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Difference between Morality and Virtue?

godnotgod

Thou art That
Morality in a descriptive sense does not entail that the particular system of conduct is virtuous, so perhaps I defined Morality wrong, because it is not a system of (virtues) something that is good in and of itself (whatever the really means), but rather a system of any code of conduct.

OK.

Does this moral code necessarily involve the concepts of Good and Evil? That is to say, does morality itself depend on these two concepts?

Is the intrinsic 'good' that is found within Virtue the same kind of 'good' that is referenced in the Moral Code?
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
Right, but that is just an analogy.

Yes, of course, but does the analogy work?

You presented no real argument to support the idea that the mind is a tabula rasa before "social indoctrination".

If it is not the Uncarved Block, then what is it? Now, bear in mind that I am NOT saying that the condition of the Uncarved Block is not conscious. It is VERY conscious, but it is in a state of innocency, in which the mind does not discriminate right from wrong. In other words, it is a mind not yet knowing what dualism is.

Indeed, it is that period of social indoctrination that has defined your concept of virtue.

Actually, no, it is not. I had to unlearn my social conditioning first before I caught a glimpse of Virtue, and I can tell you that Virtue is definitely NOT defined by social indoctrination. It is beyond that.

As I pointed out earlier, a Quaker and a samurai are likely to have very different concepts of virtue. In both cases, though, what makes them the same is rigid adherence to an idealized, morally-defined behavior.

Yes, true, but 'Quaker' and 'samurai' are products of social/cultural conditioning.
So they do develop concepts of what virtue is, based upon that conditioning, but they still do not see Virtue as it actually exists. If they did, they would see the same thing. Once again, we are still in the realm of morality, disguised as virtue.

Virtue is a generic condition, not dependent upon social indoctrination, mores, taboos, and the like.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
Wayne Dyer on Virtue in terms of Tao:
(edited)

Chapter 38 of the Tao te Ching opens with:

"When Tao is lost, there is goodness."

I felt perplexed because it seemed so contradictory to what the Tao Te Ching was teaching. Finally, in a moment of contemplation... it became clear to me:

Nature is good without knowing it.

I then understood.. this somewhat confusing 38th verse.
Live by your essential nature, the Tao, which is oneness; it has no polarity. Yet the moment that you know you're good, you introduce the polarity of "good" versus "bad," which causes you to lose your connection to the Tao [your essential nature]. Then you introduce something new; you figure that if you can't be good, you'll try to be moral. And what is morality but standards of right and wrong that you try to uphold? As Lao-tzu seems to be saying:

The Tao is oneness; it has no standards for you to follow.

In other words, the Tao just is; it isn't doing anything, yet it leaves nothing undone. There's no morality; there is only the unattached Tao. It isn't right and it isn't fair, but it is essential nature, [virtue] and you're encouraged to be true to your own.

Then, as morality is lost, the idea of ritual surfaces, so you try to live in accordance with rules and customs that have defined "your people" for centuries. But I could almost hear Lao-tzu saying:

The Tao is infinite and excludes no one.

Rituals keep you disconnected from the Tao, and you lose them by trying. So you rely upon laws, further dividing and creating chaos for yourself. Again, the Tao just is its own true, essential nature - it has no laws, rituals, morality, or goodness. Observe it and live within its nature. In other words, act without being concerned for your own ego.* Give as the Tao does, without condition [or ulterior motive] or trying to be good, moral, or just. Just give to all without preference, as Lao-tzu advises.
Living by this 38th verse may be the total opposite of what you've learned in this lifetime [ie; 'social indoctrination']. Lao-tzu wrote it (and the next one) in response to his opposition to Confucius, his contemporary who laid out specific edicts and codes of conduct for the people. What Laotzu is saying is:

Trust your own essential nature. Let go of all polarities and live in the indivisible oneness that is the Tao.

The dichotomies of good/bad, right/wrong, proper/improper, legal/illegal, and the like can be difficult-just remember that when they surface, the Tao is lost.

Dyer essay - Tao Te Ching 38

*Compare to the parable of the Lilies of the Field in the Bible.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
I do not think that you can begin to define virtue independently of a moral code. It has nothing to do with "tribal man". You haven't been reading Rousseau lately, have you? ;)

I am not using the term "tribal" in the concept of Rousseau's "noble savage". When I say "tribal man", I mean the adherence to the idea of "us and them", or more accurately, "us VS. them". Of course, this means all nations, modern or otherwise. One can, of course, entertain a universal outlook on life even if one is a member of whatever nationality one finds oneself born into. The difference is that universal man does not take the tribal view too seriously. He sees it more as an encumbrance than a real necessity. Nationalistic and racial differences to the universal mind are of little importance in the living of actual reality. The nurturing of universal mind is the nurturing of one's own intrinsic virtue in which one sees all as one. The nurturing of tribal man is the nurturing of a divisive moral viewpoint that involves the dualities of right and wrong, good and evil, we and they, etc, etc,.
 

dust1n

Zindīq
OK.

