Differences between Watergate investigation and 1/6 probe

[Truthseeker]

Watergate 50th meets Jan. 6. Common thread: Thirst for power

The Watergate committee of four Democrats and three Republicans was formed by a unanimous vote in the Senate, unheard of today on almost any issue of substance. It was charged with probing the Watergate affair and “all other illegal, improper, or unethical conduct” in the 1972 campaign...

The heroes of Watergate, Bernstein now says, were not primarily the journalists who exposed Nixon’s misdeeds or the Democrats who led the charge but “Republicans who had the courage to say this is not about ideology, this is about illegality.”

My take: This is not quite on the mark. Today the public can't even agree on facts any more depending on what party you endorse. In turn, Republicans are running scared because of their desire of being elected, especially in the primaries. 50 years ago, the public agreed on the facts much more than today. In was in the interests of Republicans back then to get elected back then, just as now. But they knew that the agreed on facts should be endorsed in their own interests. I also think that morality probably has eroded for all of us over the 50 years.

My question: Why can't we agree on the facts? Has morality eroded over 50 years?

 

[Lyndon]

The difference now is Republicans don't believe in the constitution, don't believe in following the law, have become the party of fascism.

 

[Twilight Hue]

The difference now is Republicans don't believe in the constitution, don't believe in following the law, have become the party of fascism.

It's pathetically sad that Democrats had to turn to democratic centralism to address said issues employing the Leninist playbook.

 

[Heyo]

My question: Why can't we agree on the facts? Has morality eroded over 50 years?

It is a bit of moral erosion but it is more the result of optimisation. When politicians discovered that they could lie without losing voters they did. When corruption became legal they became openly corrupt. When they found out how to manipulate elections, they did.
And as more and more politicians were successful in denying reality, more and more people try to copy their tactics.
But that isn't a new phenomenon. It is only new for the last fifty years. The church and rulers all over the world used the tactic and in the early to mid 20th century it was formalised.

Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur

 

[Lyndon]

It's pathetically sad that Democrats had to turn to democratic centralism to address said issues employing the Leninist playbook.

You're always justifying Republican fascism and ridiculously calling the other side communist, get a life

 

[Stevicus]

My question: Why can't we agree on the facts? Has morality eroded over 50 years?

Back in those days, there were fewer media outlets, no cellphones, no social media, no internet. It was also before the Fairness Doctrine was abolished, and unlike today, back in those days journalists generally knew the difference between fact and opinion. Editorials were usually on the back page of newspapers, not the front page.

There were tabloids and "fake news" like the National Enquirer, but they were pretty much scorned and mocked because they had nothing but gossip. People took a more serious approach to news and current events back then - before the age of celebrity worship, consumerist fluff, pseudo-patriotism, and hucksterism which descended during the Reagan era (which was also about the same time Trump was made into a media darling).

Also, the counter-culture at the time was probably much more progressive and liberal than they are now - in addition to being anti-establishment. They tended to see Nixon and his ilk as representatives of the establishment (or "the swamp" as it's known in today's parlance). Nowadays, that seems to have reversed. The previous counter-culture eventually transformed into the establishment, while the previous establishment became the new counter-culture.

 

[Twilight Hue]

You're always justifying Republican fascism and ridiculously calling the other side communist, get a life

Can't stand the truth obviously.

 

[wellwisher]

Watergate 50th meets Jan. 6. Common thread: Thirst for power

The Watergate committee of four Democrats and three Republicans was formed by a unanimous vote in the Senate, unheard of today on almost any issue of substance. It was charged with probing the Watergate affair and “all other illegal, improper, or unethical conduct” in the 1972 campaign...

The heroes of Watergate, Bernstein now says, were not primarily the journalists who exposed Nixon’s misdeeds or the Democrats who led the charge but “Republicans who had the courage to say this is not about ideology, this is about illegality.”

My take: This is not quite on the mark. Today the public can't even agree on facts any more depending on what party you endorse. In turn, Republicans are running scared because of their desire of being elected, especially in the primaries. 50 years ago, the public agreed on the facts much more than today. In was in the interests of Republicans back then to get elected back then, just as now. But they knew that the agreed on facts should be endorsed in their own interests. I also think that morality probably has eroded for all of us over the 50 years.

