+Are+Subordinate+Ones- Sent Ones Are Subordinate Ones
    [7]
    http://preacher.proboards7.com/index.cgi?board=belief&action=display&thread=1137232810 discourse Belief In The Trinity A Distinguishing Feature
    If, after reading the above you have any questions, get back with me by email at
    [email protected], but NOT before as I feel certain that the above should answer your questions.
    Your Friend in Christ Iris89
     
  12. FerventGodSeeker

    FerventGodSeeker Believer

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2006
    Messages:
    1,697
    Ratings:
    +150
    I hope you understand that I have not nearly enough time to read all these websites. I could equally drown you in a sea of websites that support the Trinity historically, Biblically, philosophically, etc. However, I asked a simple, straightforward question, and would like a simple straightforward answer. Early on in this thread, you claimed that the Trinity was a doctrine invented at the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD. There are, however (as I showed) numerous historically documented instances of both the doctrine, and even specific phrase "Trinity", being used and preached by Christians well before then. How, then, can you claim that the doctrine was invented much later on? Or do you now retract that claim?

    FerventGodSeeker
     
  13. iris89

    iris89 Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2004
    Messages:
    434
    Ratings:
    +21
    Hi Hi FerventGodSeeker__

    Your comment,
    FIRST, I never retract a true claim so get real. I gave you straight forward answers in my research reports that delve into the real facts that I as a researcher have dug out. What you gave is two so called sources from misleading Apologist nonsense and NOT from legitimate historical sources.

    SECOND, With respect what the earliest Christians believed, go to the following:
    http://love.proboards9.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=religious&thread=1145288217&page=1 Discourse on What The Earliest Christians Believed

    THIRD, Here is a question for you.
    John 5:26, "For as the Father hath life in himself, even so gave he to the Son also to have life in himself:" (American Standard Version; ASV)
    John 6:57, "As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father; so he that eateth me, he also shall live because of me." (ASV)

    By the words of Jesus, Jesus was not eternal; he was given to have life in himself and lives because of the Father. A eternal being cannot be given to have life in themselves, and they do not depend on others to live.
    FOURTH, You should be seeking to learn and not to try and create unloving debates. I am a researcher, a digger for facts, and a presenter of facts, and you should seek to learn from the facts I dig out and present in research reports; now do not be lazy.

    Your Friend in Christ Iris89
     
  14. Feathers in Hair

    Feathers in Hair World's Tallest Hobbit

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2004
    Messages:
    14,605
    Ratings:
    +1,796
    Just as a heads up, please note that rudeness and incivility is as frowned on in the IR sections as it is in the debate sections. Please keep this in mind in the future.
     
  15. FerventGodSeeker

    FerventGodSeeker Believer

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2006
    Messages:
    1,697
    Ratings:
    +150
     
  16. Polaris

    Polaris Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2006
    Messages:
    951
    Ratings:
    +60
    Hi FerventGodSeeker,

    I've found that I agree with you on a lot of issues and find you to have a good sense of reason. This is one of the few topics however that we disagree and I'm curious to hear your understanding of the trinity based on scriptural teachings. To me it seems that the Bible teaches quite clearly that God the Father and Jesus Christ are father and son and are two distinct individuals.
     
  17. FerventGodSeeker

    FerventGodSeeker Believer

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2006
    Messages:
    1,697
    Ratings:
    +150
    Hi Polaris. Thanks for your kind words ( at least SOMEONE thinks I make some sense, lol). Because you are LDS, your and my understandings of God, specifically the Trinity, are totally different although we may use some of the same terminology. When I speak of the Trinity, I mean that there is one God alone, who has revealed Himself and exists as 3 distinct persons. These persons are not three different gods, nor are they three thirds of a God that come together to make a whole God. They are all totally and completely divine (i.e. timeless, immaterial, eternal, omnipresent, omnipotent, etc), and yet are all one God. Biblically, this doctrine is seen implicitly, yet not explicitly. The word "Trinity" is not used in the Bible, and there is no one verse or passage that summarizes it completely. It is a doctrine arrived at implicitly by looking at the Bible as a whole. As you noted, the Father and Son (and also the Holy Spirit) are distinct persons. They have distinct wills and act separately (although interdependently). Since we agree on this (I think), I won't spend a lot of time explaining it. Where I think our disagreement arrives, is that you believe that each of the persons of the Trinity are each distinct Gods - that is, "God" is more like a title rather than a specific person. From what I know of Mormon theology, you believe that there are many gods, that the Christian God was once a man like us on another planet, and that we have the capability to become gods. I disagree with this, and I believe that there truly is only One God. Biblically, this seems to me to be abundantly clear.

