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Disbelievers in Christianity Answer Please!

If you are faced with the miracle described below

  • I will certainly believe without any condition

    Votes: 9 24.3%
  • I will believe only if, He says Muhammad was a false Prophet, otherwise No!

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I will believe, if He says, Muhammad is a true prophet, otherwise No!

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • No, i will not believe, because.......(please explain)

    Votes: 28 75.7%

  • Total voters
    37

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Assuming it happens.
It won't though.

But you could off course ask such what-if questions about anything. You can always frame the hypothetical in such a way that the respondend would have no choice but to accept that what happened actually happened.

But what use does such a hypothetical framing actually have?

"If The Force of star wars was demonstrated to be real, would you believe it is real?"

Well... yeah. So what?
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Suppose, He comes down from Sky, and declairs He is Christ!

To prove it, He will take you, to some of your loved ones grave, and resurrects them. Those are grandparents or some close relatives and friends, and you know they had passed away and were in that graves.

Now, please answer the Poll, based on this event. Assume it happend
The choices are too simplistic.

I will accept that it's happening. And I will be amazed, of course. But I would have no possible way of knowing that these apparitions are as they appear, and claim. So I'd simply reserve judgment.
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
It won't though.

But you could off course ask such what-if questions about anything. You can always frame the hypothetical in such a way that the respondend would have no choice but to accept that what happened actually happened.

But what use does such a hypothetical framing actually have?

"If The Force of star wars was demonstrated to be real, would you believe it is real?"

Well... yeah. So what?
There are many religious people, who think, the Prophets had performed Miracles, and yet people did not believe after seeing it.

That is why I am asking this question.
If you actually see that Jesus resurrected Dead, would you still disbelieve?

My take is, no such miracles were ever performed. And if they were performed, there was no one who would have disbelieved.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
Okay, you're a person who doesn't believe that there's an orange on the table when there's just an orange on the table. Got it.
Why would belief be necessary when the orange is there to see? All belief is subject to error. If you see an orange on a table are you really unsure if the orange is there or not? When you drive and see a red light, do you believe it's red or do you know it's red and stop? If you only believe it's red maybe you are mistaken and it's really green. Even if you are color blind the position of the lights will confirm what the color is, unless you only believe that light is lit and not another one. Are you really this confused about what you see when you drive?

Belief is a judgment we make about things and ideas we can't verifiy. We didn't see OJ kill his ex-wife and Ron Goldman, but we can look at the evidence and come to a conclusion he did it. Is there a chance he didn't? Yes, a very slight and unlikely chance, and we weren't there to see him do it. But we can make a judgment based on the evidence. If we saw OJ do it, it wouldn't be belief, it would be a fact we witnessed.

Does this clarify that we don't have to believe what we see and sense?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
My take is, no such miracles were ever performed. And if they were performed, there was no one who would have disbelieved.
Maybe no one who witnessed the miracle would disbelieve, but the others have to believe those people actually witnessed it.
Why should the others believe in the resurrection just because it was written in a book?
People are so gullible, but I also think they believe in the resurrection because they want to believe it, since they need to believe it for some reason.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Setting aside that I would be seething in fury at this person's sacrilege against my ancestors...

No.


I'm not Christian. I'd accept that this sacrilegious and disrespectful fool wants me to call them Christ and call them what they want to be called, but that title holds no meaning for me. I'm not Christian.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
There are many religious people, who think, the Prophets had performed Miracles, and yet people did not believe after seeing it.

That is why I am asking this question.
If you actually see that Jesus resurrected Dead, would you still disbelieve?
As I have noted resurrecting dead people is unnatural and impossible, so if it happens there is some unnatural power that can make it happen. That would be excellent evidence that there's something going on.

Of course, it's impossible. You made up the scenario, and such scenarios are meant to be a trap for non-believers. I think you underestimate the improbable nature of your scenario. 'I admit it would sway my judgment. But resurrection isn't a real thing. It's part of many religious lore through history, and why not, most of us fear death. And what a great metaphor for a change in attitudes about life. That is what Christiany's resurrection is about, redemption and a change of mind and attitudes. Unfortunately many Christians are extremists and quite morally vile.
My take is, no such miracles were ever performed. And if they were performed, there was no one who would have disbelieved.
You have your own set of miracles, so not exactly a huge revelation here. This is what happens when religions compete for human minds. Religion is buisness, not revelation.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I'm curious why such an entity wouldn't go to the effort of convincing everyone. Given the claims about such entities it should be quite easy. And yet we have a plethora of competing claimed entities and those not convinced of any of it.
Why would God need everyone to be convinced?
Why would God need anyone to be convinced?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
As I have noted resurrecting dead people is unnatural and impossible, so if it happens there is some unnatural power that can make it happen. That would be excellent evidence that there's something going on.
That is an interesting perspective. People assume that power is God, but it could just as well be an evil force.
I don't believe in Satan, but who is to say that Satan did not raise Jesus from the dead....
Oh I know, that isn't what the Bible stories say. :rolleyes:
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Why would God need everyone to be convinced?
Why would God need anyone to be convinced?
Assuming a god exists and that the answer to these questions is "he wouldn't", then this god also wouldn't bother with establishing any kind of religion, sending any kind of "prophets" or "messengers" or whatever you wish to call them.

Suppose I'm a rich philantropists who cares not for any recognition, then why would I bother advertising my donations?
I'ld just keep them anonymous and go about my life. And nobody would ever know. And I'ld be fine with that.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
That is an interesting perspective. People assume that power is God, but it could just as well be an evil force.
Since God and/or gods aren't known to exist, nor evil forces, whatever is imagined and believed tells us more about the human mind than what is going on extrenal to the mind. Note that no resurrection happens. So there is no need to assume a God or evil forces. These are just religious ideas that get tossed around in hypotheticals. That some folks believe in God or gods or evil is due to religious and social influence, not evidence.