My question: Why can't we agree on the facts? Has morality eroded over 50 years?

A better comparison would be Watergate run by Nixon and the Russian Collusion Delusion coup run by the Democrats. The collusion delusion scam was when the Democrats tried to undermine an opposite candidate and then overthrow a dually elected President using false intel bought by Hillary from foreign agents.

Both involved spying, however, the Collusion Delusion was a pretense to not only spy on an opposition candidate, but the Democrats used government agencies like the FBI and CIA to continue this spying and misinformation scam during a presidency to end a presidency. This was way worse than anything Nixon did. Nixon thought about using the FBI and CIA, but he was not as corrupt as contemporary Democrats, who actually did it.

Another difference were the guilty, in the collusion delusion, have not yet been tried and punished for their crimes, which were far worse than Watergate. Watergate is no longer the litmus test for corruption in US politics and government.

The same cast of shady characters, who lied for several years to show off their lying skills, now lead the lopsided kangaroo court of 1/6. This kangaroo court is not being represented by both parties, since a fair trail, with both sides having witnesses, who are not rubber stamping, would not end in the same way. If you leave out all the data, you can lead people to draw the wrong conclusions. Fairness and all the facts does not benefit the con artists in power, which is why they have dismissed honest Republicans.

Say, for the sake of argument, Trump had more time to investigate the collusion scam and had been successful and was able to delay Biden becoming president, until a Mueller scale investigation, into the election fraud and the collusion delusion was completed. With Trump still at the helm, the USA and the current state of the world would be different.

The USA and the world may not have been led down the path of social and economic anarchy. Trump was much better at the economy, and Putin never made waves, until Democrats were in office; Obama for Crimea and Biden for Ukraine. Biden and Obama pushed the reset button with Putin, not Trump.

Gasoline prices would be lower at $2-3/gallon since Trump liked the idea of American energy independence and America as a net exporter of gas. This US gas surplus would have buffered Europe. Trump could also get more cooperation from the the CEO's of the free market to fix things, that resulted from the Democrat led Covid lockdowns; broke the supply and labor chains.

This group of Democrat leaders have to be the most incompetent bunch in the history of the USA. They are only good at running scams and lying to the camera. This may be why they have gravitated to the circus of public opinion, since 2016, to cover their incompetence in practical matters. Don't let the con artist fool you since they will have their day in court but as defendants, after the midterms, since practical skills is what the American people will vote for, as well as wrongs to be made right.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

A better comparison would be Watergate run by Nixon and the Russian Collusion Delusion coup run by the Democrats. The collusion delusion scam was when the Democrats tried to undermine an opposite candidate and then overthrow a dually elected President using false intel bought by Hillary from foreign agents.

Both involved spying, however, the Collusion Delusion was a pretense to not only spy on an opposition candidate, but the Democrats used government agencies like the FBI and CIA to continue this spying and misinformation scam during a presidency to end a presidency. This was way worse than anything Nixon did. Nixon thought about using the FBI and CIA, but he was not as corrupt as contemporary Democrats, who actually did it.

Another difference were the guilty, in the collusion delusion, have not yet been tried and punished for their crimes, which were far worse than Watergate. Watergate is no longer the litmus test for corruption in US politics and government.

The same cast of shady characters, who lied for several years to show off their lying skills, now lead the lopsided kangaroo court of 1/6. This kangaroo court is not being represented by both parties, since a fair trail, with both sides having witnesses, who are not rubber stamping, would not end in the same way. If you leave out all the data, you can lead people to draw the wrong conclusions. Fairness and all the facts does not benefit the con artists in power, which is why they have dismissed honest Republicans.

Say, for the sake of argument, Trump had more time to investigate the collusion scam and had been successful and was able to delay Biden becoming president, until a Mueller scale investigation, into the election fraud and the collusion delusion was completed. With Trump still at the helm, the USA and the current state of the world would be different.

The USA and the world may not have been led down the path of social and economic anarchy. Trump was much better at the economy, and Putin never made waves, until Democrats were in office; Obama for Crimea and Biden for Ukraine. Biden and Obama pushed the reset button with Putin, not Trump.

Gasoline prices would be lower at $2-3/gallon since Trump liked the idea of American energy independence and America as a net exporter of gas. This US gas surplus would have buffered Europe. Trump could also get more cooperation from the the CEO's of the free market to fix things, that resulted from the Democrat led Covid lockdowns; broke the supply and labor chains.

