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Dillema of Song of Songs and Mohammed

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Islam, Jan 15, 2007.

  1. Islam

    Islam Member

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    Let's see what classical Jewish scholars had to say about this book (song of songs/shir hashirim):

    "The whole world is not worth the day on which the Song of Songs was given to Israel; for all the writings are holy, but the Song of Songs is the holiest of the holy."
    [Rabbi Akiva (died AD 135), Tractate of Yaddayim (3:5), Mishna]


    "...and the book itself as an allegory depicting in great detail the experiences of the nation in its relations with its God from the Exodus down to *THE COMING OF THE MESSIAH AND THE BUILDING OF THE THIRD TEMPLE.* This in general is also the interpretation of the Midrash Rabbah and such famous scholars as Saadia ben Joseph, Rashi, and Ibn Ezra, although they differ considerably among themselves in details."
    [The Interpreter's Bible Encyclopedia]

    Today if you read the song o songs you come to the obviouse conclusion that it has nothing to do with the coming of a christ or a temple or that it has any holliness in it due to its many erotic stories "your breasts taste like wine" etc. In fact many Jewish scholars today say that it isnt the word of God. So why this contradiction and change of opinion?

    The name MHMD (Mohammad) is certainly in the Bible, in the "Song of Songs", also known as "the song of Solomon", the correct name being "Shir Hashirim". This book is in the Old Testament and is agreed upon by both Christians and Jews and you can find it in ANY Bible.
    The song (at least chapter 5) is not about a woman, neither has it anything to do with Prophet Solomon (Sulayman) peace be upon him.

    Now let us see who this person is... who is MHMD ? What is his description?
    Let's continue reading the Song of Songs/Shir Hashirim:

    SONG OF SONGS 5:10
    "My beloved is white and ruddy, the chiefest among ten thousand."

    Now let us compare this with the description of Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) in the Hadith:
    HADEETH ON WHITE AND RUDDY (reddish) SKIN:
    Rosy color [Sahih Bukhari 4:747];
    "White man reclining on his arm" [Sahih Bukhari, 1:63];
    Whiteness of his armpits [Sahih Muslim, 4:1000];
    Whiteness of his legs [Sahih Muslim, 4:1014, 19:4437];
    Whiteness of his cheek [Sahih Muslim 4:1208];
    Whiteness of his belly [Sahih Muslim 19:4442].
    In all these narrations his whiteness is pointed out as something exceptional for an Arab.

    HADEETH ON "THE CHIEFEST AMONG TEN THOUSAND":

    "The Prophet left Medina (for Mecca) IN THE COMPANY OF TEN THOUSAND (Muslim warriors) in Ramadan" [Sahih Bukhari 5:574]
    Also see Sahih Bukhari 5:622; 626

    SONG OF SONGS 5:11
    "His head is as the most fine gold, his locks are bushy, and black as a raven."

    "His hair GLOSSY AND BLACK, INCLINED TO CURL, he wore long." [Zad al Ma`d 2:45]
    "His head was large, well formed and set on a slender neck." [Zad al Ma`ad 2:45]
    "When he (The Prophet, May Allah peace and blessings be upon him) died, HE HAD SCARCELY TWENTY WHITE HAIRS IN HIS HEAD AND BEARD." [Sahih Bukhari 4:747,748]
    "Anas was asked about the old age of Allah's Apostle (May Allah peace and blessings be upon him). He said, 'ALLAH DID NOT BLEMISH HIM WITH WHITE HAIR." [Sahih Muslim 30:5784]
    "I said to him: O son of my brother, the hair of the Messenger of Allah (May the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) was THICKER THAN YOUR HAIR AND THEY WERE FINER (than yours)." [Sahih Muslim, 3:642]

    SONG OF SONGS 5:12
    "His eyes are as the eyes of doves by the rivers of waters, washed with milk, and fitly set."

    "He had black attractive eyes finely arched by continuous eyebrows." [Zad al Ma`d 2:45]

    "Allah's Messenger (May the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) had a broad face with REDDISH (wide) EYES.." [Sahih Muslim 30:5776] (Note: Doves have reddish eyes.)
     
