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Discourse On The Trinity Mystery With Three Questions:

Discussion in 'Christianity DIR' started by iris89, Dec 27, 2004.

  1. iris89

    iris89 Active Member

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    Discourse On The Trinity Mystery With Three Questions:

    Many groups and denominations often claim hat trinity myth is a big mystery.

    With their claim of it being a mystery, it is, the Trinity is a mystery just like all frauds worked against mankind. It is nothing but the deceitful product of the human mind and absolutely finds not support in reality. It was adopted because of the driving force of two Roman Empire Emperors over two great church councils of an apostate church, the Council of Nicea in 325 A.D. under the absolute control of Emperor Constantine, a pagan Emperor who worshipped a sun God, and the Council of Constantinople of 381 A.D., under the control of Emperor Theodosius. In other words this fraud was the political product of two Roman Empire Emperors who knew little about Christianity and cared less. Their objective was not to keep the faith pure, but to do what ever was necessary to obtain religious unity within the empire to strengthen it. "A Short History of Christian Doctrine," states, "Constantine had basically no understanding whatsoever of the questions that were being asked in Greek theology." However, both emperors, Constantine and Theodosius, understood very well that the religious division of the empire at that time was a very real threat to the empire (Roman) and they wanted to solidify their domain.

    Of this so called mystery the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, volume 4 [From page 3012-3014], states,

    "The term 'Trinity' is not a Biblical term and we are not using Biblical language when we define what is expressed by it as the doctrine that there is one only and true God, but in the unity of the Godhead there are three coeternal and coequal Persons, the same in substance but distinct in subsistence. A doctrine so defined can be spoken of as a Biblical doctrine only on the principle that the sense of Scripture is Scripture. And the definition of a Biblical doctrine in such un-Biblical language can be justified only on the principle that it is better to preserve the truth of Scripture than the words of Scripture.

    "...the doctrine of the Trinity is given to us in Scripture, not in formulated doctrine, but in fragmentary allusions.

    "The doctrine of the Trinity is purely a revealed doctrine. That is to say, it embodies a truth which has never been discovered, and is indiscoverable, by natural reason.

    "Triads of divinities, no doubt, occur in nearly all polytheistic religions, formed under very various influences. Sometimes, as in the Egyptian triad of Osiris, Isis and Horus, it is the analogy of the human family with its father, mother and son which lies at their basis. Sometimes they are the effect of mere syncretism, three deities worshipped in different localities being brought together in the common worship of all.

    "Sometimes they are the result apparently of nothing more than odd human tendency to think in threes, which has given the number three wide-spread standing as a sacred number.

    "It should be needless to say that none of these triads has the slightest resemblance to the Christian doctrine of the Trinity.

    "As the doctrine of the Trinity is indiscoverable by reason, so it is incapable of proof from reason. There are no analogies to it in Nature, not even in the spiritual nature of man, who is made in the image of God. In His Trinitarian mode of being, God is unique; and, as there is nothing in the universe like Him in this respect, so there is nothing which can help us to comprehend Him. Many attempts have, nevertheless, been made to construct a rational proof of the Trinity of the Godhead.

    "Certainly we cannot speak broadly of the revelation of the doctrine of the Trinity in the Old Testament. It is a plain matter of fact that none who have depended on the revelation embodied in the Old Testament alone have ever attained to the doctrine of the Trinity.

    "It would seem clear that we must recognize in the Old Testament doctrine of the relation of God to His revelation by the creative Word and the Spirit, at least the germ of the distinctions in the Godhead afterward fully made known in the Christian revelation."

    NOW QUESTION TIME FOR THOSE NOT UNDERSTANDING THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN MYTHS AND REALITY:

    (1-question) Now a question for you, Matthew says of the temptation of Jesus (Jeshua or YHWH saves), "Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. 2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.

    3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.

    4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. 5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, 6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. 7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. 8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; 9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. 10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. 11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him." (Matthew 4:1-11, Authorized King James Bible, AV).

    This was clearly a test of loyalty, would Jesus (Jeshua or YHWH) keep his loyalty to Almighty God (YHWH) or not. However, if he were God as per the Trinity doctrine, how could God rebel against himself and be disloyal to himself? [Please explain]

    2-question) Let's assume for a moment that Jesus were part of a Godhead, i.e., a Trinity, the ransom price would have been infinitely higher than what God's (YHWH's) own Law required per "And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, 24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe." (Exodus 21:23-25 AV) and "And if a man cause a blemish in his neighbour; as he hath done, so shall it be done to him; 20 Breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him again. 21 And he that killeth a beast, he shall restore it: and he that killeth a man, he shall be put to death." (Leviticus 24:19-21, AV).

