Disagreements regarding Chosen Ones of God

[InvestigateTruth]

Thanks. I appreciate your input.
That's nice to know, that Bahais
However, I have spoken to Muslims personally, and they told me that the Bible has been corrupted through the constant copying and recopying through the years.
They believe the original was as the Quran says, "Handed down by Allah". They say that the Quran is more pure, because, they say, it was memorized, and passed orally.
...but... don't we also make mistakes in calling things to mind, and relaying it by speech?

I think though it may be a matter of opinion, where some feel that way while others feel differently, and in some cases it may be how we convey our thoughts - sort of like our thoughts coming out before consciously expressing them perhaps.
For example, I really thought you and some of your brothers in faith were suggesting that the Bible was corrupt, but perhaps you were referring to the translations, or perhaps the interpreting of the word meanings as they were translated.

While I could understand that, I would agree that does not corrupt the message. We live with mistakes everyday, and we manage.
The word of God is alive - Hebrews 4:12

What we have to be concerned about are those who misinterpret various parts of it, and teach these, but that is not the Bible's message.


Several verses?
Would you mind giving me those verses for my education, please - just the verses, thanks.

Aren't you equating those Christians that don't agree, with those who may not believe for personal reasons?
I am one of those Christians that don't agree, but does that mean I don't agree for personal reasons, or could I not disagree for scriptural reasons?
For example, I supplied a scriptural reason for not agreeing.
What do you say to that?

The two witnesses in Revelation can be interpreted in countless ways, by countless people. What evidence shows that it applies to Bahaullah?
Of course, you know that it would be impossible for anyone to prove that prophecy would apply to any so-called prophet. So how could anyone be expected to believe?
That's different to Jesus, where hundreds of prophecies were fulfilled by him... that was very clear. No guesswork was required.

Didn't Jesus say, Elijah came, and are the scriptures not clear about that one? Could you post those scriptures you have in mind, please.
I really would like to see those.

1. It is true that most Muslims believe that the text of the Bible is corrupted, but the Quran does not say that, rather it confirms it, and states there has been corruption in interpretations. Which view would be the view of Islam? What Muslims believe or what Quran says?

2. Yes, Jesus said Elijah has come in spirit, but He also said Elijah shall come at the End Time. The first time Elijah returned was as the person of John. The second time He returns, could not that be as another Prophet, with a different name, but Spiritually same?

3. Yes, there are many verses. I prefer to give you a link to a Book which is written by Abdulbaha, who, in Bahai Scriptures is appointed by God for correct interpretations of the Bible, and correct any misinterpretations through divine revelations He is given. You can read as an example this chapter:

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 45-61

 

[nPeace]

1. It is true that most Muslims believe that the text of the Bible is corrupted, but the Quran does not say that, rather it confirms it, and states there has been corruption in interpretations. Which view would be the view of Islam? What Muslims believe or what Quran says?

Well, Islam is a religious system, made up of individuals called Muslims. So it's not the system that teaches, but the leaders, so their views can differ from one place to another - just like those of other religious systems.
One might talk to a Muslim in one location, and hear something, and move to another location, and hear something different from another Muslim.

I believe though that one should look at what the book says, which is what I do.

2. Yes, Jesus said Elijah has come in spirit, but He also said Elijah shall come at the End Time. The first time Elijah returned was as the person of John. The second time He returns, could not that be as another Prophet, with a different name, but Spiritually same?

3. Yes, there are many verses. I prefer to give you a link to a Book which is written by Abdulbaha, who, in Bahai Scriptures is appointed by God for correct interpretations of the Bible, and correct any misinterpretations through divine revelations He is given. You can read as an example this chapter:

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 45-61

Can you not give me a few scriptures?
I have been given references from Bahai, and 1. It was a lot to read, and 2. I did not understand it. It was confusing, I had to ask the person to explain, which they were nice enough to do.
I find though that when asking Bahais questions, they seem reluctant to answer the questions from the Bible, but they quickly refer to the Reference Site.
Is this because Bahais are not familiar with the Bible, as they are with the writings of their prophet?

A quick glance at the link tells me that I am only in for a long read which I probably will still have to end up asking for an explanation... again. Apparently there is only one book and chapter used from the Bible - Revelation 11.

If that's the only scripture then that only leaves one guessing, since it's symbolic.
I don't recall Revelation mentioning Elijah either, so how would that help?

I'll see if @adrian009 , or @Trailblazer might be able to help me with some of the scriptures.
It's so much better having a one to one conversation.

Thanks for the conversation.

 

[sayak83]

When we look at various major Religions, we find that, always there are disagreements if a Leader is truly chosen by God or not.
For example, Jews expect the Messiah, but they did not agree with Christian view, who believed Jesus was the true Messiah.
Likewise, Muslims believe Muhammad was a promised One by Jesus but Christians do not see it that way.
Same disagreements are seen with regards to the Bab and Bahaullah, as the promised Ones of other Religions.
Even, within Islam, there was a disagreement between Sunnis and Shias about Ali, being the divinely chosen successor of Muhammad.

