difference between turiya and deep sleep?

[jg22]

Zenzero,

Understanding comes from somewhere and as the scriptures are written by realized individuals in the past by DIRECT experiences as they did not have the support of the Vedas themselves and so relied on DIRECT experience to understand and the same is possible HERE-NOW! through any being!

The traditional understanding is that shruti is apaurusheya shabda- not authored by any agency human or divine, therefore free from blemish and eternal. This means that they weren't created after somebody had a transcendental experience, but rather that the words were heard or received by excellent minds (rishis) and were pre-existent.

 

[Shântoham]

Thank you all for your comments,

thanks atanu for the link, thanks shAntoham

Shrigurubhyo namaH

You are welcome.

 

[Shântoham]

Friend Shantoham,

GrEEtings!
SorRy, persOnally when am reaDing it iS as If somEone is spEAking to Me. ToTally soRRy, it doEs noT Work the sAme fOr alL huMans. ExcUse mE.
Again SoRRY, That ReaLization is not tHe sAme fOr eVeryOne.

soRRy agaiN; neVer knEw tHat yOu aRe gOing soMewherE. PeRsonaLly reAlIsed tHat tHere is nO goINg anD coMing. KinDly gO wherEEver yOu wiSh,
BleSSings!

Love & rgds

Zenzero.

Quite a touchy little character you've got there my friend. I particularly like the way all those capital letters in your post mock my use of proper Sanskrit transliteration. Remind me again, how old are you?

 

[Cassandra]

Shrigurubhyo namaH

pranAm Cassandra

What you wrote is correct on many levels – but the reason why I suggested not to read the MAndUkya kArikA is more connected to the teaching method of VedAnta than anything else.
To be able to understand what we read we need to make connections between the book and what we already know. For example, if we have a good understanding of philosophy we can try to understand VedAnta.
The problem is that VedAnta is not something that needs to be understood by us. Like mathematic or science or philosophy. Our main problem as human beings is that we tend to objectify everything we encounter in life – and we do that by creating concepts. We conceptualize our very existence – including VedAnta. VedAnta is a pramANa, though, and we cannot conceptualize a pramANa – we can only use a pramANa. In order to gain moksha we have to expose ourselves to the appropriate pramANa. In other words, we have to open our ears and listen to the systematic teaching of a competent teacher. In order to do this we have to drop the knower – the conceptualizer. Through SraddhA we have to assume a posture-less posture – an attentive listening devoid of conceptualizations – and let the teaching and the teacher do the knowing for us. If we want to know form and color we simply point our eyes toward it and let the eyes do their job. If we want to know AtmA we let the teacher and the teaching see for us. They reveal to us our real essential nature – all we have to do is listening attentively. As I wrote the VedAnta sAdhanA for the prepared mind consists of SravaNam, mananam, and nididhyAsanam. The first and most important step is SravaNam – the process of attentive hearing – and not paThanam – the process of reading.
Our condition as jIvas is sapratibandhaka-jñAnam – knowledge with obstacles. There are specific obstacles – malam, AvaraNam, vikSepam – that prevent us from understanding our real essential nature. Listening attentively removes the obstacles and allows us to gain moksha. Exposing ourselves to the VedAnta pramANa causes in us a cognitive shift. This cognitive shift is what VedAnta calls enlightenment.
The pramANa does not give us knowledge. The pramANa removes the obstacles. And when the obstacles are removed we will clearly see what is plainly obvious to me – that this is a non-dual reality and… that (non-dual reality) we are!

Tat Sat BrahmArpaNamastu​

Pranaam Shântoham,

Thank you very much, that was quite enlightening!
Would you tell me some more about the three obstacles: malam, AvaraNam, vikSepam? And maybe, is there a special connection in this with Ganesha, remover of obstacles?

 

[zenzero]

Friend Shantoham,

Remind me again, how old are you?

Consciousness never speaks to ITself.

Love & rgds

 

[zenzero]

Friend jg,

The traditional understanding is that shruti is apaurusheya shabda- not authored by any agency human or divine, therefore free from blemish and eternal. This means that they weren't created after somebody had a transcendental experience, but rather that the words were heard or received by excellent minds (rishis) and were pre-existent.

