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Dionysus and Jesus

Spiderman

Veteran Member
What are the similarities between Dionysus and Jesus?

Some websites have a huge list of similarities between the two, but I don't know which ones to trust.

Could you help me out?
 

Sanzbir

Well-Known Member
Ah the "Jesus is similar to other figures" myth. I researched every claim I could find years ago and put my findings into a document. Here was my compiled findings about the claimed similarities between Jesus and Dionysus. Red is claims I feel can't be made, green are claims I feel could be argued, if spuriously:

-Claim #1: Born of a virgin on December 25
I can’t find any claims of Dionysus’ birthday. But his father was Zeus. And if you know anything about Greek mythology with that fact alone it should be obvious how absurd the idea that Dionysus was the son of a virgin with Zeus of all people as his father is!! Now Zeus has a lot of weird sex, in this case impregnating Dionysus’ mother with a lightning bolt, but given Zeus’ promiscuous nature I’d say that’s just another case of his weird sexuality. Lightning impregnation != virgin birth.
-Claim #2: He was placed in a manger
There’s no evidence of this happening to Dionysus. In one story his mother was incinerated, causing him to be “born” prenatally. Zeus does not put him into a manger, but then sews Dionysus to his leg until the god is ready to go out on his own.
-Claim #3: He was a traveling teacher
Dionysus is a god of reversals, meaning reversals of social norms. He was a traveling partier and spread wine, sex, art, and madness.
-Claim #4: He performed miracles.
As a god, of course Dionysus did, but the miracles of his travels are a bit different. He’s prone to drive people insane or otherwise curse them if they are too rigid in enforcing social order. That’s not the kind of miracles the claimant wants you to believe he has done, of course, as he’s trying to draw parallels with the miracles of Jesus.
-Claim #5: He “rode in a triumphal procession on an donkey.”
This is true, though he rode the donkey constantly and the reason and message behind the donkey is different. Jesus rode as a sign of humility. Dionysus, as god of reversals, revels in having an inglorious mount.
-Claim #6: He was a sacred king killed and eaten in an eucharistic ritual for fecundity and purification.
Not at all. As a baby Dionysus was killed by Titans, butchered, roasted, and literally, not figuratively, devoured by his enemies except for his heart. Because gods are gods, Zeus is able to heal Dionysus from his heart alone but that’s really not anything like the eucharist.
-Claim #7: Dionysus rose from the dead on March 25.
No date is given, and he didn’t actually “die” in the above story. He survived being dismembered and devoured and healed from just the remaining heart. This is not uncommon, the gods can survive lots in Greek mythology. Zeus literally ate his first wife, the Goddess of Wisdom, but she’s still alive, inside of him, giving him advice and divine wisdom.
-Claim #8: He was the God of the Vine, and turned water into wine.
Actually Dionysus summons wine from nothing. He turns empty jugs into jugs of wine. He’s the God of Wine, after all, he doesn’t need something like water as a baseline to conjure up alcohol!!
-Claim #9: He was called “King of Kings” and “God of Gods.”
That title was Zeus’, not Dionysus’.
-Claim #10: He was identified with the Ram or Lamb.
He had ram’s horns. But the animal associated with him was the bull. Lambs, having no horns being too young, do not even enter into the equation.
-Claim #11: He was considered the “Only Begotten Son,”
Watching Disney’s Hercules, while largely inaccurate to the Greek mythos, is still accurate enough to disprove this title was even an option to call Dionysus, Son of Zeus.
-Claim #12: He was considered the “Savior”, “Redeemer”, “Sin Bearer”, “Anointed One”, “Alpha and Omega”
Dionysus’ actual titles are the following: “Fire-Born”, “Son of the Nymphs”, “First-Born”, "Well-Fruited", "He of the Green Fruit", "Teeming", "Bursting”, “Roarer” “Loud-Shouter", "God of Many Forms", "Render of Men", "He Who Delights in Sword and Bloodshed", "Womanly One", "Womanly Stranger", and finally “Dionysus of the Tree”, which brings us to...
-Claim #13: His title of “Young Man of the Tree” indicates he was hung on a tree or crucified.
If the title “of the Tree” indicates that he was nailed to or hung from a tree, then I can only assume “King Malcolm of Scotland” was killed by being nailed to Scotland. Dionysus was, in addition to his other functions, the God of Trees. The title “of the Trees” hardly denotes being killed by trees, unless, of course, you have the gift of wishful thinking.

So looking at my notes from years ago, the total similarities are both traveled, both performed miracles, and both rode a donkey. Three very vague similarities in my own opinion.

Edit: Replaced *** with donkey. Really surprised that *** is even censored given how often the word appears in older translations of many scriptures :p .
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
My understanding is that dionysus was born of a virgin human and a father who was a God.

He died and rose again from the dead.

One of his birthdays is the same as Christmas.

And he turned water into wine like the first miracle of Jesus.

And his followers believe they eat his flesh and drink his blood.
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
My understanding is that dionysus was born of a virgin human and a father who was a God.

He died and rose again from the dead.

One of his birthdays is the same as Christmas.