This group of Democrat leaders have to be the most incompetent bunch in the history of the USA. They are only good at running scams and lying to the camera. This may be why they have gravitated to the circus of public opinion, since 2016, to cover their incompetence in practical matters. Don't let the con artist fool you since they will have their day in court but as defendants, after the midterms, since practical skills is what the American people will vote for, as well as wrongs to be made right.

You donated to Trump's Election Defense Fund, didn't you?

 

[Mock Turtle]

A better comparison would be Watergate run by Nixon and the Russian Collusion Delusion coup run by the Democrats. The collusion delusion scam was when the Democrats tried to undermine an opposite candidate and then overthrow a dually elected President using false intel bought by Hillary from foreign agents.

Both involved spying, however, the Collusion Delusion was a pretense to not only spy on an opposition candidate, but the Democrats used government agencies like the FBI and CIA to continue this spying and misinformation scam during a presidency to end a presidency. This was way worse than anything Nixon did. Nixon thought about using the FBI and CIA, but he was not as corrupt as contemporary Democrats, who actually did it.

Another difference were the guilty, in the collusion delusion, have not yet been tried and punished for their crimes, which were far worse than Watergate. Watergate is no longer the litmus test for corruption in US politics and government.

The same cast of shady characters, who lied for several years to show off their lying skills, now lead the lopsided kangaroo court of 1/6. This kangaroo court is not being represented by both parties, since a fair trail, with both sides having witnesses, who are not rubber stamping, would not end in the same way. If you leave out all the data, you can lead people to draw the wrong conclusions. Fairness and all the facts does not benefit the con artists in power, which is why they have dismissed honest Republicans.

Say, for the sake of argument, Trump had more time to investigate the collusion scam and had been successful and was able to delay Biden becoming president, until a Mueller scale investigation, into the election fraud and the collusion delusion was completed. With Trump still at the helm, the USA and the current state of the world would be different.

The USA and the world may not have been led down the path of social and economic anarchy. Trump was much better at the economy, and Putin never made waves, until Democrats were in office; Obama for Crimea and Biden for Ukraine. Biden and Obama pushed the reset button with Putin, not Trump.
Gasoline prices would be lower at $2-3/gallon since Trump liked the idea of American energy independence and America as a net exporter of gas. This US gas surplus would have buffered Europe. Trump could also get more cooperation from the the CEO's of the free market to fix things, that resulted from the Democrat led Covid lockdowns; broke the supply and labor chains.

This group of Democrat leaders have to be the most incompetent bunch in the history of the USA. They are only good at running scams and lying to the camera. This may be why they have gravitated to the circus of public opinion, since 2016, to cover their incompetence in practical matters. Don't let the con artist fool you since they will have their day in court but as defendants, after the midterms, since practical skills is what the American people will vote for, as well as wrongs to be made right.

I can see why we never get on.

 

[Lyndon]

Its mind boggling the level of delusion among right wing Trump supporters, they don't accept facts and seem to feed off of ignorance

 

[F1fan]

My question: Why can't we agree on the facts? Has morality eroded over 50 years?

I think a lot of what has happened with conservatism today stems back to creationism. Creationism is a religious framework that has been successful in ignoring facts and science for a non-factual and irrational alternative. As Reagan brought politics in collaboration with Falwell's evangelicalism the politics could see how useful a false narrative has been to convince its followers. With Gingrich came the refusal to cooperate with Democrats and the insistence that Democrats were the political enemy. With Bush and 9-11 came some degree of consolidation of patriotism for a decade. But then the Obama years and the end of Iraq as a valid war, and a serious black eye on Republicans, came the Tea Party and it's extreme idealism. The dilemma for the Tea Party was it's idealism, that while seemed valid, just did not account for the real diversity of interests in the USA. The libertarian view wants an ideal freedom that requires a level of personal responsibility that just doesn't exist in America. This idealism of some absolute freedom festered into MAGA and Trump's exaggerated claim that government is bad, and they are above the law.

The MAGA framework cannot work if they accept facts. They think they are above the law, above meanings, above facts, all as if they are gods. The thing is many of them know what the facts are. They just disregard them and show contempt just as they show contempt for anyone who accepts facts. This is a religious/political cult. Look at the Faith and Freedom Coalition. Look at the claim of God and Guns as a mantra.