Meaning the consciousness That bis clouded by your *mind* is not PURE CONSCIOUSNESS?? someone has to remind your mind about it, only then you recall IT!

Thank you.
Love & rgds

n.b. This is stating no claim; state that am human and in the mind, only efforts are to remain connected with that which is labelled no-mind. The journey towards understanding of no-understanding continues.........

 

[jg22]

Hello zenzero,

Meaning the consciousness That bis clouded by your *mind* is not PURE CONSCIOUSNESS?? someone has to remind your mind about it, only then you recall IT!

What do you mean here? Consciousness isn't clouded by my mind, on the contrary, my mind is revealed by consciousness.

My comment to you was about the point you made in regards to the necessity for the original muktas to have some spiritual experience in the absence of there being any pre-existing teaching to impart knowledge. In the traditional understanding, this isn't the case because the teachings are eternal, therefore, there need be no other means of knowledge, such as spiritual experience.

 

[zenzero]

Friend jg,

Sorry, if could not communicate in the sense you did.

the teachings are eternal, therefore, there need be no other means of knowledge, such as spiritual experience.

The point was trying to bring out that finally there is a medium between existence and the scriptures. Meaning it can be anyone who as everyone is a potential medium for existence messages to be shared back to existence.
Next only when the words are realized by any individual TRUTH is said to have been REALIZED but only for that individual.
Similarly what is TRUE for one may not be exactly true for another individual as still there will be a coloring of the individual's background or past karma, till total samadhi is reached.That was the point raised that the mind through which we are transcending to no-mind is clouded or coloured as mentioned according to the individual's background/karma/etc.
That is what have understood. Right/wrong is immaterial as auto correction is natural instinct of all beings.Through this correction [consciousness] keeps beings evolving directly.
Love & rgds

 

[Shântoham]

Pranaam Shântoham,

Thank you very much, that was quite enlightening!
Would you tell me some more about the three obstacles: malam, AvaraNam, vikSepam? And maybe, is there a special connection in this with Ganesha, remover of obstacles?

Shrigurubhyo namaH

pranAm Cassandra

There are three pratibandhas – obstacles, obstructions, hindrances, impediments – that prevent us from understanding our real essential nature. These obstacles are: malam, vikSepam and AvaraNam. The removal of these obstacles will allow us to enjoy our own intrinsic nature – svarUpam.
Malam consists of mental impurities. It is a gross obstacle.
vikSepam consists of mental restlessness, agitation, mental strain, stress, turbulence, lack of attention. It is a subtle obstacle.
AvaraNam consists of ignorance – aj~nAnam. Ignorance of what? Of our own intrinsic nature – svarUpam. Our own intrinsic nature is veiled by ignorance. Our own intrinsic nature has to be discovered. AvaraNam is the subtlest obstacle. You cannot remove it before you remove the gross and the subtle obstacles: malam and vikSepam.
Once these pratibandhas have been removed our own intrinsic nature will be fully known to us.

Tat Sat BrahmArpaNamastu​

 

[Shântoham]

Pranaam Shântoham,

Thank you very much, that was quite enlightening!
Would you tell me some more about the three obstacles: malam, AvaraNam, vikSepam? And maybe, is there a special connection in this with Ganesha, remover of obstacles?