  2. Islam

    Islam Member

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    SONG OF SONGS 5:13
    "His cheeks are as a bed of spices, as sweet flowers: his lips like lilies, dropping sweet smelling myrrh."

    "He (The Prophet, May the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) also patted my cheek and I experienced a coolness or a fragrance of his hand as if it had been brought out from the scent bag of a
    perfumer." [Sahih Muslim, 30:5758]

    "I never smelt ambergris or musk as fragrant as the fragrance of the body of Allah's Messenger (May the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him)." [Sahih Muslim, 30:5759]

    "I never smelt musk or ambergris and found its fragrance as sweet as the fragrance of Allah's Messenger (May the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him)." [Sahih Muslim 30:5760]

    "Allah's Messenger (May the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) had the most handsome face amongst men." [Sahih Muslim 30:5772]

    SONG OF SONGS 5:14
    "His hands are as gold rings set with the beryl: his belly is as bright ivory overlaid with sapphires."

    "The Prophet had big hands, and I have never seen anybody like him after him" [Sahih Muslim 7:792]

    "I never touched brocade and silk (and found it) as soft as the softness of the palm of Allah's Messenger (May the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him)" [Sahih Muslim, 30:5760]

    "WHITENESS OF HIS BELLY" [Sahih Muslim 19:4442]


    SONG OF SONGS 5:15
    "His legs are as pillars of marble, set upon sockets of fine gold: his countenance is as Lebanon, excellent as the cedars."

    "He (The Prophet, May the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) was innocently bright and had BROAD COUNTENANCE." [Zad al Ma`ad 2:45]

    "..my knee touched the thigh of the Prophet of Allah (May the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him). The wrapper got aside from his thigh, and I could see its whiteness." [Sahih Muslim 19:4437]


    Notice all the above are from the same Chapter. Finally we get to verse 16, where it says:
    His conversation is sweetness itself, he is MACHAMADIM, such is my beloved oh daughters of Jerusalem.

    Machamadim is the same as Mohammad. IM is a plural of respect and MACHAMAD is the same as Mahamad. When translating from hebrew to Arabic the ch becomes a H in the same way when translating from arabic to english the arabic H of Mohammed becomes an ache.

    We also mentioned that the song's name is Shir Hashirim, and that Hashir is one of the names of Prophet Mohammad. Here is the Hadith:

    "Abu Musa al Ash`ari reported that Allah's Messenger (May the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) mentioned many names of his and said, 'I am Mohammad, Ahmad. Muqaffi, Hashir, the Prophet of
    Repentance, and the Prophet of Mercy." [Sahih Muslim, 30:5813]


    After the coming of Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) some Christians and Jews have tried to alter the meaning of the Songs of Songs...some say it's about a Woman!! Most Christians say it's about the Church, and most Jews say it's about God!!
     
  3. Islam

    Islam Member

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    Let's see again what classical Jewish scholars had to say about this book (song of songs/shir hashirim):

    "The whole world is not worth the day on which the Song of Songs was given to Israel; for all the writings are holy, but the Song of Songs is the holiest of the holy."
    [Rabbi Akiva (died AD 135), Tractate of Yaddayim (3:5), Mishna]

    "...and the book itself as an allegory depicting in great detail the experiences of the nation in its relations with its God from the Exodus down to *THE COMING OF THE MESSIAH AND THE BUILDING OF THE THIRD TEMPLE.* This in general is also the interpretation of the Midrash Rabbah and such famous scholars as Saadia ben Joseph, Rashi, and Ibn Ezra, although they differ considerably among themselves in details."
    [The Interpreter's Bible Encyclopedia]

    Ofcourse, Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) is not the Messiah, and ofcourse the Song of Songs never says it is about the coming of the Messiah, but let us remember that Jews often referred to future Prophet/prophets as "Messiah" since the word Messiah simply means anointed one, meaning annointed by God. The "Third Temple" mentioned here is none other than Ka'bah in Meccah.

    This so-called "Third Temple" is mentioned in other parts of the Bible as the Next house of God (which is a better description of Ka'bah).
    In another book of the Old Testament, Haggai, we read:
    Haggai 2:7 "And I will shake all nations, AND THE DESIRE OF ALL NATIONS SHALL COME: and I will fill this house with glory saith the Lord of hosts."