This is a movement that has combined the irrational beliefs of religion for the sake of politics, and doing this they can justify anything, and abandon any morals, to attain their ends. This makes them very dangerous, as the Jan 6 insurrection showed us all.

 

[Polymath257]

A better comparison would be Watergate run by Nixon and the Russian Collusion Delusion coup run by the Democrats. The collusion delusion scam was when the Democrats tried to undermine an opposite candidate and then overthrow a dually elected President using false intel bought by Hillary from foreign agents.

Both involved spying, however, the Collusion Delusion was a pretense to not only spy on an opposition candidate, but the Democrats used government agencies like the FBI and CIA to continue this spying and misinformation scam during a presidency to end a presidency. This was way worse than anything Nixon did. Nixon thought about using the FBI and CIA, but he was not as corrupt as contemporary Democrats, who actually did it.

Or, it was a legitimate investigation into charges of corruption in a sitting president collaborating with a foreign power to influence an election.

Whether it was ultimately substantiated or not, it was a legitimate thing to investigate.

Another difference were the guilty, in the collusion delusion, have not yet been tried and punished for their crimes, which were far worse than Watergate. Watergate is no longer the litmus test for corruption in US politics and government.

What actual crimes? The Steele dossier, even if false, was still not a crime.

The same cast of shady characters, who lied for several years to show off their lying skills, now lead the lopsided kangaroo court of 1/6. This kangaroo court is not being represented by both parties, since a fair trail, with both sides having witnesses, who are not rubber stamping, would not end in the same way. If you leave out all the data, you can lead people to draw the wrong conclusions. Fairness and all the facts does not benefit the con artists in power, which is why they have dismissed honest Republicans.

The committee only has a couple of Republicans because the other refused to participate. They were invited and refused because they don't want to hold Trump accountable for his actions. We saw the same thing in both impeachments.

Say, for the sake of argument, Trump had more time to investigate the collusion scam and had been successful and was able to delay Biden becoming president, until a Mueller scale investigation, into the election fraud and the collusion delusion was completed. With Trump still at the helm, the USA and the current state of the world would be different.

No kidding. We would now be living in a dictatorship.

The USA and the world may not have been led down the path of social and economic anarchy. Trump was much better at the economy, and Putin never made waves, until Democrats were in office; Obama for Crimea and Biden for Ukraine. Biden and Obama pushed the reset button with Putin, not Trump.

Putin didn't 'make waves' because Trump was working for the break up of NATO as well as giving Putin inside info.. The funding to the Ukraine was held for the idiotic reason that an investigation into Biden's son didn't go the way Trump wanted. Why would Putin want to mess that up? He was getting everything he wanted.

Now, we have someone who actually says no to Putin, so he went to war with Ukraine (which was planned, clearly, since the invasion of Crimea).

Gasoline prices would be lower at $2-3/gallon since Trump liked the idea of American energy independence and America as a net exporter of gas. This US gas surplus would have buffered Europe. Trump could also get more cooperation from the the CEO's of the free market to fix things, that resulted from the Democrat led Covid lockdowns; broke the supply and labor chains.

We are paying at the pump now for Trumps inept handling of Russia.

This group of Democrat leaders have to be the most incompetent bunch in the history of the USA. They are only good at running scams and lying to the camera. This may be why they have gravitated to the circus of public opinion, since 2016, to cover their incompetence in practical matters. Don't let the con artist fool you since they will have their day in court but as defendants, after the midterms, since practical skills is what the American people will vote for, as well as wrongs to be made right.

Really? More incompetent than Greene, Getz, Palin, Trump? Hardly. They wouldn't know a fact if it hit them on the head.

Trump actually tried to overthrow an election that, by all legitimate accounts, was free and fair. The only thing is that Trump lost. So he lied to his followers about fraud. He lied to his followers about where their money was going. He lied to his followers about what Pence could legitimately do. And when other *Republicans* pointed out that Trump had legitimately lost, he lied to his followers again, sending his minions out to level death threats to those who stood up to Trump and his treason.

 

[Subduction Zone]

It's pathetically sad that Democrats had to turn to democratic centralism to address said issues employing the Leninist playbook.