Malam – the mental impurities – are many. The main two are rAga and dvesha – attachment and aversion. These main impurities – to which we can add kAma, desire, and krodha, anger – cause the other impurities: jealousy, hatred, etc. Sometimes even vikSepam is caused by malam.
We cannot remove attachment and aversion because we did not create them. They are natural states of mind. We can simply manage them. When we manage attachment and aversion all the other impurities are managed as well.
The only way to manage attachment and aversion is a life of karma yoga. The knowledge of how to live a life of karma yoga is found in the karma kANDa of the Vedas – the first section of the Vedas. karma yoga is anything that we do – physically, mentally, and orally – with a proper attitude. The proper attitude regarding action has three characteristics: the action is offered to the Lord, the results are accepted as a gift from the Lord, and there is no transgression of ethics or morality.
vikSepam can be removed only by the practice of upAsanam – meditation. upAsanam in this context is purely a mental activity. This is prescribed in the second part of the Vedas – the upAsana kANDa. Now even though pUja involves physical and oral activity, it is as good as meditation because our focus is on BhagavAn alone. Therefore pUja is said to be upAsanam. japa is the easiest form of meditation. If we can’t do this, then performing pUja (kAyikam karma, action performed with the body) and singing bhajans (vAcikam karma, action performed with the voice), are a preparation for meditation (mAnasa karma, action performed with the mind). Better than mAnasam japam is an unbroken flow of thought resting on BhagavAn.
AvaraNam – which consists of ignorance – can be removed only by j~nAnam – knowledge. Knowledge of what? Of our own intrinsic nature – svarUpam. The knowledge with which we can remove the obstacle of AvaraNam is found in the j~nAna kANDa – the final portion of the Vedas. The final portion of the Vedas is called VedAnta and it consists of the upaniSads.
VedAnta does not create knowledge. VedAnta removes the obstacle of ignorance.
How? The upaniSads contain the wisdom but, even if we try to read them, the wisdom is not readily available. The butter that’s already there in the milk will not come to the surface on its own. We need to extract it. And extraction involves a process, a method of extraction. Similarly there is a method of extracting knowledge from the upaniSads. This method of extraction is very important. The one who has knowledge of the method is the guru. That is why the teacher is very important in the tradition of VedAnta. The guru knows how to handle the words of the upaniSads: what to say first, what to say next, so that there is no ambiguity, no vagueness on the part of the student. In this way one gets to the knowledge in a clear and systematic manner.
j~nAna kANDa is called VedAnta shAstram – scriptures at the end of the Vedas. Why are they given at the end and not at the beginning? Because without the removal of malam and vikSepam first, the removal of AvaraNam is not possible. j~nAna kANDa, which is the smallest section of the Vedas, is said to be Veda shiras – the pinnacle of the Vedas.
The most important clue is in the word upaniSad itself. upa, near, implies guru, upasAdanam: a student respectfully approaching the teacher is implied by this prefix. The cover of ignorance has to be dispelled for that you need the knowledge in the upaniSad, for which you need the method of extraction, for which you need a teacher who knows how to handle the words. Removal of ignorance is not possible without a teacher. One needs to listen with all humility for a long time without interference or talking back. This process is called SravaNam.
Ni in the word upaniSad stands for nishcaya j~nAnam, definite, doubt-free knowledge of what fullness, happiness, Reality is. These are not different things. Knowing our own intrinsic nature is knowing Reality, knowing Reality is knowing fullness, knowing fullness is knowing happiness. The nature – svarUpam – of Reality is fullness, our own intrinsic nature is Reality, therefore the svarUpam of our own intrinsic nature is fullness. Knowing our own intrinsic nature is discovering what fullness is.
Two things prevent doubt-free knowledge: saMshaya, doubt, and viparyaya, unhealthy emotional habits. We eliminate doubt by reflecting on what has been heard during SravaNam and by asking questions to the teacher. This process is called mananam
And we remove unhealthy emotional habits with the help of nididhyAsanam. We can do nididhyAsanam only after SravaNam (study with the teacher) and mananam (clearing any possible doubts). nididhyAsanam requires the presence in the mind of the knowledge of Reality and this knowledge needs to be totally free of doubt.
upa and ni stand for SravaNam, mananam and nididhyAsanam: approaching the teacher, gaining definite doubt-free knowledge, constantly focusing the mind on the nature of our own intrinsic nature. This doesn’t allow the building up of doubt and unhealthy emotional habits.
Sad in the word upaniSad means nASanam, putting an end to, destroying. It is the definite knowledge that destroys ignorance and the ignorance-born problems of saMsAra – the cycle of birth and death. upaniSad, therefore, means knowledge that removes ignorance and ignorance-born problems.
The Vedas are like a mother. Mother knows the need of the child very well, similarly the Vedas know what our mind needs. The Vedas are always there to help us discover fullness, which is our own intrinsic nature. We already have it, but still we are searching for it and we suffer in the process.
First we need to remove malam by karma yoga, then vikSepam through upAsana and japa (the easiest of meditation techniques), and AvaraNam/aj~nAnam through knowledge. And we have to go to the guru to help us know how to extract the wisdom. Listen to the teacher, SravaNam. Repeated listening will result in mananam through which all our doubts are removed. Even when the doubts are removed we still have viparyaya – unhealthy emotional habits – because, even if we know Brahman, we are still unhappy. J~nAnam is there, but nishcaya j~nAnam is not there. For this reason we need to remove viparyaya using nididhyAsanam.
Commitment to the pursuit of knowledge must be such that one doesn’t get distracted at all. This is what will make the study of the upaniSads effective. To be more focused, more effective, to make us more inclined, more interested, to benefit more, we need to be 100% committed to the study of the upaniSads. Know the value of it. To make us discover that commitment in ourselves, the upaniSads need to make us know the limitation of karma.
karma is very important, because it is only by doing karma we can convert the karma into yoga, which is the only way to eliminate the problem of malam. Without the removal of malam there is no way of discovering fullness, but the removal of malam is not sufficient for fullness.
We are not gaining anything here. We are just removing the obstacles: first malam, then vikSepam, then AvaraNam. When these three are removed we discover what is already there: we are not attaining anything.
Do we attain fullness? Do we gain fullness? No. We only attain knowledge of fullness. Fullness and pure consciousness are one and the same. When the three obstacles are removed, everything else follows.
The upaniSads help us realize the value of knowledge and the limitation of karma. Karma merely performed without puruShArtha nishcaya – doubt-free certainty that mokSha is the ultimate aim of life – will leave us bound forever; karma performed with knowledge of the limitation of karma, with puruShArtha nishcaya, will be a yoga that will remove impurities of the mind. But karma on its own is not enough, so in order to make one committed to the pursuit of knowledge the upaniSads talk about karma merely in order to point out its limitation.