    Remember it was only a perfect human, Adam, who sinned in Eden, not God. Thus the ransom, to be equivalent or in line with God's (YHWH's) justice, had to be strictly an equivalent, i.e., a perfect human, "the last Adam." Therefore, when God sent Jesus to earth as the ransom, he made Jesus to be what would equate or satisfy justice, not an incarnation, nor a god-man, but a perfect man, " But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man." (Hebrews 2:9 AV). How could any part of an almighty Godhead (Trinity) of Father (YHWH) , Son (Jesus), or holy spirit ever be lower than angels? [Please explain]

    3-question) Supporters of the Trinity claim that in the case of Jesus, "only-begotten" is different from the dictionary definition of "begetting," that is "to procreate as the father," [Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary]. They claim that in Jesus case it means "a sort of only son relationship without the begetting; however, "Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words." Now does that sound logical to you? Can a man father a son without begetting him? [Please explain]

    For more information go to my following very long articles on this subject and really learn the facts:

    Documentary on the Book of John Being Anti-Trinitarian-In Multiple Parts:

    http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=97

    and;

    Trinity = Absurd to the Extreme:

    http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=61

    and;

    Colossians 2:8-12 & John 1:1 - Learn The Facts

    http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=93

    and;

    Scourge of Christendom, The Pagan Trinity:

    http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=58



    Your Friend in Christ Iris89
     
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  2. SpiritualSon

    SpiritualSon Member

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    I haven't been here for sometime. A trinity is the soul, body and spirit of the person. We are a trinity, but a trinity of one person. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit is the Soul, Body and Spirit of Jesus Christ. 1 Thessalonians 5:23 “And may the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord.

    Harry
     
  3. iris89

    iris89 Active Member

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    Hi Harry

    What are you trying to say?

    Your Friend in Christ Iris89
     
  4. iris89

    iris89 Active Member

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    Hi FeathersinHair

    No it is a statement of fact. The fact is that the trinity was a pagan doctrine that was adopted at the Council of Nicea of 325 ad to win the favor of a pagan Roman Emperor, Constantine, a worshipper of the Unconquered Sun who needed this compromise with paganism by so called Christians as he wanted to bring religious unity to his empire which was weak at the time. There are many history books and encyclopedias that will back up this fact and you should go check out the truth of what I am saying.

    Your friend in Christ Iris89
     
  5. Feathers in Hair

    Feathers in Hair World's Tallest Hobbit

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    Editted for content
     
  6. iris89

    iris89 Active Member

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    Hi FeathersinHair

    I disagree, telling the truth is never wrong, and I am not attacking anyone. I am trying to assist all with regard to seeing the truth as I happen to be an Ordained Minister of the Gospe and part of my commission naturally is exposing false doctrine.

    In case you have not noticed, there are approximately 22,000 religions that claim to be Christian, but Jesus (Yeshua) clearly showed that there should be unity. Why, so many? Simple, because many have gone off after the teachings of men instead of adhering to Biblical truths. I am simply exposing a false doctrine with a view to assisting others; you might say a wake-up call. I am not out to insult and/or attack anyone, only to expose wrong thinking, and I am willing to discuss the facts with anyone.

    The truth of my position is clearly shown in the Bible since Christ when he was on earth clearly said his flock of true footstep followers would be small in number.
    First let's consider both Luke 13:24 and Matthew 7:13-14, it is in both of these that the road followed by true believers would be narrow and cramped, Luke 13:24, "Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able." (Authorized King James Bible: AV); And Matthew 7:13-14, "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, abroad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." (AV); thereby, clearly showing few would be entering the narrow gate "which leadeth unto life." In reality, it will be difficult for even true Christians to enter as testified to at 1 Peter 4:18, "And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear." (AV). In order to enter, we must have the right sort of guide, Luke 1:79, "To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace." (AV). Now, if one picks the wrong group, just because it is popular or the so called 'one to belong to in a community' and not because of Bible Truths, there is an important warning given at Matthew 15:14, "Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch." (AV). In fact, being with the wrong group can mean you are NOT having fellowship with the Son of God, Jesus (Yeshua) as testified to at 1 John 1:6, "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not [have] the truth." (AV). This danger is made abundantly clear at Luke 12:32 when Jesus (Yeshua) spoke of his true followers as a little flock and not a large one, "Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom." (AV). Simply stated, his true followers will be relatively few in number which should cause all sincere individuals to question whether mainstream religion with its vast membership is heading for the narrow gate!