Now, those who are on the believer side, very often quote from Holy Books as an evidence.
For example, Muslims can quote from the Bible those verses regarding Muhammad as the promised one... likewise Christians quote from Jewish Scriptures to show how Jesus is that same Messiah.
Shias also quote from Quran to prove that Ali is chose by God.


Question: why there is always disagreement about interpretations of the Books of God when it comes to those verses related to a promised person? Can we say God cannot get His message clear to prevent disagreements?

Because nobody is actually chosen by any God.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Can you not give me a few scriptures?

There is a stated time period given in both Daniel and Revelation and importantly we were told to consider the prophecy of Daniel in the New Testament;

Matthew 24:14 "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. 15So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’ described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand)"

With the above verse we can find and predict the first coming of Jesus the Christ using a date most agree refers to the above passage of 457BC.

The SDA church was founded on the date determined from the calculation of the above Prophecy of Daniel with the prophecy noted below;

Daniel 8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

What was not known by William Miller is that AD1844 is also AH1260 in the Islamic calendar, which puts a new understanding as to what the Old and New Testament may contain about the Message of Muhammad.

Here are 1260 references;

1. DANIEL 7:25
   He shall speak great words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and think to change times and laws -- and they shall be given into his hands until a time and times and the dividing of a time.
2. DANIEL 12:7
   It shall be for a time, times, and half a time that he can scatter the power of the holy people.
3. REVELATION 11:2
   The holy city they tread under foot forty and two months.
4. REVELATION 11:3
   And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophecy a thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.
5. REVELATION 12:6
   And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and sixty days.
6. REVELATION 12:14
   And the woman was given wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wildneress, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
7. REVELATION 13:5
   And there was given to the beast a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and power was given to him to continue fourty and two months.

These are the seven places in the Bible that tell of the same time..."1260 days" ..."42 months" ..."time, times, half a time"... All seven of these verses refer to the SAME amount of time. A "time" is a year. "Times" is 2 times, or 2 years. "Half a time" is a half a year. ...so, one time, two times, and half a time, equals 3 1/2 times: 3 1/2 years. ..which equals 42 months, or 1260 days.

They are a few interesting passages to consider.

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

Well, Islam is a religious system, made up of individuals called Muslims. So it's not the system that teaches, but the leaders, so their views can differ from one place to another - just like those of other religious systems.
One might talk to a Muslim in one location, and hear something, and move to another location, and hear something different from another Muslim.

I believe though that one should look at what the book says, which is what I do.


Can you not give me a few scriptures?
I have been given references from Bahai, and 1. It was a lot to read, and 2. I did not understand it. It was confusing, I had to ask the person to explain, which they were nice enough to do.
I find though that when asking Bahais questions, they seem reluctant to answer the questions from the Bible, but they quickly refer to the Reference Site.
Is this because Bahais are not familiar with the Bible, as they are with the writings of their prophet?

A quick glance at the link tells me that I am only in for a long read which I probably will still have to end up asking for an explanation... again. Apparently there is only one book and chapter used from the Bible - Revelation 11.

If that's the only scripture then that only leaves one guessing, since it's symbolic.
I don't recall Revelation mentioning Elijah either, so how would that help?

I'll see if @adrian009 , or @Trailblazer might be able to help me with some of the scriptures.
It's so much better having a one to one conversation.

Thanks for the conversation.

Hi,

Its always hard to pick up the thread of a conversation that others have been having and thinking about.

In regards Elijah, I don't think we'll have too much trouble agreeing that John the Baptist was the return of the spirit of Elijah whose advent was prophecised to herald the coming of the Messiah or Christ.

Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.
He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Matthew 11:11-15
Matthew 17:11-12
Isaiah 40:3

Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord
Malachi 4:5, Malachi 3:1

The prophet Elijah was taken up in a whirlwind
2 Kings 2:1-11

It was the spirit of Elijah, not Elijah physically
Luke 1:17

John the Baptist specifically denied being Elijah (meaning physically or reincarnated)
John 1:19-23

This all has important implications for the manner in which Christ returns...

Its important to realise that prophecies in the OT, may refer to the first coming, the second coming, or both. What are examples of prophetic writings that relate to BOTH Jesus coming AND His return?

Isaiah 40:3-5
The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:
And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.

These verses were clearly relevant to the coming of Christ and specifically John the Baptist (the return of Elijah).

As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth;
And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
Luke 3:4-6

But we also find reference to similar versea in the book of revelation in regards Christ's second coming.

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Revelation 1:7

In regards the clouds, Christ makes mention of these in the Olivet discourse.

