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Discourse on Creation and Evolution

Discussion in 'Interfaith Discussion' started by iris89, Dec 27, 2004.

  1. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Get over yourself. As for the rest ...

    Poor II Timothy. Rarely has so little been called upon to do so much. Dare to question even the poorest of Biblical pericopes, and the inerrantist raises her eyes to the heavens and intones that magical mantra from 2 Timothy, i.e.:

    • 3.14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them,
    • 3.15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
    • 3.16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
    • 3.17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
    There it is, right there in black and white for all to see: All Scripture is inspired! How wonderfully clear, not to mention convenient. Unfortunately ...

    Circulus in Demonstrando

    Defending scripture with scripture assumes the premise in question. This is clearly a circular argument and therefore, as arguments go, entirely worthless.

    What Scripture is Implied?

    According to tradition, 2 Timothy was written by Paul. This would imply that it was written in the mid 60s. The text, however, refers to the "Holy Scriptures" as something known "from childhood", i.e., decades earlier. Only the most conservative Christian apologist would suggest that this referred to any New Testament document.

    How Do You Spell Pseudepigraphy?

    As noted in the New American Bible: 1 Timothy - Introduction ...
    "From the late second century to the nineteenth, Pauline authorship of the three Pastoral Epistles went unchallenged. Since then, the attribution of these letters to Paul has been questioned. Most scholars are convinced that Paul could not have been responsible for the vocabulary and style, the concept of church organization, or the theological expressions found in these letters."​
    While "most scholars" is certainly not the same as "all scholars", it is worth keeping in mind a a large number of highly trained Biblical Scholars do not believe that 2 Timothy is Pauline.

    So, all your pathetic posturing is nothing more than circular reasoning, using a quote that had nothing to do with New Testament scripture, taken from a letter whose author is, according to "most scholars", entirely unknown. The verse that is called upon to do so much turns out to be worth so little, and the arrogance that relies on it turns out to be worth even less.
     
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  2. iris89

    iris89 Active Member

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    Hi Everyone

    As I said before,





    There will always be those who wish to criticize the Bible on one concept or another such as one saying,



    Many so called scholars continue to put forth contrarian opinions. Why? This is a quick, though intellectually dishonest way, of getting notoriety. But this does NOT change reality.



    Now let’s see what the renown Smith’s Bible Dictionary says on 1 and 2 Timothy and who was the faithful person under divine inspiration who wrote them.

    .

    Also, let’s consider another renown reference work on this subject,



    And another,



    As shown by the above, John Wesley did NOT question Paul as the author of 1 Timothy.



    But, enough, we have drifted from what this thread is all about, which is God (YHWH) as the Creator and the Wonderful Things He Has Provided us. Let’s start discussing up-building things in this regard.



    Your Friend in Christ Iris89
     
  3. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Renown, no less.

    So there!
     
  4. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    Oy vey iris.... I was not going to comment on this until you brought the Canons of the Catholic Church into this...... and I must say that it pains me to bring this to your attention..... religious zealots and Bible fundamentalists like yourself are the BEST evangelization tools the Catholic Church has..... but, I feel I should comment anyway.
    Did you actually read any of these "renown history books"??????

    You have made yourself look foolish by quoting something that reveals the exact OPPOSTITE of what your position is. My goodness, you could not have read this..... let me share a little bit in the hope you'll read it now:

    9. Hence there exists a close connection and communication between sacred tradition and sacred Scripture. For both of them, flowing from the same divine wellspring, in a certain way merge into a unity and tend toward the same end. For sacred Scripture is the Word of God inasmuch as it is consigned to writing under the inspiration of the divine Spirit, while sacred tradition takes the Word of God entrusted by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit to the Apostles, and hands it on to their successors in its full purity, so that led by the light of the Spirit of truth, they may in proclaiming it preserve this Word of God faithfully, explain it, and make it more widely known. Consequently it is not from sacred Scripture alone that the Church draws her certainty about everything which has been revealed. Therefore both sacred tradition and sacred Scripture are to be accepted and venerated with the same sense of loyalty and reverence [6].


    Did you mean to quote a document that invalidates everything you have ever posted?:biglaugh:

    Thanks for being here iris..... keep up the good work.
     
  5. Mr Spinkles

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    Say it ain't so, Scott! I, for one, think the Church should put more stock in good, science appreciatin'' folk such as yourself.
     
  6. Master Vigil

    Master Vigil Well-Known Member

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    "some are throwing out opinions and not going to my links and reading the facts."

    HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!! Please don't tell me you are thinking centuries old opinions are facts? Please??!!!?? None of your posts have fact, you are trying to prove the bible by using the bible. YOU CAN"T DO THAT!!!!! Circular arguments are not valid!!!!! I know you say that the bible was written by 40 some authors who were divinely inspired by god. That is fine, but there is no PROOF!!!! So stop sticking it in there as FACT!!!!
     
  7. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    Hehe.... thanks my friend..... but the truth is that these fundamentalists (as this thread has shown) can do more to bring those who already have faith in Christ but not His Church into full communion with the Catholic Church than everything else combined.
     
  8. iris89

    iris89 Active Member

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    Hi SOGFPP



    Your statement,



    Clearly overlooks the main part of what I was referring to which were the ancient reference works given under that subject in the Catholic Encyclopedia. Unfortunately within these scholarly Catholic works there are tares such as the one you highlighted above. This reminds me of a similar situation given in parable by Jsus (Yeshua) at Matthew 13:24-30, "Another parable set he before them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man that sowed good seed in his field: 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares also among the wheat, and went away. 26 But when the blade sprang up and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27 And the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst thou not sow good seed in thy field? whence then hath it tares? 28 And he said unto them, An enemy hath done this. And the servants say unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29 But he saith, Nay; lest haply while ye gather up the tares, ye root up the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather up first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them; but gather the wheat into my barn." (American Standard Version; ASV). That is a major problem with Catholic research articles, they sneak in false theology interspersed in with good research, NOT INTELLECTUALLY HONEST.



