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Dionysus and Jesus

Holdasown

Active Member
I read an article written by a disciple of Dionysus who believes Jim Morrison was either a priest or incarnation of Dionysus. He incorporated Morrison's in ritual work and offerings
Occult stuff? No. As far as I'm aware, occultism is unrelated to that film that shall not be named, and conspiracy theories are another genre entirely. Given many religions include occult practices, I wouldn't lump that in with conspiracy theories or stuff "not worth anyone's time."

The movie is used to discredit Christians and Christ and was done by an atheist. They take any Christian image and any pagan image that might match and tie them all up with one bow. It's insulting to all the religions involved.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
What are the similarities between Dionysus and Jesus?

Some websites have a huge list of similarities between the two, but I don't know which ones to trust.

Could you help me out?

Perhaps you can take a break from attacking Christian concepts and go bother another religion, say, for a week. Because every time you come back to Christianity, you evidence to me it's true.

I challenge you to do as I had and ask God for proof that Jesus is the Christ.
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
Perhaps you can take a break from attacking Christian concepts and go bother another religion, say, for a week. Because every time you come back to Christianity, you evidence to me it's true.

I challenge you to do as I had and ask God for proof that Jesus is the Christ.
This Thread is not an attack on Christ.

I just didn't believe what websites said about Jesus and Dionysus, so I thought I would ask people here instead.

My problem is not with people imitating Christ. My problem is with a Bible that severely contradicts it's self and encourages behavior that I find detestable.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
The movie is used to discredit Christians and Christ and was done by an atheist. They take any Christian image and any pagan image that might match and tie them all up with one bow. It's insulting to all the religions involved.

I only find it insulting because accurate information is lacking or various things are misconstrued. Comparative religion is fascinating and useful, but only when it's done with integrity (preferably of the academic sort). It's quite true that all new religious movements build upon something that existed in the surrounding cultural environment. Christianity is no exception to that, but the lines that are drawn need to be supported by sound scholarship and evidence. Having a connection to the past doesn't discredit the present, though I suppose I can see how some Christians might take acknowledging their pre-Christian roots as offensive.
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
I only find it insulting because accurate information is lacking or various things are misconstrued. Comparative religion is fascinating and useful, but only when it's done with integrity (preferably of the academic sort). It's quite true that all new religious movements build upon something that existed in the surrounding cultural environment. Christianity is no exception to that, but the lines that are drawn need to be supported by sound scholarship and evidence. Having a connection to the past doesn't discredit the present, though I suppose I can see how some Christians might take acknowledging their pre-Christian roots as offensive.
I can understand that. Where should the newly interested person turn for information? How shall a layperson getting started proceed? Who should they trust?

Another question is what causes person A to become interested in comparative religion versus person B who is only interested in using religious knowledge for some purpose? Its so useful sometimes to appear educated without actually being so. Also what if you just want enough knowledge to keep from being hoodwinked but don't want to become an expert?
 

JoshuaTree

Flowers are red?
This Thread is not an attack on Christ.

I just didn't believe what websites said about Jesus and Dionysus, so I thought I would ask people here instead.

My problem is not with people imitating Christ. My problem is with a Bible that severely contradicts it's self and encourages behavior that I find detestable.

The point of the law was never to encourage detestable behavior such as killing, killing, killing... Disobey the law and be killed. Those who failed to uphold the law disobeyed the law and were subject to the same fate of those spared. The same people who zealously stoned adulterer(ess)s likely spared their own children (children who curse their parents are to be put to death) thus deserving the same death sentence they were serving up to their neighbor... yet people of the day could not see the hypocrisy of their actions and rather than have mercy on their fellow sinners as was the point of the thing the killing went on and on and on. If the point of the law was killing, killing, killing shouldn't Jesus had wiped man from the face of the earth? Instead Jesus showed us mercy by refusing to carry out the killing thereby taking on the punishment for the sins of the world and was put to death. The overarching message of the bible is mercy, that you find parts of the bible detestable is a good thing I think and I don't mind saying that I respect your stand on the matter.

Blessings!
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
I can understand that. Where should the newly interested person turn for information? How shall a layperson getting started proceed? Who should they trust?

Another question is what causes person A to become interested in comparative religion versus person B who is only interested in using religious knowledge for some purpose? Its so useful sometimes to appear educated without actually being so. Also what if you just want enough knowledge to keep from being hoodwinked but don't want to become an expert?

It's certainly not easy. I'd tell people to start with information literacy. I get the general impression that information literacy is poor in my culture - a situation made even worse with the rise of the internet and especially social media. I'm grateful that I grew up in a household with an expert in information literacy... and in the era before the internet that has so thickly muddied the waters.