    Your Friend in Christ Iris89
     
  7. Feathers in Hair

    Feathers in Hair World's Tallest Hobbit

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    I apologize for having made some comments in this thread that would have been better by PM. I have removed one and have editted the other. Again, I am sorry if I offended by doing this.
     
  8. jonny

    jonny Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for this information. It is interesting to read about the history of these teachings. I have never seen a scripture that has convinced me that the trinity doctrine was biblical.
     
  9. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    It took me awhile to get my head around the idea of the trinity. I am happy with it though.:)
     
  10. iris89

    iris89 Active Member

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    Hi jonny & michel

    I am glad that you both found it interesting. To let you both know, I am an independent Bible researcher that tells it like it is, i.e., only the truth. Why? I feel all untruths must be exposed and all should get with Titus 2:1, "But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine: " (Authorized King James Bible; AV). Too many are not believing sound doctrine and I have taken it as my task in serving my leader and savior, Jesus (Yeshua) Christ to assist all in knowing the truth and complying with John 17:19, "And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth." (AV). One can not really sanctify himself/herself through the truth if they do not know it, and it is my job as an Ordained Minister of the Gospel of Christ to assist all that want to know it, to know it.

    For more on the subject of the Trinity, go to:

    http://www.network54.com/Forum/388928

    Also, please be so kind as to let me know how you benefit from what you learn there, I am thanking you in advance.

    Your Friend in Christ Iris89
     
  11. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Actually Iris, I read about the trinity from this site:-http://www.catholicmatch.com/pl/pages/community/articles/details.html?ra=1;id=532

    ISSUE: What is the Holy Trinity?

    RESPONSE: The Holy Trinity is the union of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as One God. As a fundamental truth of the Christian faith, no one embraces Christianity without believing in the Holy Trinity.

    DISCUSSION: This central truth of our Christian faith is a mystery. Though Sacred Scripture contains many passages about the Trinity, nowhere in Sacred Scripture can we find a concise and thorough explanation of this mystery.[1] Though we cannot understand fully the mystery of the Holy Trinity, we can explain, in a limited way, the characteristics of God as Trinity.

    He Is Known by His Works

    One way we come to an understanding of God is in terms of His work in creation as made known to us through divine revelation.

    According to God’s revelation of Himself, the First Person of the Trinity, God the Father, created all things visible and invisible through His Word, the Son (Jn. 1:3). The Second Person of the Trinity, God the Son, became man in the person of Jesus Christ (Jn. 1:14; Col. 2:9). He died and rose to redeem mankind from sin and reconcile us to the Father (2 Cor. 14-21; Eph. 2:14-22; Col. 2:11-15). The third Person of the Trinity, God the Holy Spirit, is sent by the Father and the Son to form the Church (cf. Acts 2). Through the Church, He offers us the graces of salvation and sanctification. Thus, we sometimes speak of the Father as Creator, the Son as Redeemer, and the Holy Spirit as Sanctifier. The Father is revealed by His incarnate Son, Jesus, His perfect image. The Son reveals Himself by taking on our human nature. The Holy Spirit witnesses to the works of the Father and the Son, revealing Them both to man (cf. Catechism, nos. 238-246).

    We thus speak of the Persons of the Trinity by how They relate to us as our Creator. We can also speak of Them by how They relate to each other.

    From all eternity the First Person is Father, Who as He eternally knows Himself eternally generates the Son. The fundamental identity of the Second Person of the Trinity is as the Son, eternal generated by the Father, and as Son eternally loving Him in return. This Person has revealed Himself to man in the person of Jesus, Who is both God and man. Finally, the fundamental identity of the Third Person of the Trinity consists in His eternally being the Spirit of Love between the Father and the Son, a Love so real He is Himself a Person.