    In place of "desire of all nations", the Hebrew text uses one single word: "CHMD" which is pronouncable as "ACHMAD" (which is "AHMAD" in Arabic). Thus, the translation would be, "And I will shake all nations, AND AHMAD SHALL COME: and I will fill this house with glory saith the Lord of hosts."

    Immediately after that, Haggai 2:9 says "The glory of this latter house shall be greatesr than the former: and in this place will I give PEACE, saith the Lord of hosts."

    And we know that one of the meanings of ISLAM is Peace.

    Oh people bare witness. I have shown you thanks to God that Mohammed is mentioned by his name in your very own book, he commands you through God to pay charity, to have high ethics, to not cheat, to not lie, to do good deeds for with them comes salvation, to worship God alone and associate no partners with Him whatsoever. He commands you to be good with your relatives, with the children. To NOT KILL an innocent person. To have love for humanity and even animals. George bernardshaw called Mohammed "the savior of humanity". Ghandi himself said about Mohammed in his book young India that:

    "I wanted to know the best of one who holds today undisputed sway over the hearts of millions of mankind... I became more than convinced that it was not the sword that won a place for Islam in those days in the scheme of life. It was the rigid simplicity, the utter self-effacement of the Prophet, the scrupulous regard for his pledges, his intense devotion to his friends and followers, his intrepidity, his fearlessness, his absolute trust in God and in his own mission. These and not the sword carried everything before them and surmounted every obstacle. When I closed the 2nd volume (of the Prophet's biography), I was sorry there was not more for me to read of the great life."
     
  4. Comprehend

    Comprehend Res Ipsa Loquitur

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    Is there no end to the muslim threads claiming that the bible is really talking about mohommad? How many threads are there saying that the quran is secretly talking about Joseph Smith?

    It's not always about you. I once had a girlfriend like this....
     
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  5. *Paul*

    *Paul* Jesus loves you

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    I have already shown you once that desire and all nations are seperate words but you ignore the truth on this matter.

    Desire = chemdah

    Of all nations = gowy

    Jn 8v45: And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
     
  6. YmirGF

    YmirGF Bodhisattva

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    Well in all fairness Comprehend, they also state that the Bible is not worth the paper it is written on... unless of course it supports their ludicrous thinking, lol. I wonder how that works? Like, it is either valid or it isn't. Why aren't the parts they reference about their overly beloved Prophet Muhammed [pbuh} ever cited as the "changed" parts? I wonder if they realize it pretty well destroys their credibility?

    If anyone believes these references, I have a bridge in Arizona to sell 'em. Heck I'll even throw in Maitreya for a song. :D
     
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  7. Comprehend

    Comprehend Res Ipsa Loquitur

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    I meant to type "are not" not "is not" (see frubals) sheesh!:foot:
     
  8. *Paul*

    *Paul* Jesus loves you

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  9. Sahar

    Sahar Well-Known Member

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    Can you explain more what you mean by this? what's "their" "ludicrous thinking"?
     
  10. Islam

    Islam Member

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    I only have one thing to say to you as long as all you want to say is try to disrespect Islam.
    Shir Hashirim
    'I am Mohammad, Ahmad. Muqaffi, Hashir'
    Machamadim.. Machamad.. Mahamad. End of discussion.
    For the christians who cant accept the fact that Mohammed is mentioned by name in there book as I have shown because the message he preached wasnt that Jesus was God. Let me help you, if Jesus was God than he was a magott and a worm. Yes I said it, a magott. Why? Im not saying so, God is saying so in your own book.

    4 How then can man be righteous before God?
    Or how can he be pure who is born of a woman?
    5 If even the moon does not shine,
    And the stars are not pure in His sight, 6 How much less man, who is a maggot,
    And a son of man, who is a worm?”
    (Job 25:4-6 )

    So there you go, God is supposedly according to you calling himself a worm and a magott.
     