    "Therefore know this day, and consider it in your heart, that the LORD Himself is God in heaven above and on the earth beneath; there is no other." Deuteronomy 4:39

    "For You are great, and do wondrous things; You alone are God." Psalm 86:10

    "Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and He who formed you from the womb: 'I am the LORD, who makes all things, who stretches out the heavens all alone, who spreads abroad the earth by Myself;" Isaiah 44:24

    "How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God?" John 5:44


    "Therefore concerning the eating of things offered to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no other God but one." 1 Corinthians 8:4

    When we take these verse into account, along with the knowledge that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all distinct, we arrive at the doctrine that there is only One God who exists as three persons.

    FerventGodSeeker



     
  18. Polaris

    Polaris Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2006
    Messages:
    951
    Ratings:
    +60


    Just to be clear, so are you saying that you believe that God the Father and Jesus Christ are distinct and separate beings? Or do you believe they are the same physical substance -- distinct personages rolled into one mysterious entity?

    Let me clarify a little -- I'm not sure what you mean by distinct Gods. I believe that God the Father is "God" and is the ultimate authority over all of His creations and is the Father of our spirits. Jesus Christ is His son -- the Only Begotton in the flesh. He shares the title of God and acts as God under the direction of His Father. The Holy Ghost is the third member of the Godhead who also shares the title of God and similarly acts as such under the direction of God the Father. They are all "one" in the sense that they are all perfectly united in objective and purpose. For this reason, when God is referred to in the scriptures it could have reference to any or all of the three members of the Godhead depending on the context.

    As far as our existance and salvation are concerned there is indeed only one God. There is only one God that we are commanded to worship, pray to, and obey. In that context all of the scriptures that you stated are perfectly consistent with Mormon theology.

    True we believe that man may become like God. He is our Father who loves us and wants us to have and be all that he has and is just as any loving father would want. In His infinite power and mercy He has made that possible as expressed in Romans 8:16-17 which states that as children of God we are heirs of God, and joint heirs with Christ. In that respect yes you could say that we believe there are many gods. Paul described it well in 1 Corinthians 8:5-6: For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many and lords many). But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in Him, and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by Him." Though there may be many gods, as far as our salvation is concerned there is indeed only one.

     
  19. FerventGodSeeker

    FerventGodSeeker Believer

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2006
    Messages:
    1,697
    Ratings:
    +150
     
  20. Polaris

    Polaris Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2006
    Messages:
    951
    Ratings:
    +60


    How do you explain Christ showing His resurrected physical body? What purpose did that serve if Christ/God is not a physical entity? Further if God is not a physical entity why would he create us, his children, as physical beings?



    What exactly to you mean by divinely "one'?

    The point is that any other gods that may exist are not pertinent to our existance or salvation so mention of them is not necessary or often appropriate since our Father is our one God and the only author of our salvation.

    Hebrews 1: 2.
    Hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds.

    Jesus may very well have actually realized the creation by Himself, but this verse seems to indicate that He did it under the direction of the Father, or in other words that the Father created the worlds by or through His son.


    I agree. Our Father will always be our God and will always be greater than us.

    Correct, though I would argue that the statement in parenthesis is not clear whether it is a reference to the "called" gods or a declaration that there are indeed many true gods.

    Either way the fact that we can be heirs to God implies that we can become gods on some level and in that sense there there are or will be many gods.

    By oneness here I wasn't referring to His nature. I was referring to the fact that for us there is one God or Godhead.
     
Loading...