    St. Bonaventure explains the relationship of the Three Divine Persons in terms of God’s absolute goodness. He states that to be the highest good, one must give himself (diffuse) in absolute fullness. This cannot occur unless the self-giving “is actual and intrinsic, substantial and hypostatic, natural and voluntary, free and necessary, lacking nothing and perfect.” [2] He continues:

    Therefore, unless there were eternally in the highest good a production which is actual and consubstantial, and a hypostasis as noble as the producer, as in the case in a producing by way of generation and spiration, so that it is from an eternal principle eternally coproducing so that there would be a beloved a cobeloved, the one generated and the other spirated, and this is the Father and Son and Holy Spirit—unless these were present, it would by no means be the highest good because it would not diffuse itself in the highest degree.[3]

    In these relations between the Persons of the Trinity, we can begin to glimpse the meaning of the words “God is love” (1 Jn. 4: 8). The human family mirrors this love of God when the love between husband and wife becomes so real it is a third person, a child.

    Three Persons or Three Gods?

    St. Patrick used the analogy of a shamrock to explain the Holy Trinity when converting the Celtic peoples. Just as in a shamrock there are three leaflets but one leaf, so in the Trinity there are Three Divine Persons but one God. When we ask the question, “What is God?” we are attempting to define His nature, which is God. When we ask “Who is God?” we are attempting to know the person and could get one of three answers: Father, Son or Holy Spirit. God is not God apart from the Three Divine Persons Who make up the Godhead, yet each of the divine persons completely possess the nature of God. They do not share the attributes of God in the sense of “taking turns”: one using perfect love, another using perfect mercy, etc. Nor are Father, Son, and Holy Spirit simply ways in which God shows Himself. All three Persons of the Trinity are distinct, eternal, and fully God.

    How, then, does this not add up to three gods? The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not three separate gods because “the only real distinction between them lies solely in the relationships which relate them to one another” (Catechism, no. 155). “ ‘While they are called three persons in view of their relations, we believe in one nature or substance.’ ‘Indeed everything (in them) is one where there is no opposition of relationship’” (Catechism, no. 255, citing Councils of Toledo XI [675] and Florence [1442]). Thus in God there is one divine substance (essence, nature), equally possessed by three distinct, divine Persons, whose distinction as Persons lies in the relationship of each to the others.

    We often have difficulty with the idea of the Trinity because, as rational thinkers, we like to see everything as an equation. Three persons cannot equal one God. The equation does not add up, but God is not an equation and the Three Persons do equal one God. We struggle with this truth because the concept of three persons in one nature is quite beyond our experience. As St. Augustine pointed out, trying to contain this infinite mystery within our finite minds is like trying to pour the ocean into a seashell. We could not have arrived at this truth by human reason alone; it had to be revealed to us supernaturally by God.

    In the Fullness of Time

    Because the Trinity is such a deep mystery, God did not reveal this inner secret of His nature to man until man was ready to receive it. God is eternal, and all truth and history is eternally present to Him. We are limited by time, and only in time can we come to understand. In the Old Testament, when most peoples believed in many gods, the most important truth for the Hebrew people to understand was that there was only one God. After many centuries, “in the fullness of time, God sent His Son, born of a woman” (Gal. 4:4) and “sent the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying out ‘Abba, Father!’” (Gal. 4:6). Only after God’s people had the concept of one God firmly fixed in their minds were they ready to accept the truth of three persons in that one God, as Jesus Christ revealed it and the Holy Spirit taught it.

    Even the early Church had to clarify the full truth of God’s revelation regarding His Triune nature. In the Councils of Nicaea (325) and Constantinople (381), the Church affirmed Christ’s full divinity as the incarnate Son of God. The Council of Constantinople also affirmed the divinity of the Holy Spirit. Thus in the Nicaean-Constantinopolitan Creed we profess:

    We believe in one God, Father omnipotent, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, born of the Father before all ages, light of light, true God of true God, begotten not made, consubstantial with the Father by whom all things were made…. And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father,[4] who together with the Father and Son is worshipped and glorified.[5]
     
  12. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Pt2.Most misunderstandings of the nature of the Trinity either stress God’s unity at the expense of the distinction between Persons, or stress the distinction between Persons to the point that it seems there are three gods. Heresies that fall into the first extreme include Modalism, the idea that the three Persons of the Trinity are not in fact distinct Persons, but merely represent different “modes” or functions that the one true God performs. Modalists believed that God the Father really just “put on a robe of flesh” and became the person we know as Jesus Christ. Another misguided effort to defend that there is only one God is the belief that Jesus Christ is not the Second Person of the Trinity become incarnate—for the one God admits of no distinctions between persons—but rather a superior creature or a lesser divine/spiritual being. Arianism, a heresy condemned by the early church, was an example of this belief. Modern-day Jehovah’s Witnesses hold this belief as well. Heresies falling into the second extreme (believing that the Trinity is three gods—tritheism) are more rare, and would really be a form of that polytheism practiced by most primitive peoples. Mormons fall into this category, as they believe that Jesus and the Holy Spirit is fully divine but they do not recognize the unity of the Trinity as one God.