  11. YmirGF

    YmirGF Bodhisattva

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    See post #10 :rolleyes:
     
  12. gnostic

    gnostic The Lost One

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    Clearly, he is talking about a Chinese guy. Is Muhammad Chinese? :D
     
  13. Popeyesays

    Popeyesays Well-Known Member

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    The Divine MaIden is a metaphor for the word of God descended. The symbology is used in The Song of Solomon and the maiden is a strong symbol in Baha`i teachings as well:

    REVISED PROVISIONAL TRANSLATION (2) (16/7/95)

    *Lawh-i Halih, Halih, Halih, Ya Bisharat ("Hallelujah, Hallelujah, Hallelujah, O Glad Tidings!)*


    He is the Beloved One

    [1] The Maid of Eternity came from the Exalted Paradise;
    Hallelujah, Hallelujah, Hallelujah, O Glad Tidings!

    [2] With harp and with song, with crimson goblet she came;
    Hallelujah, Hallelujah, Hallelujah, O Glad Tidings!

    [3] With amorous glances, with the taste of mystical death--with dance and with song she came;
    Hallelujah, Hallelujah, Hallelujah, O Glad Tidings!

    [4] With musky tresses, with beauteous ruby lips--from nigh unto God, she came;
    Hallelujah, Hallelujah, Hallelujah, O Glad Tidings!

    [5] Two daggers her eyebrows, one hundred arrows from her eyelashes--to pierce our hearts she came;
    Hallelujah, Hallelujah, Hallelujah, O Glad Tidings!

    [6] All souls in her path, all hearts in her embrace--massacred when she came;
    Hallelujah, Hallelujah, Hallelujah, O Glad Tidings!

    [7] With snow-white hand, with raven locks--like the dragon of Moses she came;
    Hallelujah, Hallelujah, Hallelujah, O Glad Tidings!

    [8] This sweet Davidic voice, from the Divine Lote-Tree--with the Messianic Spirit she came;
    Hallelujah, Hallelujah, Hallelujah, O Glad Tidings!

    [9] With the allurement of fidelity, with the protection of Baha'-- from the Dawning-Place of "H" she came;
    Hallelujah, Hallelujah, Hallelujah, O Glad Tidings!

    [10] With guiding light from the morn of the Divine Encounter, with Mount Sinai she came;
    Hallelujah, Hallelujah, Hallelujah, O Glad Tidings!

    [11] This song of the spirit came to her lovers from the Nightingale of "No";
    Hallelujah, Hallelujah, Hallelujah, O Glad Tidings!

    [12] With the joyful tidings of reunion this Divine Maiden came from a branch of the Tree of Blessedness;
    Hallelujah, Hallelujah, Hallelujah, O Glad Tidings!

    [13] This annihilated lover, this earthly bird--she came as a sacrifice in the Path of the Beloved;
    Hallelujah, Hallelujah, Hallelujah, O Glad Tidings!

    [14] This sword of oppression, from the Throne of fidelity--she came upon the neck of the Beloved;
    Hallelujah, Hallelujah, Hallelujah, O Glad Tidings!

    [15] This sacred missive, with an Arab messenger--she came from the city of Sheba;
    Hallelujah, Hallelujah, Hallelujah, O Glad Tidings!

    [16] This Eternal Countenance, she came with snow-white hand from the Divine command;
    Hallelujah, Hallelujah, Hallelujah, O Glad Tidings!

    [17] This Hijazi Falcon came with Iraqi accents from the forearm of the King;
    Hallelujah, Hallelujah, Hallelujah, O Glad Tidings!

    [18] This Pardoning Visage, she came with fetching allure from the Court of Nearness;
    Hallelujah, Hallelujah, Hallelujah, O Glad Tidings!

    [19] This Nightingale of mystic meaning, she came from the sacred rose bush with the hand of *ecstasy*;
    Hallelujah, Hallelujah, Hallelujah, O Glad Tidings!

    [20] This luminous page, she came with light and splendour from the Midian of Spirit;
    Hallelujah, Hallelujah, Hallelujah, O Glad Tidings!

    [21] This Witness of the Omnipotent, this heady Wine of the Beloved--she came with the goblet of Sovereignty;
    Hallelujah, Hallelujah, Hallelujah, O Glad Tidings!

    [22] That essence of the Beauty of the True One, that jewel of the Glory of the True One--she came with the Most Great Sign;
    Hallelujah, Hallelujah, Hallelujah, O Glad Tidings!