Start with talking to your librarians. Really, that's the best advice I have. They are specialists in information, whether it's locating it or evaluating it. More often than not, starting at a public library is a good call. Another really good resource is your network of public universities. Sometimes they'll have an extension office to handle public inquiries for particular areas, but the university libraries are basically research assets usable by anyone in the state.

It's work. Learning is work. Anybody who has been a college student knows this, and studying religion in any depth is college-level stuff. But it's doable. :D
 
I read an article written by a disciple of Dionysus who believes Jim Morrison was either a priest or incarnation of Dionysus. He incorporated Morrison's in ritual work and offerings


The movie is used to discredit Christians and Christ and was done by an atheist. They take any Christian image and any pagan image that might match and tie them all up with one bow. It's insulting to all the religions involved.
Christians have there hoxy number click on the link.
Horus Ruins Christmas | Lutheran Satire
 

GoodbyeDave

Well-Known Member
One place you can apparently find Dionysos is in the Acts of the Apostles. Some of the story of Paul appears to be based on Euripides' Bacchae.
Paul hears a voice, sees a vision, and falls to the ground. (Acts 9.7 = Bac. 576-604)
Paul and Silas are in prison. Their chans fall off and the door opens. (Acts 16.25-29 = Bac.447-8)
 

The Emperor of Mankind

Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
Ah the "Jesus is similar to other figures" myth. I researched every claim I could find years ago and put my findings into a document. Here was my compiled findings about the claimed similarities between Jesus and Dionysus. Red is claims I feel can't be made, green are claims I feel could be argued, if spuriously:

-Claim #1: Born of a virgin on December 25
I can’t find any claims of Dionysus’ birthday. But his father was Zeus. And if you know anything about Greek mythology with that fact alone it should be obvious how absurd the idea that Dionysus was the son of a virgin with Zeus of all people as his father is!! Now Zeus has a lot of weird sex, in this case impregnating Dionysus’ mother with a lightning bolt, but given Zeus’ promiscuous nature I’d say that’s just another case of his weird sexuality. Lightning impregnation != virgin birth.
-Claim #2: He was placed in a manger
There’s no evidence of this happening to Dionysus. In one story his mother was incinerated, causing him to be “born” prenatally. Zeus does not put him into a manger, but then sews Dionysus to his leg until the god is ready to go out on his own.
-Claim #3: He was a traveling teacher
Dionysus is a god of reversals, meaning reversals of social norms. He was a traveling partier and spread wine, sex, art, and madness.
-Claim #4: He performed miracles.
As a god, of course Dionysus did, but the miracles of his travels are a bit different. He’s prone to drive people insane or otherwise curse them if they are too rigid in enforcing social order. That’s not the kind of miracles the claimant wants you to believe he has done, of course, as he’s trying to draw parallels with the miracles of Jesus.
-Claim #5: He “rode in a triumphal procession on an donkey.”
This is true, though he rode the donkey constantly and the reason and message behind the donkey is different. Jesus rode as a sign of humility. Dionysus, as god of reversals, revels in having an inglorious mount.
-Claim #6: He was a sacred king killed and eaten in an eucharistic ritual for fecundity and purification.
Not at all. As a baby Dionysus was killed by Titans, butchered, roasted, and literally, not figuratively, devoured by his enemies except for his heart. Because gods are gods, Zeus is able to heal Dionysus from his heart alone but that’s really not anything like the eucharist.
-Claim #7: Dionysus rose from the dead on March 25.
No date is given, and he didn’t actually “die” in the above story. He survived being dismembered and devoured and healed from just the remaining heart. This is not uncommon, the gods can survive lots in Greek mythology. Zeus literally ate his first wife, the Goddess of Wisdom, but she’s still alive, inside of him, giving him advice and divine wisdom.
-Claim #8: He was the God of the Vine, and turned water into wine.
Actually Dionysus summons wine from nothing. He turns empty jugs into jugs of wine. He’s the God of Wine, after all, he doesn’t need something like water as a baseline to conjure up alcohol!!
-Claim #9: He was called “King of Kings” and “God of Gods.”
That title was Zeus’, not Dionysus’.
-Claim #10: He was identified with the Ram or Lamb.
He had ram’s horns. But the animal associated with him was the bull. Lambs, having no horns being too young, do not even enter into the equation.
-Claim #11: He was considered the “Only Begotten Son,”
Watching Disney’s Hercules, while largely inaccurate to the Greek mythos, is still accurate enough to disprove this title was even an option to call Dionysus, Son of Zeus.
-Claim #12: He was considered the “Savior”, “Redeemer”, “Sin Bearer”, “Anointed One”, “Alpha and Omega”
Dionysus’ actual titles are the following: “Fire-Born”, “Son of the Nymphs”, “First-Born”, "Well-Fruited", "He of the Green Fruit", "Teeming", "Bursting”, “Roarer” “Loud-Shouter", "God of Many Forms", "Render of Men", "He Who Delights in Sword and Bloodshed", "Womanly One", "Womanly Stranger", and finally “Dionysus of the Tree”, which brings us to...
-Claim #13: His title of “Young Man of the Tree” indicates he was hung on a tree or crucified.
If the title “of the Tree” indicates that he was nailed to or hung from a tree, then I can only assume “King Malcolm of Scotland” was killed by being nailed to Scotland. Dionysus was, in addition to his other functions, the God of Trees. The title “of the Trees” hardly denotes being killed by trees, unless, of course, you have the gift of wishful thinking.