Sorry, but that false accusation does not appear to make any sense.

Here is a simple test:

Did Joe Biden win fairly and squarely?

 

[Polymath257]

It is a bit of moral erosion but it is more the result of optimisation. When politicians discovered that they could lie without losing voters they did. When corruption became legal they became openly corrupt. When they found out how to manipulate elections, they did.
And as more and more politicians were successful in denying reality, more and more people try to copy their tactics.
But that isn't a new phenomenon. It is only new for the last fifty years. The church and rulers all over the world used the tactic and in the early to mid 20th century it was formalised.

Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur

And don't forget the use of gerrymandering to ensure they have a majority of candidates from each state even if the actual numbers go the other way. And the multiple attempts (admitted) to suppress votes in areas that tend to vote against them.

Citizen's United made it so money was more important than votes.

And the laps of the Fairness Doctrine guaranteed extremism and lies. The internet only made this easier.

 

[metis]

My question: Why can't we agree on the facts? Has morality eroded over 50 years?

It defectively has, as we've abandoned the old English adage that "It's not whether you win or lose but how you play the game" to now have Lombardy's "Show me a good loser and I'll show you a loser".

 

[metis]

A better comparison would be Watergate run by Nixon and the Russian Collusion Delusion coup run by the Democrats. The collusion delusion scam was when the Democrats tried to undermine an opposite candidate and then overthrow a dually elected President using false intel bought by Hillary from foreign agents.

Both involved spying, however, the Collusion Delusion was a pretense to not only spy on an opposition candidate, but the Democrats used government agencies like the FBI and CIA to continue this spying and misinformation scam during a presidency to end a presidency. This was way worse than anything Nixon did. Nixon thought about using the FBI and CIA, but he was not as corrupt as contemporary Democrats, who actually did it.

Another difference were the guilty, in the collusion delusion, have not yet been tried and punished for their crimes, which were far worse than Watergate. Watergate is no longer the litmus test for corruption in US politics and government.

The same cast of shady characters, who lied for several years to show off their lying skills, now lead the lopsided kangaroo court of 1/6. This kangaroo court is not being represented by both parties, since a fair trail, with both sides having witnesses, who are not rubber stamping, would not end in the same way. If you leave out all the data, you can lead people to draw the wrong conclusions. Fairness and all the facts does not benefit the con artists in power, which is why they have dismissed honest Republicans.

Say, for the sake of argument, Trump had more time to investigate the collusion scam and had been successful and was able to delay Biden becoming president, until a Mueller scale investigation, into the election fraud and the collusion delusion was completed. With Trump still at the helm, the USA and the current state of the world would be different.

The USA and the world may not have been led down the path of social and economic anarchy. Trump was much better at the economy, and Putin never made waves, until Democrats were in office; Obama for Crimea and Biden for Ukraine. Biden and Obama pushed the reset button with Putin, not Trump.

Gasoline prices would be lower at $2-3/gallon since Trump liked the idea of American energy independence and America as a net exporter of gas. This US gas surplus would have buffered Europe. Trump could also get more cooperation from the the CEO's of the free market to fix things, that resulted from the Democrat led Covid lockdowns; broke the supply and labor chains.

This group of Democrat leaders have to be the most incompetent bunch in the history of the USA. They are only good at running scams and lying to the camera. This may be why they have gravitated to the circus of public opinion, since 2016, to cover their incompetence in practical matters. Don't let the con artist fool you since they will have their day in court but as defendants, after the midterms, since practical skills is what the American people will vote for, as well as wrongs to be made right.

Simply put, most of the above is nothing short of sheer partisan nonsense.

 

[Subduction Zone]

A better comparison would be Watergate run by Nixon and the Russian Collusion Delusion coup run by the Democrats. The collusion delusion scam was when the Democrats tried to undermine an opposite candidate and then overthrow a dually elected President using false intel bought by Hillary from foreign agents.

Both involved spying, however, the Collusion Delusion was a pretense to not only spy on an opposition candidate, but the Democrats used government agencies like the FBI and CIA to continue this spying and misinformation scam during a presidency to end a presidency. This was way worse than anything Nixon did. Nixon thought about using the FBI and CIA, but he was not as corrupt as contemporary Democrats, who actually did it.