Does this moral code necessarily involve the concepts of Good and Evil? That is to say, does morality itself depend on these two concepts?

No, it only requires humans to decide what their morality is.

Is the intrinsic 'good' that is found within Virtue the same kind of 'good' that is referenced in the Moral Code?

Both 'good's are subject, but Virtue is something is supposedly something intrinsically 'good', so the debate is over what is virtuous, which will (like anything ontologically) be reliant on perspective and context.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
No, it only requires humans to decide what their morality is.

Sure. But what is the criteria used to formulate morality?



Both 'good's are subject, but Virtue is something is supposedly something intrinsically 'good', so the debate is over what is virtuous, which will (like anything ontologically) be reliant on perspective and context.

If Virtue is intrinsic, then it is not conceptual, and so does not require formulation, via thought. It already is there, coming out of the gate. If anything, it is impersonal, rather than personal, or subjective.

When we remove what you are calling 'perspective and context', what then is the condition?
 

dust1n

Zindīq
Sure. But what is the criteria used to formulate morality?

The criteria would be subjective to the person formulating morality, unless they are specifically looking into what morality is, in which case they will be stuck at moral dilemmas where acts appear to be moral in some situations, and immoral in others.




If Virtue is intrinsic, then it is not conceptual, and so does not require formulation, via thought. It already is there, coming out of the gate. If anything, it is impersonal, rather than personal, or subjective.

I agree, but humans only exist in the realm of subjectivity. Sure we can argue over what an intrinsic future is, but we can't really know if it is in fact intrinsic since it will always be examined from different perspectives.

When we remove what you are calling 'perspective and context', what then is the condition?

Nothing to me, because I wouldn't even perceive it. The human mind is restricted to the perceptions of reality through language.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
The criteria would be subjective to the person formulating morality, unless they are specifically looking into what morality is, in which case they will be stuck at moral dilemmas where acts appear to be moral in some situations, and immoral in others.

OK, but in both cases, is the criteria some sense of what is right or wrong, good or evil?


I agree, but humans only exist in the realm of subjectivity. Sure we can argue over what an intrinsic future is, but we can't really know if it is in fact intrinsic since it will always be examined from different perspectives.
"Different perspectives" meaning "personal viewpoints", I take it. But what if there is another view, one that is impersonal and universal? Then what?

Nothing to me, because I wouldn't even perceive it. The human mind is restricted to the perceptions of reality through language.
Is it? Language was created by the human mind, and so the human mind precedes language.

Can you tell me what the condition of the human mind is before language, before thought, before concept, before "personal view" came into being?
 

reloadthis

Member
Morality is a set of ethical codes set by man/culture whereas virtues are bestowed upon man/culture by the grace of God/angels or what have you...
 

dust1n

Zindīq
OK, but in both cases, is the criteria some sense of what is right or wrong, good or evil?

Well 'good and evil' I'm sure are criteria for lot's of people definitions of morality, but it is not the case for mine.


"Different perspectives" meaning "personal viewpoints", I take it. But what if there is another view, one that is impersonal and universal? Then what?

We couldn't know it.

Is it? Language was created by the human mind, and so the human mind precedes language.

Can you tell me what the condition of the human mind is before language, before thought, before concept, before "personal view" came into being?

Still language. Communication is more than just language as we know it. A baby dog interacts with its world through language. A bug interacts with other bugs through language. A human mind before it's first grunts (or whatever) wouldn't be any different. We still interact without talking.
 

MSizer

MSizer
Virtue is a normative description of an allegedly good trait of a person. So for example, a list of virtues would be patience, temperance, courage and the like. According to Aristotle and others who believe in virtue ethics, the person who embeds those virtues into his/her character becomes a moral person. Virtue ethics theory has pretty much been debunked though by moral psychologists (especially stanley milgram).
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
Well 'good and evil' I'm sure are criteria for lot's of people definitions of morality, but it is not the case for mine.

OK, so what set of criteria do you use for your morality?




We couldn't know it.

Not with a personal view, anyway. But do we have the capacity for a universal view which would allow us such a view?



Still language. Communication is more than just language as we know it. A baby dog interacts with its world through language. A bug interacts with other bugs through language. A human mind before it's first grunts (or whatever) wouldn't be any different. We still interact without talking.