So looking at my notes from years ago, the total similarities are both traveled, both performed miracles, and both rode a donkey. Three very vague similarities in my own opinion.

Edit: Replaced *** with donkey. Really surprised that *** is even censored given how often the word appears in older translations of many scriptures :p .

This is a good list but there are a couple of inaccuracies I'd like to correct.

-Claim #8: He was the God of the Vine, and turned water into wine.
Actually Dionysus summons wine from nothing. He turns empty jugs into jugs of wine. He’s the God of Wine, after all, he doesn’t need something like water as a baseline to conjure up alcohol!!

There is actually an instance of the god turning an entire river to wine. It's in an obscure text that I think only historians, Greek polytheists or Dionysian cultists might have heard of so it's understandable that you missed it. It's called the Dionysiaca and it's a collection of various stories of Dionysus collated by a man called Nonnos who probably wished to keep the Pagan ways alive in the face of state Christianity. It's also one of the last Pagan texts to come out of the Classical world.

Basically Dionysus leads his assorted followers - satyrs, revellers, centaurs and what-have-you, to battle against the Indians who are stirred to war by Hera. In order to win the first encounter he pours a potion into a river which crosses the battlefield. The Indians, exhausted from the heat of battle, drank and summarily went mad or fell into a deep sleep from which they woke as captives.


-Claim #12: He was considered the “Savior”, “Redeemer”, “Sin Bearer”, “Anointed One”, “Alpha and Omega”
Dionysus’ actual titles are the following: “Fire-Born”, “Son of the Nymphs”, “First-Born”, "Well-Fruited", "He of the Green Fruit", "Teeming", "Bursting”, “Roarer” “Loud-Shouter", "God of Many Forms", "Render of Men", "He Who Delights in Sword and Bloodshed", "Womanly One", "Womanly Stranger", and finally “Dionysus of the Tree”, which brings us to...

As a god of intoxicants and as you astutely put, a reverser of social norms, Dionysus did have an epithet known as Eleutherios - which can be translated as 'saviour' or 'liberator'. This was seen in a very real sense in that drinking was more than likely an activity to free men and women from day-to-day cares as well as from established social norms. There's also the story that describes the god as being a liberator in a 'breaker of chains' sense. When Dionysus tries to bring his cult to Thebes, the Theban king Pentheus harries the god into the sea and imprisons his followers. The young god later returns to the city and frees his followers by merely wishing their chains to fall off and their cell doors to open. Thus they escape. There's also the story which involves Dionysus being captured by pirates. They try to tie Bakcheos to the mast of their ship but every time the pirates do the ropes simply fall away without binding him.
 
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I didn't think that JC was born on 25th December (if at all) - it was just a convenient date to hijack to coincide with the Winter Solstice celebrations already occurring then

Other than some form of post hoc ergo propter hoc reasoning, there is no actual evidence for this (and good reasons to be very sceptical about it), although it will no doubt keep on being uncritically regurgitated as fact because it fits a desired narrative.
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
Other than some form of post hoc ergo propter hoc reasoning, there is no actual evidence for this (and good reasons to be very sceptical about it), although it will no doubt keep on being uncritically regurgitated as fact because it fits a desired narrative.
I thought the evidence related to the appearance of The Star of Bethlehem, which has been tied into a planetary conjunction.

Whatever, even biblical sights doubt he was born on 25th December...
Biblical Evidence Shows Jesus Christ Wasn't Born on Dec. 25
 
I thought the evidence related to the appearance of The Star of Bethlehem, which has been tied into a planetary conjunction.

Whatever, even biblical sights doubt he was born on 25th December...
Biblical Evidence Shows Jesus Christ Wasn't Born on Dec. 25

Sorry, wasn't meaning to say he was born on the 25th, just that the idea about purposely appropriating a pagan festival is flawed and certainly is not a fact.