 

[DanielR]

Could someone tell me why Sri Ramana Maharshi in his book talkings with ... often compares the Self with the deep sleep state then? This is something I don't understand

 

[Vinayaka]

Don't feel bad. No one can 'understand' from the intellect something that is beyond the intellect. Some might pretend, but they really don't. Sri Ramana was operating at some level far above the intellect.

 

[DanielR]

Well, thanks ^^

 

[DanielR]

By the way is it true that in deep sleep I experience bliss but only know it afterwards when I'm awake, whereas in Turiya I experience bliss and know it immediately during the fact lol, does that make sense :lol:

 

[DanielR]

lol sorry for bumping this thread, I think I 'get' it now

 

[atanu]

Could someone tell me why Sri Ramana Maharshi in his book talkings with ... often compares the Self with the deep sleep state then? This is something I don't understand

Where. Can you show the exact statement?

 

[DanielR]

Hi atanu,

sorry I only have the German version of his book, but it's from 29.September 1936!

 

[zenzero]

Friend Daniel,

Are you refering to this:

Ramana Mahashi on Turiya and Samadhi, Turiya means Fourth state of Reality

Love & rgds

 

[atanu]

Hi atanu,

sorry I only have the German version of his book, but it's from 29.September 1936!

Thank you Daniel. Can you also mention the english name of the book that you are citing.

 

[atanu]

Got it. I have The Talks. It is on the web at: Talks with Sri Ramana Maharshi:Talk 251.

Relevant portion is reproduced below.

D.: I shall be more definite. Though a stranger, I am obliged to confess the cause of my anxiety. I am blessed with children. A boy - a good brahmachari [?] - passed away in February. I was grief-stricken. I was disgusted with this life. I want to devote myself to spiritual life. But my duties as a grihini do not permit me to lead a retired life.

Hence my doubt.

M.: Retirement means abidance in the Self. Nothing more. It is not leaving one set of surroundings and getting entangled in another set, nor even leaving the concrete world and becoming involved in a mental world. The birth of the son, his death, etc., are seen in the Self only. Recall the state of sleep. Were you aware of anything happening? If the son or the world be real, should they not be present with you in sleep? You cannot deny your existence in sleep. Nor can you deny you were happy then. You are the same person now speaking and raising doubts. You are not happy, according to you. But you were happy in sleep. What has transpired in the meantime that happiness of sleep has broken down? It is the rise of ego. That is the new arrival in the jagrat [?] state. There was no ego in sleep. The birth of the ego is called the birth of the person. There is no other kind of birth. Whatever is born is bound to die. Kill the ego: there is no fear of recurring death for what is once dead. The Self remains even after the death of the ego. That is Bliss - that is Immortality.