    [23] That Countenance of the Desired One, that Face of the Adored One--she came with the Most-Supreme Mercy;
    Hallelujah, Hallelujah, Hallelujah, O Glad Tidings!

    [24] The souls to her reunion, the hearts to her Bestowal--as the Most Exalted Lord she hath come!
    Hallelujah, Hallelujah, Hallelujah, O Glad Tidings!
    [25] This Wondrous Remembrance hath come from the Eternal Rosegarden that the lovers of the beauty of the Adored One, hearts and souls burning with love, might, in utmost tranquillity, busy themselves with these wondrous new melodies; that perchance, attracted thereby, the inmates of the Kaaba of gnosis might be shaken with ecstasy and remember their divine and sacred homeland.

    The seductiveness of nearness to the Word of God is well described in this shorter tablet and in The Seven Valleys and The Four Valleys and in the Tablet of the Holy Mariner.

    Regards,
    Scott
     
  14. Islam

    Islam Member

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    gnostic, if the verse told you he is Mohammed you would have still tried to find a way to not believe in it. Oh wait, it did say he was Mohammed. Just do yourself a favour and read the Quran, for knowledge at least, and read Mohammeds biography to know who he was. I suggest Muhammed his life based on the earliest sources written by Martin Lings. You can find it on amazon. Be of those who win, win with knowledge, a heaven whos wide is the skies and the earth.
     
  15. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    once and for all...and i've shown this before Islam.

    Shir HaShirim does not mention anyone by the name of Muhammed in it's text. there is a word that w/ a little stretch of the imagination and really really bad pronounciation of the hebrew kinda sorta sounds like his name, but it is not talking about a person, it's talking about G-d in that particular verse.

    so unless you are going to claim that YOUR prophet is G-d...

    it must be nice to cafeteria, pick and choose, from other people's holy text and then when it doesn't fit you can just say, "oh that's wrong cause it doesn't back up the Quran"

    what a joke.
     
  16. Snowbear

    Snowbear Nita Okhata

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    LOL - Why should Christians accept what is not there?

    I too think it's ludicrous how a few people are continually picking and choosing random verses, twisting and distorting them in an effort to preach to Christians how rotten their Savior is and how holy the false prophet of Islam is :rolleyes:

    Even better for ludicrousness is when they use these same twisted verses and in the same breath tell us how corrupted the Book is that those verses came from.
     
  17. gnostic

    gnostic The Lost One

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    I seriously don't care what Muhammad looks like. And I don't care what Jesus look like too. Or any of the prophets, for that matter.

    Is it really worth anything to know what the prophet look like?

    I don't see any name, except Solomon and Amminadib. I don't see any prophecy in any of the verses or chapters. It look more like you twisting the words to mean Muhammad than anything else. You are no better than Christians who claim they can see face of Christ on the shroud, cloud and stone, or the Virgin Mary crying on shapeless object, etc.
     
  18. Islam

    Islam Member

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    Yes there is, Hashirim and Machamad
     
  19. gnostic

    gnostic The Lost One

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    It still doesn't say Muhammad.

    I seriously don't care what Muhammad look like. I also don't care if he, Jesus, Abraham and Moses are good-looking or not.

    You (not you personally, but Muslims in general) and your prophet seemed obssessed on looks. Such vanity is pointless in religion, don't you think?

    I think the Song of Songs are merely writing of Solomon's time, and had nothing to do with any prophecy of any Jewish, Christian or Muslim prophet. You are seeing more in the poems than there really are, just as you see more in a few quoted passages in Deuteronomy and Isaiah.
     
  20. Islam

    Islam Member

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    "...and the book itself as an allegory depicting in great detail the experiences of the nation in its relations with its God from the Exodus down to *THE COMING OF THE MESSIAH AND THE BUILDING OF THE THIRD TEMPLE.* This in general is also the interpretation of the Midrash Rabbah and such famous scholars as Saadia ben Joseph, Rashi, and Ibn Ezra, although they differ considerably among themselves in details."
    [The Interpreter's Bible Encyclopedia]


    This is what your scholars are saying not me not Mohammed not Muslims, your scholars! Btw have you ever read the Quran (just curious) ?
     
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