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Matthew 24:30

But these very signs are those the Jews would have expected as they are mentioned in Daniel 7:13
I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

The signs in regards the heavenly bodies that Jesus spoke with his return in Matthew 24:29 are also part of the text in Isaiah 13:10, Isaiah 24:23 and Isaiah 34:4

These are all signs that accompanied Christ's advent and also the Returned Christ.

I hope that helps and am happy to answer any questions you have with reference to the bible.

 

[nPeace]

Thanks @Tony Bristow-Stagg and @adrian009.
I'll look at the posts tomorrow. Really appreciate it.

 

[Deeje]

Question: why there is always disagreement about interpretations of the Books of God when it comes to those verses related to a promised person? Can we say God cannot get His message clear to prevent disagreements?

I don't know if anyone has actually answered this important question....?

Don't we first of all have to ascertain why we have this situation to begin with...? Does God speak with a forked tongue through contradictory messengers in different faiths? Why would he? Does he want us to be confused? No, but the Bible indicates that someone else does.....a rival for the hearts and minds of us humans....someone who has aspirations to be a god himself.

Right from the beginning, the Bible tells us about a rebel spirit, masquerading as a serpent, who planted seeds of doubt in order to get the first humans off-side with God, and on onside with him. What is his stock in trade? Lies and deception. He is the quintessential con artist....with millennia to perfect his craft.

At 2 Corinthians 11:12-15 the apostle Paul said....."But what I am doing I will continue to do, in order to eliminate the pretext of those who are wanting a basis for being found equal to us in the things about which they boast. 13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps disguising himself as an angel of light. 15 It is therefore nothing extraordinary if his ministers also keep disguising themselves as ministers of righteousness. But their end will be according to their works."

The claims made by men are a dime a dozen and whether we believe them or not has largely to do with what we find appealing about them and their message. Satan does not care what "leader" you follow...as long as it isn't the right one. He will convince many that he doesn't even exist.....so how do you argue with that mindset? How do you fight an invisible enemy? Its a perfect set-up....or so he thinks.

What is satan's MO? I heard it illustrated this way......"how do you hide a 40ft tree out in the middle of a cleared field?"

The answer is...you can't. But if you had sufficient time up your sleeve, you could plant a virtual forest of similar looking trees all around the original, and in time, as they all attained the right size, it would become increasingly difficult to find the original tree. The original is not the same genus as all the rest, but they look as good to an untrained eye.

This is exactly what the devil has done. He has had all the time in the world to plant thousands of 'trees'...some similar and some completely different....they are all fakes but the original tree is still there....but now it becomes a real challenge to find it. It has distinct identifying features that were recorded in a book.....only those who study the book will know what to look for....but they must be guided in their interpretation. Since everyone claims to have this guidance....we have a dilemma.

Like counterfeit currency, with counterfeit religion, you don't have to recognize every counterfeit by examining them individually....all you have to do is become familiar with the features of the original and then the counterfeits stick out like sore thumbs.

Will God guide everyone to the real tree? NO! He is not going to make that choice for us....he leaves that up to us. He has provided the description of that one unique 'tree' and allows us to make our own search. God is looking for a certain type of person to become a citizen of his Kingdom. If we are distracted by certain features of the counterfeits that we find appealing, then that tells God something about our qualifications for life in the new world to come. (2 Peter 3:13)

Jesus promised...."No man can come to me unless the Father, who sent me, draws him..." (John 6:44) What does this mean?

He also said at John 14:6..."I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

That being said, there was only one Jesus Christ who came in the flesh.....his death and resurrection did not pave the way for another appearance in the flesh, only to die again. His first appearance as a mortal human was part of the rescue mission that God arranged to redeem those who were sentenced to a life of sin and death because of what Adam had done. (Romans 5:12) It would make no sense for Christ to return as a mere mortal again. Jesus was sinless and so not subject to sin inherited from Adam. That meant that he would never have died of natural causes....he would never have aged or got sick or committed any wrong. Bahaullah died of natural causes, so I do not believe that he could possibly be the returned Christ.

The return of Christ was to be a time of great trouble for the earth as the "last days" of the present system of things began. All the features of the "sign" Jesus gave, had to be fulfilled in this time period. (Matthew 24:3-14) At the conclusion, when all those features have been experienced, including a global preaching work, a spectacular visual display will inform all mankind that it is the time for judgment. Then Matthew 24:29-31 will be take place....."Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity."

I cannot accept that various men of faith from different religious systems have anything to do with the true God....but everything to do with the work of the 'pretender'.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

At 2 Corinthians 11:12-15 the apostle Paul said....."But what I am doing I will continue to do, in order to eliminate the pretext of those who are wanting a basis for being found equal to us in the things about which they boast. 13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps disguising himself as an angel of light. 15 It is therefore nothing extraordinary if his ministers also keep disguising themselves as ministers of righteousness. But their end will be according to their works."

