Discourse On The Trinity Mystery With Three Questions:

[sojourner]

So incredibly well said....................

One of the things that has really surprised me (since joining a Religious Forum - this being the first one where I became a member), was the vast array of 'brand names'. The feeling of "I have it right!" shouts, replied to with a "No you are wrong, my religion is more correct than yours" actually upsets me.

It is as though we are all fighting to get to the top of a mountain............yet, the summit is the same, whichever track you take.

....such a shame, isn't it?

I like what you said here, and in your last sentence, especially. You're right! This is not a race to see who's first. I rather suspect we all cross the finish line as a big, happy group.:hug:

 

[barnabus]

The big question concerning the Trinity to me is simply whether the Trinity is a manifestation of God, or a metaphore of His nature. Is the Trinity what God is, or is it what God does?

 

[Squirt]

The big question concerning the Trinity to me is simply whether the Trinity is a manifestation of God, or a metaphore of His nature. Is the Trinity what God is, or is it what God does?

What do you think it is, barnabus? As a Baptist, you believe in the Trinity, don't you? Since I don't, I'm not even going to attempt to answer your question. I would like to hear your thoughts on the subject, though.

 

[barnabus]

A second metaphor of the Trinity I came upon involves a little more rational thought.

Think of the basic principles of geometry. A point has no dimensions, but take two points and you can enter the first dimension(length), creating a line. Take four lines and you can enter the second dimension(length and width) by creating a square, and then add a few more squares and you can make a cube, thus entering the third dimension(lenght, width, and heighth).

Now notice that in geometry that a you climb higher in the dimension, you do not leave the simple structures behind( points and lines), but instead combine then in new, more complex ways( squares and cubes). It is much the same with the Trinity. The human dimension is a simple and rather empty level, in which one identity is one being and two identities are two seperate beings. But take things higher, to the divine dimension, and things are far more intricate. There three persons can be one entity, but of course we cannot imagine just how, not anymore than a blind man could imagine sight. But we can get a general idea.

See says the blind man?

 

[barnabus]

To answer Squirt, I am in the waying of believing the theory of the ontological trinity( who God is) mostly because it makes the most sense.

 

[Squirt]

Lunamoth,

First of all, what is ECUSA? I'm sorry to be so uninformed?

Ever notice how non-trinitarian types need a really big unabridged dictionary and lots of 'splainin to get their point across? Wouldn't it be easier to just say, well, we see it differently. No need to argue.

Oddly enough, I see it just the opposite. I've never heard a Trinitarian be able to explain what he believes in such a way that I can make heads or tails of it. It's way over my head! I'll stick to the scriptures, thanks!

Isis, why do you think one's mortal soul would be in danger simply from having a different understanding of their relationship with God than you do? I'm pretty sure no one has the whole picture. Do you really think God is going to grade us on how right we are? Isn't it more important that we just do our best to love God and each other?

You obviously don't know Iris.

The approach taken in the OP of this thread seems quite legalistic to me. Not like the God of love and grace I know.

I'm not a Trinitarian, but I'll agree with you there.

 

[Squirt]

To answer Squirt, I am in the waying of believing the theory of the ontological trinity( who God is) mostly because it makes the most sense.

Sorry, barnabus, but since I don't believe in the Trinity, your answer didn't make sense to me. Would you mind elaborating? Thanks.

 

[Squirt]

There three persons can be one entity, but of course we cannot imagine just how

But where does the Bible say they are "one entity"? And how, exactly, would you explain what that "entity" is?

 

[lunamoth]

Lunamoth,

First of all, what is ECUSA? I'm sorry to be so uninformed?

Hi Squirt, pleased to meet you. ECUSA is the Episcopal Church. Guess I should clear that up in my profile as it seems to confuse most people.

Oddly enough, I see it just the opposite. I've never heard a Trinitarian be able to explain what he believes in such a way that I can make heads or tails of it. It's way over my head! I'll stick to the scriptures, thanks!

Fair enough. To me it comes down to who do you trust. I trust the authority of the Church who canonized the Bible. I trust the Church because I trust the Holy Spirit, Who accomplishes Her work in spite of our human frailties, fallibilities, and downright sinfulness. But again, if one is sticking to the Love commandments then I don't really worry about anything else.

You obviously don't know Iris.

I'm not a Trinitarian, but I'll agree with you there.

I don't know Iris, but she appears to be a hard worker.

peace,
lunamoth

 

[barnabus]

Scriptures regarding the Trinity


Jesus is called God.
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."-John 1:1

"The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."-John 1:14

"'I tell you the truth', Jesus answered, 'before Abraham was born, I am!'"-John 8:58

"I and the Father are one."-John 10:30

"For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form"- Col 2:9

"When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades."- Rev 1:17-18

to be continued

 

[michel]

The big question concerning the Trinity to me is simply whether the Trinity is a manifestation of God, or a metaphore of His nature. Is the Trinity what God is, or is it what God does?

Personally, I do not see it as a metaphore. The understanding of the trinity to me is that God encompasses all three aspects; the holy Ghost, Jesus Christ the Son, and God the Father.