So I can play along with hypotheticals and state that it is ONLY hypothetical, not anything that is credible or believable. We might as well say that Mickey Mouse has the power of resurrection. You just have to track down Mickey and get him to bring your dead cat back to life.

This whole thread is about an improbable scenario. Heck, God/Jesus doesn't even bother to save children from fatal cancers, so why care about those who already died?
I don't believe in Satan, but who is to say that Satan did not raise Jesus from the dead....
Hey, any human with an imagination. And any human who is willing to believe irrational ideas could believe it. And they do.
Oh I know, that isn't what the Bible stories say. :rolleyes:
Not that what the Bible says is true, right?
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
As I have noted resurrecting dead people is unnatural and impossible, so if it happens there is some unnatural power that can make it happen. That would be excellent evidence that there's something going on.

Of course, it's impossible. You made up the scenario, and such scenarios are meant to be a trap for non-believers. I think you underestimate the improbable nature of your scenario. 'I admit it would sway my judgment. But resurrection isn't a real thing. It's part of many religious lore through history, and why not, most of us fear death. And what a great metaphor for a change in attitudes about life. That is what Christiany's resurrection is about, redemption and a change of mind and attitudes. Unfortunately many Christians are extremists and quite morally vile.

You have your own set of miracles, so not exactly a huge revelation here. This is what happens when religions compete for human minds. Religion is buisness, not revelation.
What set of miracles do I have?
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
There are many religious people, who think, the Prophets had performed Miracles, and yet people did not believe after seeing it.

Then those "miracles" would have had to be ambiguous to begin with.

I don't think anyone would deny clear, obvious and unambiguous facts that unfold before their eyes.
I'm sure you could find some crazy person left or right who would do so, but the vast majority of humans wouldn't.


Consider a magician. David Copperfield style, not Harry Potter style.
Eventhough they do amazing things, you always know there is something "iffy" going on (well... if you aren't a gullible fool in any case...). Their performance always have to have some "mysterious" component.

"this is an ordinary hat", but for "some reason" you can't inspect it up close.
David Copperfield once did a trick where he supposedly went through a wall. But you couldn't actually see him do it... the actual event played out behind a curtain.

When a magician magicks a bunny out of a hat, you can't come up to him with your own hat and say "do it again but with this hat instead. and take of your shirt also".
Right?

So these people give you reasons to doubt. You might not understand the trick, but you know it's a trick regardless.

Now if it's actual Harry Potter magic, there would be no need for such "mysterious" components. They wouldn't need to go out of their way to say things like "this is an ordinary hat". You would be able to test them. It would be rather trivial to convince you of ACTUAL magic imo. Just like it is rather trivial to expose a David Copperfield as a trickster by simply changing up some parameters and then seeing his trick no longer works.



SO.... if there is some dude who performs "miracles" in front of people and those people then don't believe him.... that tells me it's a David Copperfield scenario instead of a Harry Potter situation.

That is why I am asking this question.
If you actually see that Jesus resurrected Dead, would you still disbelieve?

I refer you to my explanation above. If it's clear and unambiguous, I would have no problem to believe.
If some guy would resurect my grand father, who's been dead for over 20 years, I'ld be amazed.
If this guy would further be able to resurrect anyone I ask him to resurrect (say a Jimi Hendrix, an Elvis, a Bruce Lee, Napoleon, ...) then we clearly are out of the "trick" and "deception" scenario.

But we all know that such what-if is simply not going to happen.


So to answer your question: yes, if we assume the hypothetical is real, then the hypothetical is real. Big Whoop.

My take is, no such miracles were ever performed. And if they were performed, there was no one who would have disbelieved.

Well, it depends... see above. I agree that clear, obvious and unambiguous facts would not be disbelieved by the majority.
If the claimed events where disbelieved by the majority, then I can only assume that there were iffy things going on.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Assuming a god exists and that the answer to these questions is "he wouldn't", then this god also wouldn't bother with establishing any kind of religion, sending any kind of "prophets" or "messengers" or whatever you wish to call them.
I said:
Why would God need everyone to be convinced?
Why would God need anyone to be convinced?

I did not say:
Why would God want everyone to be convinced?
Why would God want anyone to be convinced?

A want is not a need. I think God wants people to be convinced, but God does not need anyone to be convinced, since God is transcendent, independent of all His creatures.

I don't know if God wants everyone to be convinced, but it makes sense that God at least wants some people to be convinced.
Otherwise God would not send Messengers to establish religions.
 

MikeF

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Free will. Not everyone wants to be convinced.

I would suggest this is a cop-out and an easy means to deflect a hard truth. Given the claimed abilities of these entities, it is illogical to assert that such an entity would be incapable of convincing even the most recalcitrant denier. The fact that a sufficient and simple effort on the part of the claimed entity to present itself in a verifiable way does not occur speaks loudly against the veracity of such an entity.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
What set of miracles do I have?
If you are still a Baha'i then it's the miracle of a mortal communicating with God. Isn't that what your religion claims?

It's been claimed that humans can't communicate with God, but your messengers can, and this is the basis for why Baha'i texts are credible and authoritative. Of course this smacks in the face of the Abrahamic religions that insist anyone can access God in some way and use this conection for guidance. This can be people in euphoria at a revival, or suicide bombers doing God's will by killing innocent infidels.

As it is we have zero in the way any evidence that God or gods exist, and anyone who believes that there is such magic occurring does so without rational thinking.
 
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