I read that over and over and see no reference to other Faiths. It does talk about those that are disguised in Christ's name and His Ministers may be the ones talked about.

Stands to reason, as doctrine and disagreements have made it very hard to determine what the original Message of Christ may have meant. So what is it when Paul says this?

"But what I am doing I will continue to do, in order to eliminate the pretext of those who are wanting a basis for being found equal to us in the things about which they boast."

Could Paul be saying that it will be the many Christians, interpreting scripture like an Apostle, are actually boasting of a knowledge they just do not have?

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That being said, there was only one Jesus Christ who came in the flesh.....his death and resurrection did not pave the way for another appearance in the flesh, only to die again. His first appearance as a mortal human was part of the rescue mission that God arranged to redeem those who were sentenced to a life of sin and death because of what Adam had done. (Romans 5:12) It would make no sense for Christ to return as a mere mortal again. Jesus was sinless and so not subject to sin inherited from Adam.

That interpretation appears to not consider this passage;

Hebrews 9:28 "so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him..."

It appears Christ will return and it will be for a collective Salvation.

One can see how disagreements can pave the way to divisions.

Regards Tony

 

[Deeje]

I read that over and over and see no reference to other Faiths. It does talk about those that are disguised in Christ's name and His Ministers may be the ones talked about.

Jesus made no allowance for other faiths. He said that salvation originated with the Jews....not Islam or any other belief system. The covenant was made with Abraham and his descendants for the Messiah to come through his family line. If one is to accept Jesus as the Christ, then that rules out every other faith that denies his sacrifice and his heavenly origins. It was the primary reason why he came...to offer his life as a ransom. (Matthew 20:28)

Stands to reason, as doctrine and disagreements have made it very hard to determine what the original Message of Christ may have meant. So what is it when Paul says this?

"But what I am doing I will continue to do, in order to eliminate the pretext of those who are wanting a basis for being found equal to us in the things about which they boast."

There were men in the first century trying to make out that they were superfine apostles but boasting like Pharisees. The one thing that defined Jesus' teachings was his humility.

Peter wrote to fellow Christians who had also come to be in the office of older men in the Christian congregation at 1 Peter 5:1-4: “Therefore, to the older men among you I give this exhortation, for I too am an older man with them and a witness of the sufferings of the Christ, a sharer even of the glory that is to be revealed: Shepherd the flock of God in your care, not under compulsion, but willingly; neither for love of dishonest gain, but eagerly; neither as lording it over those who are God’s inheritance, but becoming examples to the flock."

Some among those whom Paul was referencing were not doing as Peter said, but wanting to "lord it over" the flock. They were not setting a good example.

Could Paul be saying that it will be the many Christians, interpreting scripture like an Apostle, are actually boasting of a knowledge they just do not have?

Boasting in any way was not the trait of a true Christian.

Matthew 23:1-12.....

"Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples, saying: 2 “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the seat of Moses. 3 Therefore, all the things they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds, for they say but they do not practice what they say.4 They bind up heavy loads and put them on the shoulders of men, but they themselves are not willing to budge them with their finger. 5 All the works they do, they do to be seen by men, for they broaden the scripture-containing cases that they wear as safeguards and lengthen the fringes of their garments. 6 They like the most prominent place at evening meals and the front seats in the synagogues 7 and the greetings in the marketplaces and to be called Rabbi by men. 8 But you, do not you be called Rabbi, for one is your Teacher, and all of you are brothers. 9 Moreover, do not call anyone your father on earth, for one is your Father, the heavenly One. 10 Neither be called leaders, for your Leader is one, the Christ. 11 But the greatest one among you must be your minister. 12 Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted."

Jesus needed to teach them humility because they had not seen it demonstrated among their leaders. One of the undesirable traits that Jesus' disciples showed was their constant arguments over who was the greatest among them. They had to lose that prideful mindset.

 

[Deeje]

That interpretation appears to not consider this passage;

Hebrews 9:28 "so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him..."

It appears Christ will return and it will be for a collective Salvation.

Christ's return was to bring judgment, separation, blessings for the righteous ("sheep") and punishment for those he deems to be unworthy of citizenship in his Kingdom. ("goats")

Matthew 25:31-34; 41..."When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left.
"Then the King will say to those on his right: ‘Come, you who have been blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the founding of the world.......41 “Then he will say to those on his left: ‘Go away from me, you who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels."

Revelation 1:7...."Look! He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief because of him."

It was to be a spectacular event....and it hasn't happened yet. All the tribes of the earth would know about it. And those who are deemed to be "goats" will "beat themselves in grief" knowing their fate.

One can see how disagreements can pave the way to divisions.