A simple way of explaining it (if you are prepared to accept a visual image), is that God is able to 'spilt himself up' at will, into the three entities; they are all him, they will always all be him, but they can appear as individual 'parts of a whole'.........if that makes sense.

 

[lunamoth]

A simple way of explaining it (if you are prepared to accept a visual image), is that God is able to 'spilt himself up' at will, into the three entities; they are all him, they will always all be him, but they can appear as individual 'parts of a whole'.........if that makes sense.

An interesting way of explaining it, michel. Another way I think of it is that God is not really splitting up, but because of our limitations that is the way we perceive it. So, for all intents and purposes the Three Persons are indeed quite real, and quite One.

cheers,
lunamoth

 

[Squirt]

Personally, I do not see it as a metaphore. The understanding of the trinity to me is that God encompasses all three aspects; the holy Ghost, Jesus Christ the Son, and God the Father.

A simple way of explaining it (if you are prepared to accept a visual image), is that God is able to 'spilt himself up' at will, into the three entities; they are all him, they will always all be him, but they can appear as individual 'parts of a whole'.........if that makes sense.

Sorry, Michel, but what you're saying doesn't make sense. Jesus Christ was a whole, physical man who walked the earth for 33 years. He wasn't merely part of His Father. The scriptures say that He ascended to Heaven and sits today on the right hand side of His Father. If you believe that God is able to "split himself up" at will, please at least give me some kind of a reason to believe that there is some credence to what you are saying. Tell me why you conceive of God as "split up." And, while you're at it, please explain how Jesus Christ (a corporeal being on earth) could simultaneously be part of a non-corporeal being whose essence fills the entire universe. I'm trying to understand this, seriously. But it's just way, way too far removed from what the scriptures say about God and His Son for me to be able to make heads or tails out of it.

 

[joeboonda]

It is funny how people argue about the doctrine of the Trinity, I don't see the fuss. God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit and these are one is how I understand, why the fuss? Unless one does not believe in Jesus or the New Testament, then how can we debate? Or if one believes Christ was created and not begotten of the Father, than maybe that is an issue, I don't know. I believe in the Trinity, I believe in God and in Jesus and in the Holy Spirit. I don't see the big fuss.

 

[Squirt]

It is funny how people argue about the doctrine of the Trinity, I don't see the fuss. God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit and these are one is how I understand, why the fuss? Unless one does not believe in Jesus or the New Testament, then how can we debate? Or if one believes Christ was created and not begotten of the Father, than maybe that is an issue, I don't know. I believe in the Trinity, I believe in God and in Jesus and in the Holy Spirit. I don't see the big fuss.

Well, that's all well and good, but the fact remains that there are many of us who believe both in Jesus Christ and in the New Testament who still don't believe in the Trinity.

 

[lunamoth]

Well, that's all well and good, but the fact remains that there are many of us who believe both in Jesus Christ and in the New Testament who still don't believe in the Trinity.

Hi Squirt,

I am confused, and admit to not knowing much about LDS beliefs (you are LDS, correct?), but I thought that LDSs do believe in the Trinity. Could you clear this up for me (or perhaps I am just mistaken in thinking you are a LDS).

peace,
lunamoth

 

[joeboonda]

What some call the Trinity, some call the Godhead. When you go into differences of doctrine between what I call mainline christian churches, and LDS doctrine, is where it gets complex, and I am bowing out of that one. We all believe so close and use the same words, that we end up hurting each other. May we all find the truth as the Holy Spirit leads us.

 

[lunamoth]

What some call the Trinity, some call the Godhead. When you go into differences of doctrine between what I call mainline christian churches, and LDS doctrine, is where it gets complex, and I am bowing out of that one. We all believe so close and use the same words, that we end up hurting each other. May we all find the truth as the Holy Spirit leads us.

peace Joe, and I am not looking for a debate. I agree with what you say above. Nevertheless, I like to hear what others say as I always like to compare it to what I think, refining my own understanding.
lunamoth

 

[Squirt]

Hi Squirt,

I am confused, and admit to not knowing much about LDS beliefs (you are LDS, correct?), but I thought that LDSs do believe in the Trinity. Could you clear this up for me (or perhaps I am just mistaken in thinking you are a LDS).

peace,
lunamoth

Hi, Luna.

Yes, I'm LDS. We believe in God the Eternal Father and in His Son Jesus Christ and in the Holy Ghost. These are three divine beings who together constitute the Godhead spoken of in the scriptures. They are physically distinct from one another, but are otherwise perfectly "one" in will and purpose. Their unity in mind and heart is absolute and beyond our comprehension. The Father and the Son are both glorified, celestial beings of flesh and bone. The Holy Ghost, as His name/title implies, is a being of spirit only. It is through the Holy Ghost that the Father and the Son interact with humanity today. All three share the name/title of "God," and all three have the same divine attributes. The Father, however, is supreme. He always has been and always will be. The Son is second in supremacy, followed by the Holy Ghost.

Thanks for asking for the clarification. I hope my explanation helped.

Squirt

 

[alexander garcia]

Hi, I found it interestingand it is to the historical facts. Go to scripture and read Isa chapters 40 to 50 just drop the LORD and put in the true YHVH because this is one not two or three, and HE says so over and over.