There are generally 3 theories promoted

1. Coopting paganism to boost Christianity's popularity (either solstice or Sol Invictus)
2. Date is exactly 9 months from the Annunciation
3. Solstice chosen as auspicious for the same cultural reasons that made it auspicious in numerous other belief systems. So chosen despite it's associations, not because of them. This fits better with the fact that early Christians distanced themselves from paganism to the point it got them persecuted and the fact that 25 Dec date can likely be attested to before the end of the Diocletian Persecutions.

For me, 1 is the least plausible, and if indeed it was chosen to reflect the solstice, it is more likely that this was done despite it's pagan connections, rather than because of them due to the circumstantial evidence that exists and the absence of evidence for the likely conflict this would have caused.

Absent new evidence though, it's unlikely we will ever know for certain.
 
It's quite true that all new religious movements build upon something that existed in the surrounding cultural environment.

One thing that annoys me is the common assumption that religions which built on common cultural artefacts, or existent religious tropes are somehow committing some form of 'plagiarism'. That similarities must reflect disingenuous attempts to steal from others, rather than are natural products of a common cultural environment.

Never quite understood how someone could 'plagiarise' their own cultural heritage.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
This Thread is not an attack on Christ.

I just didn't believe what websites said about Jesus and Dionysus, so I thought I would ask people here instead.

My problem is not with people imitating Christ. My problem is with a Bible that severely contradicts it's self and encourages behavior that I find detestable.

Again, you are proving to me Christianity is real, and the devil hates Christians more than others, because you 1) only find problems with the Bible and biblical Christians rather than other religions 2) because you exacerbate your anger and depressing spending time here attacking same.

Take a few weeks off the forum. You'll feel better!
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
One thing that annoys me is the common assumption that religions which built on common cultural artefacts, or existent religious tropes are somehow committing some form of 'plagiarism'. That similarities must reflect disingenuous attempts to steal from others, rather than are natural products of a common cultural environment.

Never quite understood how someone could 'plagiarise' their own cultural heritage.

On top of that, the idea of intelletual property as practiced today is a fairly modern concept. A concept that is fairly questionable, IMHO. The only folks who care about intellectual property are capitalists looking to make a profit off something and people whose self worth is for some reason attached to owning "their" ideas and getting credit for them. But maybe I'm just cynical on this...
 

The Emperor of Mankind

Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
Perhaps you can take a break from attacking Christian concepts and go bother another religion, say, for a week. Because every time you come back to Christianity, you evidence to me it's true.

I challenge you to do as I had and ask God for proof that Jesus is the Christ.


Again, you are proving to me Christianity is real, and the devil hates Christians more than others, because you 1) only find problems with the Bible and biblical Christians rather than other religions 2) because you exacerbate your anger and depressing spending time here attacking same.

Take a few weeks off the forum. You'll feel better!

Pope doesn't single out Christianity. He's made posts and threads about Islam before. Your beliefs are not being targeted for special treatment; Christianity is not being attacked. You can put your persecution complex down.
 

Sanzbir

Well-Known Member
As a god of intoxicants and as you astutely put, a reverser of social norms, Dionysus did have an epithet known as Eleutherios - which can be translated as 'saviour' or 'liberator'. This was seen in a very real sense in that drinking was more than likely an activity to free men and women from day-to-day cares as well as from established social norms. There's also the story that describes the god as being a liberator in a 'breaker of chains' sense. When Dionysus tries to bring his cult to Thebes, the Theban king Pentheus harries the god into the sea and imprisons his followers. The young god later returns to the city and frees his followers by merely wishing their chains to fall off and their cell doors to open. Thus they escape. There's also the story which involves Dionysus being captured by pirates. They try to tie Bakcheos to the mast of their ship but every time the pirates do the ropes simply fall away without binding him.

Hey do you have a source on that second one?? As I mentioned I made this list years ago so I'd like to update it with sources if possible.
 

The Emperor of Mankind

Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
Hey do you have a source on that second one?? As I mentioned I made this list years ago so I'd like to update it with sources if possible.

Do you mean Dionysus as a freer from chains? Yeah, it's in a play called Bacchae written by the Athenian playwright Euripides.

Bac. 444-451

"By the way, those women
you had shackled and sent to the dungeon?
They're gone. Clean away.
They're bounding up the mountain now,
calling for Bromios/
The chains just fell off them, like magic,
and the doors unbolted and swung open,
all by themselves,
I tell you something,
this man who's come to Thebes is full of miracles.
That's all I know. The rest is up to you."
 
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