"Do not think I came to bring peace to the earth; I came to bring, not peace, but a sword. 35 For I came to cause division, with a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36 Indeed, a man’s enemies will be those of his own household. 37 Whoever has greater affection for father or mother than for me is not worthy of me; and whoever has greater affection for son or daughter than for me is not worthy of me. 38 And whoever does not accept his torture stake and follow after me is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:34-38)

Jesus said he came to "cause division".....that is how he separates the "sheep from the goats"....even within families. That is how individual the judgment is. And this indicates that family ties are not an excuse to deny the Christ.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Jesus made no allowance for other faiths. He said that salvation originated with the Jews

That would be a personal opinion of what has been offered in the Bible. It has no more weight than this following suggestion.

I see there is more to what it is to be a Jew, this from the web is an example;

"..But there is also a deeper meaning to the name "Jew. The first individual to be called a Jew (Yehudi) in the Scriptures was Mordecai, of Purim fame. "There was a man, a Yehudi, in Shushan the capital, whose name was Mordecai . . . a Yemini" (Esther 2:5). The Talmud (Tractate Megillah12b) asks on this: "He is called a Yehudi, implying that he descended from Judah; he then is called Yemini, implying that he is a Benjaminite!" Rabbi Jochanan responds: "He was a Benjaminite. Yet he was called a Yehudi because he rejected idolatry—and anyone who rejects idolatry is called a Yehudi."

The commentaries explain that the name Yehudah shares the same root as the Hebrew word hoda'ah, which means acknowledgement or submission. One who acknowledges G‑d's existence and submits to His authority—to the extent that he is willing to sacrifice his life for the sanctification of His name—he is called a Yehudi...."

Thus with this we can see a Jew could also be a person that submits to Gods Law, a major teaching of Islam and the Baha'i Faith also.

That means all humanity is covered by Gods Laws and has a choice of Gods Messengers.

This adds weight to Christ saying I have more sheep that are not of that fold and tells of a day of One Fold and One Shepherd, our One and Only God.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

It was to be a spectacular event....and it hasn't happened yet. All the tribes of the earth would know about it. And those who are deemed to be "goats" will "beat themselves in grief" knowing their fate

Is this not just repeating the rejection the Jews offered about Christs first apperance? The Jews said it would be unmissable and thus rejected Jesus the Christ.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Christ's return was to bring judgment, separation, blessings for the righteous ("sheep") and punishment for those he deems to be unworthy of citizenship in his Kingdom. ("goats")............Jesus said he came to "cause division".....that is how he separates the "sheep from the goats"....even within families. That is how individual the judgment is. And this indicates that family ties are not an excuse to deny the Christ.

This adds weight to the 2nd apperance that apart from sin will be for Salvation. A Salvation offered to the whole of mankind.

It adds weight that Christ will come with a New Name as He has said.

This new name could be the 'Glory of God', as this is mentioned in many passages of Prophecy.

We could be now in the Day of Jehovah, no less.

Regards Tony

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I don't know if anyone has actually answered this important question....?

Don't we first of all have to ascertain why we have this situation to begin with...? Does God speak with a forked tongue through contradictory messengers in different faiths? Why would he? Does he want us to be confused? No, but the Bible indicates that someone else does.....a rival for the hearts and minds of us humans....someone who has aspirations to be a god himself.

Right from the beginning, the Bible tells us about a rebel spirit, masquerading as a serpent, who planted seeds of doubt in order to get the first humans off-side with God, and on onside with him. What is his stock in trade? Lies and deception. He is the quintessential con artist....with millennia to perfect his craft.

At 2 Corinthians 11:12-15 the apostle Paul said....."But what I am doing I will continue to do, in order to eliminate the pretext of those who are wanting a basis for being found equal to us in the things about which they boast. 13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps disguising himself as an angel of light. 15 It is therefore nothing extraordinary if his ministers also keep disguising themselves as ministers of righteousness. But their end will be according to their works."

The claims made by men are a dime a dozen and whether we believe them or not has largely to do with what we find appealing about them and their message. Satan does not care what "leader" you follow...as long as it isn't the right one. He will convince many that he doesn't even exist.....so how do you argue with that mindset? How do you fight an invisible enemy? Its a perfect set-up....or so he thinks.

What is satan's MO? I heard it illustrated this way......"how do you hide a 40ft tree out in the middle of a cleared field?"

The answer is...you can't. But if you had sufficient time up your sleeve, you could plant a virtual forest of similar looking trees all around the original, and in time, as they all attained the right size, it would become increasingly difficult to find the original tree. The original is not the same genus as all the rest, but they look as good to an untrained eye.

This is exactly what the devil has done. He has had all the time in the world to plant thousands of 'trees'...some similar and some completely different....they are all fakes but the original tree is still there....but now it becomes a real challenge to find it. It has distinct identifying features that were recorded in a book.....only those who study the book will know what to look for....but they must be guided in their interpretation. Since everyone claims to have this guidance....we have a dilemma.

Like counterfeit currency, with counterfeit religion, you don't have to recognize every counterfeit by examining them individually....all you have to do is become familiar with the features of the original and then the counterfeits stick out like sore thumbs.