And he turned water into wine like the first miracle of Jesus.

And his followers believe they eat his flesh and drink his blood.
I posted this post without first reading the one above it
 

JoshuaTree

Flowers are red?
@Sanzbir Do we know God didn't use a lightening bolt to impregnate Mary? If Mary conceived via a bolt of lightening seems reasonable to me that Mary remained a virgin, a bolt of lightening isn't really tangible like a vibrator or a ram's horn. Shouldn't you change the color of claim#1 from red to green? :)
 

Spiderman

Veteran Member
@Sanzbir Do we know God didn't use a lightening bolt to impregnate Mary? If Mary conceived via a bolt of lightening seems reasonable to me that Mary remained a virgin, a bolt of lightening isn't really tangible like a vibrator or a ram's horn. Shouldn't you change the color of claim#1 from red to green? :)
I wonder if a woman ever used a ramshorn to give herself pleasure or impregnation.

I've heard of weirder things.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
What are the similarities between Dionysus and Jesus?

Some websites have a huge list of similarities between the two, but I don't know which ones to trust.

Could you help me out?

It's horse puckey.

This garbage came from a movie by the name of... well, I won't speak it's name. It doesn't deserve the attention nor the power that comes with uttering its name. The movie is fully of a bunch of sloppy "scholarship" and comparative mythology. It might have had an origin before then, but it was popularized by this movie. There are other gods that were caught in this crossfire, not just Dionysus.

In short, ignore those websites. None of them are to be trusted. They're all based on garbage.
 

JoshuaTree

Flowers are red?
I wonder if a woman ever used a ramshorn to give herself pleasure or impregnation.

I've heard of weirder things.

I dunno but the angle looks about right. Nothing in Leviticus stating not to use a ram's horn that I can find, can't use the whole ram though that's a sin.
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
What are these websites? Probably conspiracy theorist or occult stuff not worth anyone's time.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
What are these websites? Probably conspiracy theorist or occult stuff not worth anyone's time.

Occult stuff? No. As far as I'm aware, occultism is unrelated to that film that shall not be named, and conspiracy theories are another genre entirely. Given many religions include occult practices, I wouldn't lump that in with conspiracy theories or stuff "not worth anyone's time."
 

Sanzbir

Well-Known Member
@Sanzbir Do we know God didn't use a lightening bolt to impregnate Mary?

I believe the story is an angel's breath was the method of Mary's impregnation.

If Mary conceived via a bolt of lightening seems reasonable to me that Mary remained a virgin, a bolt of lightening isn't really tangible like a vibrator or a ram's horn. Shouldn't you change the color of claim#1 from red to green? :)

Well, no. The implication is that the birth of Dionysus is similar to the birth of Jesus... when it's really not.

In the Dionysus' tale, Zeus impregnates the woman, after which she asks to see his true form, which he warns her against but she insists. However looking upon Zeus' true form, wreathed in lightning, completely incinerates the woman leaving behind Dionysus' fetal form.

Zeus then sews Dionysus into his leg and later "births" Dionysus himself (and Zeus is certainly not a virgin lol), which is why Dionysus was said to be "twice born".

So one of the births is not virginal because Zeus is not a virgin... but is the other mother Semele a virgin??

Well Hera seemed to think that Zeus impregnating her constituted as infidelity, which is why she manipulates the mortal woman Semele into demanding to see Zeus' true form (which kills her). So from this I glean that:

A) The Greek Gods view sex as a different thing than mere mortal sex.

and B) What happened between Zeus and Semele constitutes sex by divine understandings of the act.

Ergo, in the framework of Greek mythos, Semele is not a virgin.

Additionally, Zeus visits Semele multiple times before the impregnation. It wasn't just a one-night-stand. And we all know how Zeus is... so even if the impregnation can be considered "virginal", I would doubt Semele would be a virgin by that point in time...

And even if we consider Semele a virgin despite the fact the gods of that story did not... the overall point of the comparison is bunk regardless, because this tale of impregnation, incineration, leg-based male impregnation, and male birth hardly resembles any of the tales of the birth of Jesus that exist. :p

This is why I don't like the "Jesus is just like other religious figures" myth. Because saying "Dionysus was born from a virgin" makes the story of Dionysus' birth, which again involves male pregnancy, seem much less interesting and complex, and much more mundane and typical than the actual story is. :p
 

JoshuaTree

Flowers are red?
That is the first mention I've heard of an angel's breath impregnating Mary and it is Conjuring up some confused imagery in my mind.
 

Sanzbir

Well-Known Member
It's horse puckey.

This garbage came from a movie by the name of... well, I won't speak it's name. It doesn't deserve the attention nor the power that comes with uttering its name. The movie is fully of a bunch of sloppy "scholarship" and comparative mythology. It might have had an origin before then, but it was popularized by this movie. There are other gods that were caught in this crossfire, not just Dionysus.

In short, ignore those websites. None of them are to be trusted. They're all based on garbage.

