1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Difference between

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Unveiled Artist, May 12, 2021.

  1. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    33,350
    Ratings:
    +11,696
    Religion:
    Inner Child Healing
    I couldn't figure what to title this.

    As I was reading another thread, and threads throughout the centuries I've been here, one theme comes up among less hardcore religious themselves and non-believers.

    It's the idea that a religious cannot say the other person is wrong about his or her faith just what's right for them.

    I've always found this a bit odd.

    For example, take the scenario of a client and therapist:

    The client (say John) has delusions.
    It is up to the therapist (Anna) to address John's symptoms as a cause of her client's delusions.

    Anna does not tell John he is wrong. Of course from his perspective he is right. That is fine.

    1. My question is, why can't Anna believe John is wrong despite knowing John's delusions is what is true to him?

    A religious person can tell someone else they are wrong about their theology AND still maintain that that theology is right for them.

    It's not being rude in a discussion or debate. It's just saying that the religious person's criteria of how he sees reality is in conflict with the other (you can't have god and no god at the same time; you can't have heaven and reincarnation at the same time).

    2. Why can't all religious and non-religious say "you are wrong about your theology" without using that statement to discredit what's right for that other person?

    I don't believe god exist. John does. I can tell John he is wrong about his theology (in this example), but that doesn't mean it is wrong for him. I'm just being honest our two beliefs contradict each other and that's not my view of reality. Saying you're wrong isn't a bad thing as long as you don't discredit another person's conviction by saying it.

    3. Why do many treat it as such?

    EDIT

    A parent and teacher tells their child or student they are wrong, but in a way of constructive criticism. A friend may tell another friend they are wrong to show them where they are in error without discrediting the person with whom made the error (whether it was an actual error or mistake).

    Whether one uses the words/phrase "you are wrong" is personal preference, but in context is the same; why do people get so offended by it and likewise why can't they say it?
     
    #1 Unveiled Artist, May 12, 2021
    Last edited: May 12, 2021
  2. Jimmy

    Jimmy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2019
    Messages:
    2,628
    Ratings:
    +859
    It’s called respect
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 2
  3. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    33,350
    Ratings:
    +11,696
    Religion:
    Inner Child Healing
    Expand...

    Saying you're wrong isn't disrespectful, if that's what you're getting at. Teachers do it as so do parents. It depends on the context not the words.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
  4. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    33,350
    Ratings:
    +11,696
    Religion:
    Inner Child Healing
    Good example.

    i.e. I believe in the trinity and you don't. (I believe) you are wrong in your interpretation.

    Between strangers, either party can take that as an offense. If it's someone you know, even less so. A friend maybe not. But the point is the same.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  5. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    33,350
    Ratings:
    +11,696
    Religion:
    Inner Child Healing
    Wow, Jimmy. That's totally uncalled for. When discussing respect.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    33,350
    Ratings:
    +11,696
    Religion:
    Inner Child Healing
    Yes. The phrasing and words can be cruel, but the point isn't the preference in wording, it's saying the other is incorrect and you are correct based on your worldview in conflict with the others.

    How you say it depends on the person, culture, context, and relationship (as described above) not on whether you say "you are wrong" or "you are," I don't know, "incorrect."

    Take another phrase: you know, you're wrong about "that."

    These are referring to what the person says not the person herself. Hopefully, it is received that way.
     
  7. Jimmy

    Jimmy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2019
    Messages:
    2,628
    Ratings:
    +859
    If you think that way I guess you could even say “what you believe is wrong for you, I suggest you find the right way.
     
  8. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    33,350
    Ratings:
    +11,696
    Religion:
    Inner Child Healing
    Kinda. "I believe you are wrong and I am right; and, we each follow the path that's right for us."

    So, I can say "You are wrong about god, and, I respect that each person has the right to their own belief."

    It sounds cruel, but I hope you get the point behind it.
     
  9. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    33,350
    Ratings:
    +11,696
    Religion:
    Inner Child Healing
    You lost me I'm afraid. Could you sum up what you're saying?
     
  10. MatthewA

    MatthewA Active Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2021
    Messages:
    775
    Ratings:
    +607
    Religion:
    Christian
    First Amendment

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

    Sure I will try, Unveiled Artist,

    ~ People can have religious claims about whatever religion it is they choose to believe in. You can tell that person you believe they are wrong if you desire to. But that doesn't mean the person has to changed their established foundation in order to please another human being. If love is not possible even through differences what use is love in the first place?
     
  11. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    33,350
    Ratings:
    +11,696
    Religion:
    Inner Child Healing
    It's not about changing their beliefs, just saying they are wrong in light of conflicting views of reality. The preference in words may sound insulting, but underneath it doesn't need to be so.