Will God guide everyone to the real tree? NO! He is not going to make that choice for us....he leaves that up to us. He has provided the description of that one unique 'tree' and allows us to make our own search. God is looking for a certain type of person to become a citizen of his Kingdom. If we are distracted by certain features of the counterfeits that we find appealing, then that tells God something about our qualifications for life in the new world to come. (2 Peter 3:13)

Jesus promised...."No man can come to me unless the Father, who sent me, draws him..." (John 6:44) What does this mean?

He also said at John 14:6..."I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

That being said, there was only one Jesus Christ who came in the flesh.....his death and resurrection did not pave the way for another appearance in the flesh, only to die again. His first appearance as a mortal human was part of the rescue mission that God arranged to redeem those who were sentenced to a life of sin and death because of what Adam had done. (Romans 5:12) It would make no sense for Christ to return as a mere mortal again. Jesus was sinless and so not subject to sin inherited from Adam. That meant that he would never have died of natural causes....he would never have aged or got sick or committed any wrong. Bahaullah died of natural causes, so I do not believe that he could possibly be the returned Christ.

The return of Christ was to be a time of great trouble for the earth as the "last days" of the present system of things began. All the features of the "sign" Jesus gave, had to be fulfilled in this time period. (Matthew 24:3-14) At the conclusion, when all those features have been experienced, including a global preaching work, a spectacular visual display will inform all mankind that it is the time for judgment. Then Matthew 24:29-31 will be take place....."Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity."

I cannot accept that various men of faith from different religious systems have anything to do with the true God....but everything to do with the work of the 'pretender'.

It can be that God never wanted to reveal explicitly about a future Revelation due to a wisdom. Thus, the prophecies regarding next Manifestation of God, or next Covenant of God are described using symbolic language, and difficult allusions. For instance the Prophecies regarding Messiah in the Jewish Scriptures are certainly in the form of allusions, and symbolic. It is indeed for this reason, the Jews do not agree with Christians regarding the fulfilment of prophecies by manifestation of Jesus Christ. Consider that, for instance, Messiah of the Jews was expected to be an anoited king or leader, whereas Jesus was a carpenter. Stating that when Jesus comes back He will establish the Kingdom, sounds more like an excuse to many Jews. Now if one considers that the Kingship of Messiah is an allusion to His High spiritual authority, and being anoited, is an allusion to be chosen by God the Father, then Jesus fits this prophecy. But the question is, could not God reveal the prophecies of Messiah in a clear language instead of allusions and symbols, so, to make it easy for the Jews to accept Jesus? Surely He could have, but He did not want to reveal the interpretations of Prophecies any earlier, until the time of Messiah. Likewise those prophecies regarding future Great Manifestations after Jesus perhaps are written using symbols to hide their meanings, until the appointed time to be revealed.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Question: why there is always disagreement about interpretations of the Books of God when it comes to those verses related to a promised person? Can we say God cannot get His message clear to prevent disagreements?

I think that's the case, though it's also the case people want to listen to themselves, which is how I can read a news story today that says a pastor says we need a more violent Christianity. It's not the first time I've seen Jesus as being painted some commie hippie who's not a "man's man".

I can’t speak for other holy books, but the Bible gives us a reason why there are so many disagreements among people: because there is a Deceiver whose control is extensive (Revelation 12:9); in fact, Jesus called him the “ruler/prince of this world” (John 12:31; John 14:30. Cf. 1 John 5:19). And he can affect people’s minds (2 Corinthians 4:4).

Like the people who wrote the texts? One of the biggest problems with the bible is that it writes itself into uncomfortable corners, like saying all humans are liars but we are to accept what humans wrote about God (and really, the bible is less about God than it is His people because God barely shows up in it).

The Bible was clear; yet cryptic on purpose, to make it only those who pay attention see it.

The bible is usually written to speak metaphorically to an intended audience, of which none of us are. They are like Navajo Code Talker conversations: useful for the people involved, doesn't do much for everyone else.

Only the 66 books of the Bible is "of God."

Only in certain denominations.

The bible itself talks of books that were clearly divinely inspired enough to be mentioned but ... where are they?

Christ said He did not come to bring peace on earth, but a sword.

Those who live by ....

Christ said a man's enemies would be those of his own household.

I can sympathize with Jesus having "family drama". Don't take it out on everyone else, though, Jesus.

Believers will be persecuted and ill=treated by unbelievers and so it has been and still is today.

That is usually because believers are usually ignorant of what is actually in the beliefs and they have boatloads of arrogance and not an ounce of humility. Fix that and the "persecution" will reduce considerably.

This is God's design and it is infinitely wise and holy.

