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Differences In How the Mystical Experience is Described (Mysticism DIR)

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
For quite some time, there has been a debate among scholars of mysticism over whether or not there is a single core mystical experience. The notion that there is indeed a single core experience has been called "perennialism". The notion that there is no single core experience has been called "constructism".

Current science on the subject strongly -- but not yet conclusively -- supports the perennialist position that there is a single core experience. If the science proves conclusive, what would account for the differences in ways mystics talk about their experiences?

I can think of three things that might account for at least some of the differences.

First, language and culture. Obviously, a mystic like the Buddha living around 500 BC on the Indian subcontinent would have a very different culture and language from a mystic like Saint John of the Cross living about 1500 AD on the Spanish peninsula. Even if the two had the exact same experience, they would not have been likely to describe their experience in quite the same terms due to cultural and language differences.

Second, differences in emphasis. Different mystics tend to emphasize different aspects of their experience while perhaps discounting other aspects. It's as if they all see the same tree, but one focuses on the shape of the leaves, the other on the quality of the bark.

Last, differences in observational skills. It is sometimes assumed that all mystics are equal when it comes to how observant they are. But why assume that? Isn't it more likely that they are unequal? An old joke has it that if ten people witness the same car accident, there will be eleven versions of exactly what happened. Why should we not expect something similar to occur with mystics? Some might very well be better observers than others.
 

David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member

"If the science proves conclusive, what would account for the differences in ways mystics talk about their experiences?"

Well what ever becomes "science fact" will be challenged by mystics.. Just as mystics have challenged religious fact..

So the real question should be is scientific empericism identical experience? Science needs to begin doing a scienctific study of science to objectively understand what is science exactly. Then we can do a study of the study, then a study of the study of the study....... ad infintium. We should have a completely rationized understanding by the end of time.

That probably is what a mystic would say but we need to do a scholarly study to emperically prove and then it can be submited into a scholarly journal awards handed out and tenure granted and completely rarional books written in the topic.
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Jumi

Well-Known Member
Yes, I'd say we can easily identify some of the same things described by Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Pagan and non-Religious mystics. I'm not quite convinced that we can find ways to trigger the experiences in a scientific, laboratory environment like we can with meditation studies.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Isn't it more likely that they are unequal? An old joke has it that if ten people witness the same car accident, there will be eleven versions of exactly what happened. Why should we not expect something similar to occur with mystics? Some might very well be better observers than others.
I agree with everything you have posted in this OP. I'd only offer to clarify in this context here that rather than seeing this a matter of better observers, it's really a matter of "better" or more inclusive frameworks used for the translation of the data. If the context of one's reality for instance does not use scientific or rational systems as a framework of reality, then how they translate their experience will not utilize that. If they use a systems of mythic forms, of gods and goddesses, or spirits, then that will be how they take the same mystical experience and talk about it.

It's basically the stages of development where we are at, which will largely determine the ways we frame these things. At the core of it, when you peel back the symbolism, to find the meaning apart from the symbol, it is the same state experiences, such as "timeless" "eternal" "infinite" etc., as you rightly pointed out.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
debate among scholars

Scholars love to debate.

Even if the two had the exact same experience, they would not have been likely to describe their experience in quite the same terms due to cultural and language differences.

The East has a rich vocabulary having terms like fana, baqa, samadhi, "states" and "stages" of the path and so forth. The West's vocabulary is much more limited.

Second, differences in emphasis. Different mystics tend to emphasize different aspects of their experience while perhaps discounting other aspects. It's as if they all see the same tree, but one focuses on the shape of the leaves, the other on the quality of the bark.

Fair enough.

Some might very well be better observers than others.

Again in the East (I'm getting repetitious), the difference between "salik", grounded and "majzoob" divorced from the outside world. It is of the later that this poem of Rumi's speaks
The Man of God is drunken without wine
The Man of God is sated without meat
The Man of God is rapturous, amazed
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
I just came across this on Facebook:

“To me, religions are like languages: no language is true or false; all languages are of human origin; each language reflects and shapes the civilization that speaks it; there are things you can say in one language that you cannot say as well in another; and the more languages you learn, the more nuanced your understanding of life. Judaism is my mother tongue yet in matters of the spirit I strive to be multilingual. In the end, however, the deepest language of the soul is silence.”

Rabbi Rami Shapiro
 
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