    Unity of Persons, Unity of Man

    Though God’s works reveal who He is (Catechism, no. 236), He cannot be reduced to His works or functions. This is why it is inappropriate to habitually refer to God as “Creator, Redeemer, and Sanctifier” rather than “Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.”

    This unity of the Divine Persons provides the essential foundations of the Christian faith. Not only do we understand God within this unity of Persons, but we can better understand man, and God’s will for man. As noted above, the sacrament of Marriage is a natural expression of the unity of God. However, Jesus made very clear that Marriage, as we know it here on earth, does not exist in heaven (Mt. 22:29-30). Marriage on earth points to a greater union that God desires with us, a union with Him like His union with Himself. As said by Jesus, “The glory which Thou hast given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and Thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that Thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as Thou hast loved me” (Jn. 17:22-23).

    In addition to the sacrament of Marriage, we share this unity with God imperfectly here on earth through the celebration and reception of the other sacraments, particularly the Holy Eucharist. In Baptism we receive the Holy Spirit and become conformed to Christ as adopted sons of the Father. In Confirmation the graces of Baptism are completed and we are more perfectly conformed to Christ in the power of the Holy Spirit. In the most august sacrament of the Eucharist, we receive the Son intimately into our bodies as food for our journey here on earth. In the sacraments of Penance and Anointing we receive God’s mercy and healing as He strengthens our bond of unity with Him. In the sacrament of Orders, a man is configured to the person of Christ and ministers in persona Christi to the faithful here on earth. Thus, in our life as man, through true worship of Him in the sacraments, and through our daily work offered as a prayer to Him, we are expressions of God’s unity with Himself and we contribute to our union with Him in heaven.

    Permission to reprint obtained from www.cuf.org.

    :)
     
  13. iris89

    iris89 Active Member

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    Hi Michael

    Yes, that is the eloquent telling of what they say the trinity is, but have you investigated whether what they are telling you is fact? Anyone can write an elowuent writing if he/she is a good writer as has been proven time and time again by writers of novels, but that in no way makes it fact.

    Now here is a simple telling from the Bible that shows everything they said is entirely wrong, i.e., error:

    1 - John 5:26, "For as the Father hath life in himself, even so gave he to the Son also to have life in himself:" (American Standard Version; ASV)



    John 6:57, "As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father; so he that eateth me, he also shall live because of me.



    By the words of Jesus, Jesus was not eternal; he was given to have life in himself and lives because of the Father. A eternal being cannot be given to have life in themselves, and they do not depend on others to live.



    2 - John 14:28, "Ye heard how I said to you, I go away, and I come unto you. If ye loved me, ye would have rejoiced, because I go unto the Father: for the Father is greater than I." (ASV).



    3 - 1 Corinthians 11:3, "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God." (ASV).



    4 - 1 Corinthians 15:22-28, " For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; then they that are Christ's, at his coming. 24 Then [cometh] the end, when he shall deliver up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be abolished is death. 27 For, He put all things in subjection under his feet. But when he saith, All things are put in subjection, it is evident that he is excepted who did subject all things unto him. 28 And when all things have been subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subjected to him that did subject all things unto him, that God may be all in all." (ASV)



    5 - John 5:29, "Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father doing: for what things soever he doeth, these the Son also doeth in like manner. " (ASV).



    6 - John 14:24, "He that loveth me not keepeth not my words: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's who sent me." (ASV)



    7 - John 17:8, "for the words which thou gavest me I have given unto them; and they received [them], and knew of a truth that I came forth from thee, and they believed that thou didst send me." (ASV).

    Now to learn more and go into detail on the subject, go to:

    http://www.network54.com/Forum/388928

    and be sure to check all with your own Bible in keeping with the principle shown at Acts 17:10-11, "The brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Beroe'a; and when they arrived they went into the Jewish synagogue. 11 Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessaloni'ca, for they received the word with all eagerness, examining the scriptures daily to see if these things were so." (Revised Standard Version; RSV). Please note, I use the simple straight forward style of my savior Jesus (Yeshua), and not a lot of flowery words. Why? Because I am out to assist all in knowing the truth per John 17:19, "And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth." (Authorized King James Bible; AV), and not to mislead and/or deceive anyone but to help all get sanctified through the truth.