God's plan of making a text that many people don't like is bad business. He should speak to Grand Negus Gint for hints on successful scripture making.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I think that's the case, though it's also the case people want to listen to themselves, which is how I can read a news story today that says a pastor says we need a more violent Christianity. It's not the first time I've seen Jesus as being painted some commie hippie who's not a "man's man".

Kelly, Your observations above, tie into your commemt below.

God's plan of making a text that many people don't like is bad business. He should speak to Grand Negus Gint for hints on successful scripture making

We might have to consider that God gives His Message at a time that man least wants to hear it, at a time when the majority have turned away from what God has advised us to do, albeit many still do think that are acting in a Godly way.

It appears God wants us to maintain our free will, a free will that allows our heart to choose between what is good and all levels of what is not good.

In this passage quoted below, Baha'u'llah has said that the Message he gave was open and clear, that Message contained all that was required for the Most Great Peace, why then did we not see it that way?

"...Referring to these Tablets addressed to the sovereigns of the earth, and which ‘Abdu’l-Bahá has acclaimed as a “miracle,” Bahá’u’lláh has written: “Each one of them hath been designated by a special name. The first hath been named ‘The Rumbling,’ the second, ‘The Blow,’ the third, ‘The Inevitable,’ the fourth, ‘The Plain,’ the fifth, ‘The Catastrophe,’ and the others, ‘The Stunning Trumpet Blast,’ ‘The Near Event,’ ‘The Great Terror,’ ‘The Trumpet,’ ‘The Bugle,’ and their like, so that all the peoples of the earth may know, of a certainty, and may witness, with outward and inner eyes, that He Who is the Lord of Names hath prevailed, and will continue to prevail, under all conditions, over all men…. Never since the beginning of the world hath the Message been so openly proclaimed…. Glorified be this Power which hath shone forth and compassed the worlds! This act of the Causer of Causes hath, when revealed, produced two results. It hath at once sharpened the swords of the infidels, and unloosed the tongues of such as have turned towards Him in His remembrance and praise. This is the effect of the fertilizing winds, mention of which hath been made aforetime in the Lawḥ-i-Haykal. The whole earth is now in a state of pregnancy. The day is approaching when it will have yielded its noblest fruits, when from it will have sprung forth the loftiest trees, the most enchanting blossoms, the most heavenly blessings. Immeasurably exalted is the breeze that wafteth from the garment of thy Lord, the Glorified! For lo, it hath breathed its fragrance and made all things new! Well it is with them that comprehend......"

This is the world at this very moment, those that offer rebellion against the needed change and those that are working for the needed change. All that is happening at this time will pave the way for humanity to look for unity.

Kelly, it is up to each of us as an individual to make the change in our own hearts.

Regards Tony

 

[Dawnofhope]

Jesus made no allowance for other faiths. He said that salvation originated with the Jews....not Islam or any other belief system. The covenant was made with Abraham and his descendants for the Messiah to come through his family line. If one is to accept Jesus as the Christ, then that rules out every other faith that denies his sacrifice and his heavenly origins. It was the primary reason why he came...to offer his life as a ransom. (Matthew 20:28)

Hi @Deeje,

I'd like to offer a few reflections on what you have written as it is probably THE issue where we differ the most.

There are many ways of interpreting sacred writings that are nearly two thousand years old. In the modern multicultural world it makes no sense to many of us to take an exclusive approach. In my day to day work as a medical doctor I meet many people from different faiths and the experience I have with many Muslims, Buddhists, Christians and Hindus is they live lifes worthy of admiration. The Christians don't distinguish themselves as any better or worse than other religious adherents. I read the sacred writiings of these faiths and see how they would bring out the excellent qualities in the people I see. It reminds me of the words of Jesus, by their fruits ye shall know them.

Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Matthew 7:16-20

So what the fruits of the spirit? St Paul has spoken of these:
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Galatians 5:22-23

These are qualities that all the main religions teach and are reflected in the lives of their followers. So we need to be sensible when interpreting scipture to ensure it reflects reality.

Matthew is perhaps the most Jewish of the gospels in that it has over 60 references to the Tanakh.
OT Quotations in the Gospel of Matthew

Jesus taught an almost exclusively Jewish audience and the author of Matthew refers repeatedly Jesus's claim to be the Messiah prophecised in the Tanakh. There's nothing to suggest any criticism of religions such as Buddhism and Hinduism that were largely unknown to Jesus's audience or to Islam that wasn't to emerge as a religion for nearly 600 years.

The way many Christians have interpreted their scripture turns their faith into an "I'm right and your wrong religion" and the JWs if I understand correctly takes it to another level and says to all the other Christians "We're right and your wrong".

The problem with that approach is Christians are not that good and the adherents of faiths they condemn not that bad. Similiarly, can you honestly claim JWs distinguish themselves from their fellow Christians.

 

[Tumah]

That would be a personal opinion of what has been offered in the Bible. It has no more weight than this following suggestion.