    Also, another poster said,



    Clearly this poster is not cognizant of the fact that standards are promulgated not proven. In other words they are the final authority and the use of them is NOT circular reasoning. In fact I have written an entire research article on this fact, go to:



    STANDARDS ARE PROMULGATED NOT PROVEN BUT USED:

    http://forum.bismikaallahuma.org:/viewtopic.php?t=5076



    Your Friend in Christ Iris89

     
  9. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Quote[To sum it all up (E-equals-MxC2) shows energy and matter can not be created or destroyed by any mechanism known to man and yet one or the other or both had to come in existence at sometime or nothing we now know including mankind itself would exist. Therefore, even if a Bible that tells who created all did not exist, the universe and all in it would clearly show the existence of a Creator.]
    Hi Iris

    That last paragraph could have been written by me, If I had got there first! - it epitomises the methodology of my thinking. Of course, you can go further with 'nothing can be created nor destroyed' in Religions - such as 'what ye sow ye shall reap'
    It is too, one of the pointers (for me) as to the validity in the belief in reincarnation.
    One last point ; I think I saw God made trees and plants for our enjoyment; do you KNOW that trees and plants are not sentient beings of a type?
     
  10. iris89

    iris89 Active Member

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    Hi michel

    I hope that you went on to read my other post on the wonderful things God (YHWH) has created for mankind. As you can clearly see, many posters have drifted far afield.

    My point being, of course, that God (YHWH) brought all into existance and as the bible says at Psalms 90:2, "Before the mountains were brought forth, Or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, Even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God." (American Standard Version; ASV), clearly showing he always existed.

    Your Friend in Christ Iris89
     
  11. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    What a stunningly stupid statement. To promulgate is to formally declare/proclaim. To declare that the Bible is the standard of truth and, therefore, all Biblical statements are true is clearly a case of circular reasoning.
     
  12. iris89

    iris89 Active Member

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    Hi Everyone

    A standard by virtue of what it is is not circular reasoning. A standard is something for judging all else from.

    Your Friend in Christ Iris89
     
  13. Valjean

    Valjean Veteran Member
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    Your reasoning continues to be circular, iris. You defend the Bible as a proper reference by reference to the Bible itself.
     
  14. anders

    anders Well-Known Member

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    Deut, Seyorni and SOGFPP to name a few, have done an admirable job to show some of the errors in iris' reasoning. I'll just challenge you once more, iris, with the question I've asked you several times: what proof is there that the Bible was written by 40 persons? Please tell us who they were, and when and where they lived. You will be world famous if you can tell us these things.
     
  15. iris89

    iris89 Active Member

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    Hi Seyorni



    My reasoning is in no way circular. It is quite obvious that you fail to comprehend what a standard is so let's check this out.



    The One Look Dictionary defines a standard the way I am using it as,





    The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000. defines it as:





    Cambridge Advanced Learners Dictionary defines it as:





    Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary defines it as:





    Webster's 1828 dictionary defines it as:






    In other words, a standard by virtue of its nature can never be circular reasoning as it is “basis for comparison; a reference point against which other things can be evaluated” as shown above. And in the case of the Bible, it is a unique standard set by the highest sovereign power in the universe. God (YHWH) as a rule or measure by which all things are to be judged. Since he created all things, it is his absolute right to set the standard as he is responsible for the existence of all things in the universe.



    Your Friend in Christ Iris89
     
  16. iris89

    iris89 Active Member

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    Hi Anders



    FIRST, No one has shown any errors in my reasoning as I only write well researched research reports and provide all necessary evidence, facts, and backup.



    SECOND, You can go to any large city library and go to almost any encyclopedia and learn who wrote the Bible, also, there are Bible dictionaries that show who wrote what. Now go do the research and stop bothering me with foolishness.



    Your Friend in Christ Iris89
     
  17. linwood

    linwood Well-Known Member

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    I have a World Book through 1991
    I have an American Heritage through 1979
    Most of a set of Brittanicas
    Numerous online encyclopedias.

    Not one tells me who wrote the Bible.

    Could you please support any of your assertions?
     
  18. iris89

    iris89 Active Member

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    Hi Linwood

    You appear to have the tools; now you need to learn how to use them. You can not simply look for writers of the Bible as that is too general of a subject. You have to do research by Bible book and who wrote it such as the book of Isaiah. You must learn to be a researcher and figure out under what topic the information you are seeking is located.

    Your friend in Christ Iris89
     
  19. linwood

    linwood Well-Known Member

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    iris,


    Tell me...who wrote the Tanach?

    Just tell me if you have an idea of your own answer the question.

    Who wrote the Tanach?

    Simple enough hmm?
     
  20. iris89

    iris89 Active Member

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    Hi Linwood

    I care not who wrote the Tanach which is nothing but a takeoff and/or commentary on the Torah. If you wish to know, look it up in the reference books that you have.

    Now let's get back to the subject of the thread and stop playing logomachy and who wrote what games. The answers to all of this should be in your reference books so make use of them. Do NOT expect myself or others to go do research on every none important item for you as that is just being lazy.

    Your Friend in Christ Iris89
     
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