    If I say you're wrong about god's existence, I'm talking about your belief that contradicts how I see things (the argument) not you personally. Unless everything is true, I don't see a problem saying it.
     
  12. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

    Joined:
    May 1, 2017
    Messages:
    4,231
    Ratings:
    +1,860
    If there are self evident truthes then we are all responsible to those truthes. Thus correcting someone is justified.

    If no truth is necessarily self evident then we must painfully struggle in the dark. And we have no right to correct others.

    I consider all moral values to be self evident. All moral values are objectively true and are predicated on discretion and deserve. Having the right moral values produces healthy relationships and the end result is love. For instance the quality of honesty is about telling people what they deserve to hear, and not telling people what they don't deserve to hear. If we practice honesty this way we will all live in a better world. So it would be right to correct people on self evident truthes if need be.

    Not all truthes are self evident. To understand AND accept evolution as truth you would have to study it in depth and have first hand experiences of it's evidence. Otherwise you are not reasonably responsible to it, or for it. So really it's up to scientists and educators to objectively introduce everyone to this subject, and rationally answer all questions people have about it, if they all want to correct everyone.
    Being objective is not being swayed by emotions or appeals. Being objective is to attempt to answer objections.

    Objectivity is a moral value.
     
  13. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    33,350
    Ratings:
    +11,696
    Religion:
    Inner Child Healing
    In this case I'm not saying people should just it's not wrong to do so.
     
  14. Unveiled Artist

    Unveiled Artist Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2014
    Messages:
    33,350
    Ratings:
    +11,696
    Religion:
    Inner Child Healing
    I can't find the connection between saying you're wrong (the argument) and morality, truth, and objectivity.
     
  15. Nimos

    Nimos Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2014
    Messages:
    2,473
    Ratings:
    +1,456
    It depends how you say it to people, if you are all smug about it, there is a good chance of people getting annoyed. Alternatively it can be completely meaningless. Based on the way you phrased it.

    Lets take the example of the Holy trinity and that you believe in it. I come along and say "Your wrong about it, see you later." and walk away. At this point its completely meaningless.

    So there is nothing wrong with telling someone they are wrong, but for it to have any meaning, you need an argument or present a reason, like "I think you are wrong about the Holy trinity, because this, this and that."
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Useful Useful x 1
  16. osgart

    osgart Nothing my eye, Something for sure

    Joined:
    May 1, 2017
    Messages:
    4,231
    Ratings:
    +1,860
    Every argument makes its case for being true. And without morality, and objectivity no one will ever get at the truth of the argument. And without the truth no one can claim another person is wrong.

    If I'm not honest about the argument, and I am not objectively seeking the truth of it. Then I will never be qualified to tell someone they are wrong.

    And if the other side isn't seeing the truth of the argument then there is no point in getting in a right or wrong conversation.

    But we all are responsible to know things that are self evident.

    And some things that are true can take extensive study and reflection. In this case you have to demonstrate someone is wrong.

    Merely telling someone they are wrong is only productive when everyone is moral, objective, and honestly desiring the truth.

    If I tell a religious person they are wrong then I must be able to back that up. Otherwise it's just a statement of disagreement. Which is no big deal.
     
  17. darkskies

    darkskies Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2021
    Messages:
    509
    Ratings:
    +417
    Religion:
    None
    This exactly.

    People can say what they want, but most of the time it's useless saying things like "you're wrong".

    It's also implied. Disagreement in views being the entire reason for debate/discussion.

    Providing your understanding is more effective if you care about another's view.
     
  18. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2018
    Messages:
    12,508
    Ratings:
    +7,130
    Religion:
    Sanathana Dharma [The Eternal Religion]
    Of course its fine that you believe the other is wrong. To tell them, esp. unasked, is usually the issue, to believe is usually no problem. Acting on your belief might cause problems
     
  19. stvdv

    stvdv Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2018
    Messages:
    12,508
    Ratings:
    +7,130
    Religion:
    Sanathana Dharma [The Eternal Religion]
    They can, but its not smart
    Because its an arrogant statement

    Being humble (adding IMO) won't hurt you

    Does not apply to you though:cool:, you do this already;)
     
  20. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2006
    Messages:
    17,606
    Ratings:
    +8,320
    Religion:
    Philosophical Taoist/Christian
    When one's conception of reality causes them to act in conflict with reality, itself, they become dysfunctional. This is bad for them, and bad for those they interact with.

    When one's conception of reality differs from ours, but does not significantly cause them to act in conflict with reality, itself, I see no reason for us to concern ourselves about it.

    None of us have a clear or perfect conception of reality. All we can do is keep altering our concept of reality as necessary to try and reflect our interactions with reality, itself, as we are experiencing it. Presuming our concept of reality is 'right and true' and that any opposing view must then be 'wrong and false' is just ego-centric nonsense. And should be avoided.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
Loading...