    Your Friend in Christ Iris89
     
  14. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Iris, I think it a sad reflection that the only sources you seem to refer to, to back up your comments in debate are from other forums on which you have written articles.


    When it comes to the crunch, your views are your own - and whilst they may be fine for you - who am I to judge anyway ?- I hope you will understand that I prefer the views as given by mainstream Religion.
    Your comment"Now here is a simple telling from the Bible that shows everything they said is entirely wrong, i.e., error:" I find
    particularly 'disturbing', because you imply that the Catholic faith 'has it all wrong' - you might wish to think again, before making comments of that ilk.:)
     
  15. Feathers in Hair

    Feathers in Hair World's Tallest Hobbit

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    I would hope that you're not implying eloquence means one isn't trying to assist everyone in knowing the truth, as well.
     
  16. iris89

    iris89 Active Member

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    Hi Michael

    Look at the facts. I referred you to those articles as they are way too long to post on this board. The board I referred you to was one myself and other independent scholars set up just to assist others with regard to learning the facts, a loving provision in keeping with Matthew 22:37-40, "Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." (Authorized King James Bible; AV). My purpose is not to discredit other faiths, but to let everyone know the truth in keeping with John 17:17, "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth." (Authorized King James bible; AV). Remember you, not I, brought up a Catholic writing, and all I did was tell you the facts with respect it. Now you have the right to either accept and/or reject Biblical truth. Did you meditate on the set of 7 simple Bible facts I posted?

    Your Friend in Christ Iris89
     
  17. jonny

    jonny Well-Known Member

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    I don't think that the scriptures are clear either way on the issue of the Trinity. My belief that Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost comes from my belief in latter-day prophets who have given testimony to the nature of God. I can see how someone who was reading the bible could interpret the scriptures in other ways.
     
  18. jonny

    jonny Well-Known Member

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    I just wanted to clarify a few points - we do believe that the Godhead is united in PURPOSE, but we do not believe that they are united in being.

    According to this I'm a heresy and primitive - yipee!!! :jiggy:
     
  19. Feathers in Hair

    Feathers in Hair World's Tallest Hobbit

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    Do you mean the original article, or Michel's comment?
     
  20. iris89

    iris89 Active Member

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    Hi FeathersinHair

    Your comment,

    is a wrong assumption. If I were implying that, I would NOT be paying heed to what is written at Acts 18:24-28, " And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus. 25 This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John. 26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly. 27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace: 28 For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ' (Authorized King James Bible; AV). I was making the point that eloquent writings can be used more easily to mislead than simple writings a point made years ago on BBC by Sir Winston Churchil in his speach countering Nazi propoganda. I, for my part, try and use the KISS principle, keep it simple simple. Why? I want all to know/realize I am trying to mislead no one, but trying to assist all to know the truth which reminds me of what Jesus (Yeshua) said at John 8:45, "And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not." (AV).

    Whereas, the disciple Apollos used eloquent language our savior used simple, everyday language and I do likewise, but this does in NO WAY condemn the correct use of eloquent language in assisting others in knowing the truth. The point that the Bible is God's (YHWH's) word is brought out at John 17:17, "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth." (AV). Remember,
    the Bible is NOT the product of one committee or strongman. It has over 40 individual writers who wrote under divine inspiration/guidance putting the thoughts of God (YHWH) into the words of men much as transcribing secretaries today taking transcription and then later typing it out. In other words one real author, God (YHWH), and many scribes each of whom wrote in his own style over a period of approximately 1,600 years. All of what people call or consider inconsistencies are really not such, but most often just a problem of translation and/or understanding, i.e., lack of understanding of what the original writer writing in his own language and culture meant/said in his original writing. What is remarkable, is the writers over such a period of time all wrote in harmony when even most posters on threads on this forum can not even stay on track or subject over a period of a few days and/or weeks at most with the original subject of the thread. This fact of harmony over a period so great as to almost stagger the imagination shows that it had one guiding force or author who divinely inspired its writers as humans of their own volition can not keep on track over short periods of time.



    To wit, the Bible is the ONLY book God (YHWH) ever inspired men to write as his scribes. In other words, God is its author and men only put his thoughts given to them by divine inspiration into their own words, the words of men.

    Your Friend in Christ Iris89
     
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