Another difference were the guilty, in the collusion delusion, have not yet been tried and punished for their crimes, which were far worse than Watergate. Watergate is no longer the litmus test for corruption in US politics and government.

The same cast of shady characters, who lied for several years to show off their lying skills, now lead the lopsided kangaroo court of 1/6. This kangaroo court is not being represented by both parties, since a fair trail, with both sides having witnesses, who are not rubber stamping, would not end in the same way. If you leave out all the data, you can lead people to draw the wrong conclusions. Fairness and all the facts does not benefit the con artists in power, which is why they have dismissed honest Republicans.

Say, for the sake of argument, Trump had more time to investigate the collusion scam and had been successful and was able to delay Biden becoming president, until a Mueller scale investigation, into the election fraud and the collusion delusion was completed. With Trump still at the helm, the USA and the current state of the world would be different.

The USA and the world may not have been led down the path of social and economic anarchy. Trump was much better at the economy, and Putin never made waves, until Democrats were in office; Obama for Crimea and Biden for Ukraine. Biden and Obama pushed the reset button with Putin, not Trump.

Gasoline prices would be lower at $2-3/gallon since Trump liked the idea of American energy independence and America as a net exporter of gas. This US gas surplus would have buffered Europe. Trump could also get more cooperation from the the CEO's of the free market to fix things, that resulted from the Democrat led Covid lockdowns; broke the supply and labor chains.

This group of Democrat leaders have to be the most incompetent bunch in the history of the USA. They are only good at running scams and lying to the camera. This may be why they have gravitated to the circus of public opinion, since 2016, to cover their incompetence in practical matters. Don't let the con artist fool you since they will have their day in court but as defendants, after the midterms, since practical skills is what the American people will vote for, as well as wrongs to be made right.

There is quite a bit of ignorance and denial in this post. And it was already dealt with for the most part by @Polymath257 .

But I have a couple of points to add. First off Trump was largely to blame for the Russian investigation. By the way, it is not wise to call it a "hoax" since that puts a burden of proof upon you. Were the Democrats wrong? Yes they were. But once the investigation began false evidence was not used. All evidentiary claims, including those of some of the people that Hillary and others relied upon were investigated. That is how we know that some of those claims were false. And Trump was never found innocent. In fact he could have been charged with obstruction. Also since he openly stated at one point that he would collude with the Russians if given a chance can one blame the Democrats for believing that he did collude?

Just as a reminder, Trump was found not to have colluded by the investigation that you attack. He was found to have obstructed the investigation. The counter claims of Republican supporters against Hillary have been shown to be as weak as the claims against Trump.

On to the oil claims. Our current oil supplies and wells are close to being enough to cover US demand. But oil is priced internationally. We can't change the pricing structure of oil that easily. What you propose oddly enough is socialism. Do you want the US government to take over oil production in the US? The small amount that we could possibly export, after you take out our own usage, would barely dent global demand. You might want to study the economics of oil production a bit.

 

[Heyo]

And don't forget the use of gerrymandering to ensure they have a majority of candidates from each state even if the actual numbers go the other way. And the multiple attempts (admitted) to suppress votes in areas that tend to vote against them.

Citizen's United made it so money was more important than votes.

And the laps of the Fairness Doctrine guaranteed extremism and lies. The internet only made this easier.

Yes, those are real examples but I have a suspicion that the mantra, created by psychologists, philosophers and quantum physicists, that "perception creates reality" has something to with it. It's the modern form of magical thinking and it is wide spread. And in the modern, very abstract world, it takes a long time until reality bites those people in the backside.

 

[Stevicus]

Another thing occurs to me in regards to comparing the divisions of today versus what they were 50 years ago. Back then, World War 2 was more recent in people's memories, and there was still some semblance of a spirit of cooperation and bipartisanship for the sake of the country as a whole. Though the ideological differences back then were much as they are today, they weren't quite as entrenched.

Now, we've had 50 years since then, along with a sharp rise in yuppies and nimbys, as well as a far more predatory capitalist establishment and a more cold-blooded, selfish, greedy culture overall. George Carlin described it best when he said "They went from 'All You Need is Love' to 'He Who Dies With the Most Toys Wins'." That's the key difference between then and now, and if anyone is looking for explanations as to how things went wrong, that's the area to look.