I see there is more to what it is to be a Jew, this from the web is an example;

"..But there is also a deeper meaning to the name "Jew. The first individual to be called a Jew (Yehudi) in the Scriptures was Mordecai, of Purim fame. "There was a man, a Yehudi, in Shushan the capital, whose name was Mordecai . . . a Yemini" (Esther 2:5). The Talmud (Tractate Megillah12b) asks on this: "He is called a Yehudi, implying that he descended from Judah; he then is called Yemini, implying that he is a Benjaminite!" Rabbi Jochanan responds: "He was a Benjaminite. Yet he was called a Yehudi because he rejected idolatry—and anyone who rejects idolatry is called a Yehudi."

The commentaries explain that the name Yehudah shares the same root as the Hebrew word hoda'ah, which means acknowledgement or submission. One who acknowledges G‑d's existence and submits to His authority—to the extent that he is willing to sacrifice his life for the sanctification of His name—he is called a Yehudi...."

Thus with this we can see a Jew could also be a person that submits to Gods Law, a major teaching of Islam and the Baha'i Faith also.

That means all humanity is covered by Gods Laws and has a choice of Gods Messengers.

This adds weight to Christ saying I have more sheep that are not of that fold and tells of a day of One Fold and One Shepherd, our One and Only God.

Regards Tony

Your conclusion is not born out by the piece you've quoted whatsoever.
For one thing, the Talmud clearly expresses that only those who reject idolatry at the risk of their life is given the epithet Yehudi. This has nothing to do with submitting to G-d's Law and is therefore not applicable to anyone who has not done so.

Never mind the fact that according to Judaism (and the Rabbi making this statement), neither Islam nor Baha'i, nor in fact all of humanity actually follow or submit themselves to G-d's Law. You're taking a quote from a different religion and re-evaluating it under your own theology so as to be more inclusive than was intended by the one making the remark and the context it was made in.

Lastly, despite what the website you've quoted says, we are called "Jews" because we originate as a nation most recently from the kingdom of Judea. The Talmud here is not explaining why the Jewish people are called Jews, this is already obvious. It's asking, why is it important to point out that Mordechai is a Judean - of course he was, he comes from the Kingdom of Judah? The Rabbi's response is that the term Yehudi is being used as an epithet here, not speaking about his origin (as a Judean - Jew), but to his nature (an idol rejector).

Only people belonging to the Jewish religion can be called "Jew" because the name itself is taken from our last kingdom to mean the nation of people who follow the Jewish religion and is unrelated to any theological doctrine. I understand you guys inherited supercessionism from the two religions that precede you, but know that that doctrine is an ugly beast.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Your conclusion is not born out by the piece you've quoted whatsoever.
For one thing, the Talmud clearly expresses that only those who reject idolatry at the risk of their life is given the epithet Yehudi. This has nothing to do with submitting to G-d's Law and is therefore not applicable to anyone who has not done so.

Never mind the fact that according to Judaism (and the Rabbi making this statement), neither Islam nor Baha'i, nor in fact all of humanity actually follow or submit themselves to G-d's Law. You're taking a quote from a different religion and re-evaluating it under your own theology so as to be more inclusive than was intended by the one making the remark and the context it was made in.

Lastly, despite what the website you've quoted says, we are called "Jews" because we originate as a nation most recently from the kingdom of Judea. The Talmud here is not explaining why the Jewish people are called Jews, this is already obvious. It's asking, why is it important to point out that Mordechai is a Judean - of course he was, he comes from the Kingdom of Judah? The Rabbi's response is that the term Yehudi is being used as an epithet here, not speaking about his origin (as a Judean - Jew), but to his nature (an idol rejector).

Only people belonging to the Jewish religion can be called "Jew" because the name itself is taken from our last kingdom to mean the nation of people who follow the Jewish religion and is unrelated to any theological doctrine. I understand you guys inherited supercessionism from the two religions that precede you, but know that that doctrine is an ugly beast.

You may very well have accepted a wrong conclusion, as G_d to me is all inclusive of all His Creation. It lacks Humility to think one is chosen or special, as this is the Station of the messenger and Prophets chosen by G_d.

For us our actions and deeds determine who we are and it is G_d to judge each and all of us.

Consider in all Faiths there have been people that fulfilled the following requirement as you have stated it.

"The Talmud clearly expresses that only those who reject idolatry at the risk of their life is given the epithet Yehudi. This has nothing to do with submitting to G-d's Law and is therefore not applicable to anyone who has not done so."

So Christains have done this, Muslims have done this, Babi and Baha'i have done this and Zoroastrians, Hindus, Buddhists and the list goes on. They have become the chosen people by that sacrafice. The rank of Martydom can also be obtained in selfless service. Thus many millions of others also qualify.

I do not see any person following a different religion, I do see all of humanity struggling to find we are one people with One G-d. No one is special unless they serve all humanity, give their life to G_d.

Regards Tony