The movie got its ideas from a bunch of books that asserted much of the same. :p Mainly it all comes from a late 1800's book that makes a bunch of ridiculous "comparisons" my favorites of which are:

-Stating that the Greek snake-god Glycon is similar to Jesus, which is no surprise given that Glycon was a satire of Christianity and was founded after Christianity was.
-Stating that the Buddha came back to life again after three days, when not coming back to life/reincarnating is the whole point of a Buddha, breaking the cycle of Samsara.
-Stating the similarities between Jesus and Muhammad, as if it was even possible for the Christians to copy a prophet who was born hundreds of years later.

It's weird how ideas with such an absurd source ever came to be popularized in the first place.
 

Sanzbir

Well-Known Member
Yeah, it's not a myth.
Although admittedly Dionysus isn't the best example.

Yeah, it is. :p Complete and total myth.

It's all from some late 1800's book that claimed that (among other things) early Christians were just ripping off stories about Muhammad.

I looked into every one of the common myths that are warped to try to compare interesting ancient religions with Jesus.

Horus?? Mother was not a virgin, she impregnated herself on a false penis she crafted, sure, but that ain't a virgin birth. :p

Adonis?? Didn't rise from the dead as is commonly said. And wasn't crucified as people lie and say, but was gored to death by a supernatural boar.

I've got my old document open, name the supposed similarity and I can show you why it's wrong. :p Adad?? Adonis?? Sidhartha?? Horus?? Zoroaster?? Which claim in this myth would ya like me to debunk??

Edit: Oh and Anacalypsis, the book this all comes from, is full of conspiracy theories about a secret organization pulling the strings and ruling the world through religion since ancient times.
 
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Salvador

RF's Swedenborgian
Parallels with Christianity[edit]
Main article: Jesus Christ in comparative mythology
Numerous scholars have compared narratives surrounding the Christian figure of Jesus with those associated with Dionysus.

Death and Resurrection[edit]
Some scholars of comparative mythology identify both Dionysus and Jesus with the dying-and-returning god mythological archetype. On the other hand, it has been noted that the details of Dionysus' death and rebirth are starkly different both in content and symbolism from Jesus. The two stories take place in very different historical and geographic contexts. Also, the manner of death is different; in the most common myth, Dionysus was torn to pieces and eaten by the titans, but "eventually restored to a new life" from the heart that was left over.

The Trial[edit]

Sculpture excavated at the Villa of the Papyri depicting Dionysus, Plato, or possibly Poseidon
Another parallel can be seen in The Bacchae where Dionysus appears before King Pentheus on charges of claiming divinity, which is compared to the New Testament scene of Jesus being interrogated by Pontius Pilate. However, a number of scholars dispute this parallel, since the confrontation between Dionysus and Pentheus ends with Pentheus dying, torn into pieces by the mad women, whereas the trial of Jesus ends with him being sentenced to death. The discrepancies between the two stories, including their resolutions, have led many scholars to regard the Dionysus story as radically different from the one about Jesus, except for the parallel of the arrest, which is a detail that appears in many biographies as well.

Sacred Food and Drink[edit]
Other elements, such as the celebration by a ritual meal of bread and wine, also have parallels.The omophagia was the Dionysian act of eating raw flesh and drinking wine to consume the god. Within Orphism, it was believed that consuming the meat and wine was symbolic of the Titans eating the flesh (meat) and blood (wine) of Dionysus and that, by participating in the omophagia, Dionysus' followers could achieve communion with the god. Powell, in particular, argues that precursors to the Catholic notion of transubstantiation can be found in Dionysian religion.

Other parallels[edit]
E. Kessler has argued that the Dionysian cult developed into strict monotheism by the 4th century AD; together with Mithraism and other sects, the cult formed an instance of "pagan monotheism" in direct competition with Early Christianity during Late Antiquity. Scholars from the 16th century onwards, especially Gerard Vossius, also discussed the parallels between the biographies of Dionysus/Bacchus and Moses (Vossius named his sons Dionysius and Isaac). Such comparisons surface in details of paintings by Poussin.

Dionysus - Wikipedia
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
Occult stuff? No. As far as I'm aware, occultism is unrelated to that film that shall not be named, and conspiracy theories are another genre entirely. Given many religions include occult practices, I wouldn't lump that in with conspiracy theories or stuff "not worth anyone's time."
I mean there are people who have made up arbitrary lists of correspondences and work their ideas on history from there without regard for actual research. Although I'm sure no fan of the occult, it wasn't my intention to lump it all in the same. After all, I'm unfamiliar with probably most of the occultisms in the world.
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
-Claim #1: Born of a virgin on December 25
I can’t find any claims of Dionysus’ birthday. But his father was Zeus. And if you know anything about Greek mythology with that fact alone it should be obvious how absurd the idea that Dionysus was the son of a virgin with Zeus of all people as his father is!! Now Zeus has a lot of weird sex, in this case impregnating Dionysus’ mother with a lightning bolt, but given Zeus’ promiscuous nature I’d say that’s just another case of his weird sexuality. Lightning impregnation != virgin birth.
I didn't think that JC was born on 25th December (if at all) - it was just a convenient date to hijack to coincide with the Winter Solstice celebrations already occurring then
 
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