OK. But the mind must be in place first before any communication via of any form of language can take place. Language requires thought. Before thought is formulated to produce language, what is the condition of mind?
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
Virtue is a normative description of an allegedly good trait of a person. So for example, a list of virtues would be patience, temperance, courage and the like. According to Aristotle and others who believe in virtue ethics, the person who embeds those virtues into his/her character becomes a moral person. Virtue ethics theory has pretty much been debunked though by moral psychologists (especially stanley milgram).

Good post. But the virtue you speak of is a cultured virtue tied to morality. It is man made. Its parameters are rules of conduct defined by concepts of right and wrong. I want to know if there is an intrinsic virtue, one that is present before you are socially indoctrinated; one that, were you able to completely free yourself of the marks placed on you by your society, your culture, your race, would be discovered as being the very core of your true nature, already complete and present, and not defined by human values of right and wrong.
 

dust1n

Zindīq
OK, so what set of criteria do you use for your morality?

Well, that's complicated.. my personal method is a bit out there and we would derail.






Not with a personal view, anyway. But do we have the capacity for a universal view which would allow us such a view?

I can't tell you if we have the capacity for a universal view. I can't tell you if there is any a universal view, regardless if we have the capacity to grasp it. You can very well stumble upon a view that is universal for all I know, but we have no capacity to know if you do, in fact, stumble upon a universal view. The only I have ever known to have views on things were humans, and thus no reason to thing anything exists beyond that. The capacity to process information seems to be the key to having a perception, whether that being is self-conscious or not change this. But to think that there is an overall view from someone who perfectly processes information to know and determine what is universal is beyond my suspension of disbelief. What is all-knowing? To contain all perspectives? Is the way existence 'works' really come down to any of the math equations we've written? Is there a book where the qualitative experience or human condition is perfectly described? I don't know.




OK. But the mind must be in place first before any communication via of any form of language can take place. Language requires thought. Before thought is formulated to produce language, what is the condition of mind?

I would have to look into it more, but I'm thinking language developed sometime when human colonies formed. What resembles the way monkeys communicate.. the tones, the overall sound eventually became more defined when the bigger cranium formed and humanoids started forming into clans or tribes or nomadic/stationary civilizations came about. Education contributes to a lot of what one can understand about reality.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
I can't tell you if we have the capacity for a universal view. I can't tell you if there is any a universal view, regardless if we have the capacity to grasp it. You can very well stumble upon a view that is universal for all I know, but we have no capacity to know if you do, in fact, stumble upon a universal view. The only I have ever known to have views on things were humans, and thus no reason to thing anything exists beyond that. The capacity to process information seems to be the key to having a perception, whether that being is self-conscious or not change this. But to think that there is an overall view from someone who perfectly processes information to know and determine what is universal is beyond my suspension of disbelief. What is all-knowing? To contain all perspectives? Is the way existence 'works' really come down to any of the math equations we've written? Is there a book where the qualitative experience or human condition is perfectly described? I don't know.
I am not suggesting that a universal view is an 'all-knowing' one, but one where everyone sees the same reality. Since reality is One, any differing views are contained within it. It would be somewhat akin to saying that Christianity is the universal view, while Protestantism and Catholicism are more 'personal' views of Christianity.

When you suggest that a book or some formal knowledge might contain a perfect view, you are already within the realm of thought and therefore a personal view. A universal view, then, must necessarily come before thought. It is not about thinking, but about seeing. Because it is a view that is present before thought, it is also a view that is impersonal: it is neither your view nor my view, because the idea of an "I" which thinks is also a product of thought. So it is not about a 'you' or 'I' which sees, but about seeing itself. Seeing itself gains access to the universal view.

Imagine a white laser light that is split in two via of perfect mirrors. While there are now two beams, there is only one light, and they are virtually identical. So what one beam sees is exactly what the other sees as well. No thought is involved. If you now place two different colored filters over each, the result will be two different results. This condition would approximate to having a personal view, the colored filter being one's ego, or "I". So we might say that these are distortions of the true nature of the original. The point here is that an original does exist, does not involve thought or knowledge, and is always present. The capacity to apprehend such a view involves only seeing, without thought, and without an agent called "I" which sees.

Here is Alan Watts on the topic of 'metaphysic':

"Metaphysic...is the apprehension of reality prior to any facts...As a 'pre-factual' knowledge it is concerned with what we know directly and immediately, as distinct from what we know by reflection, inference, and abstraction. This is not to say that its concern is with uninterpreted sense-data. It is far more fundamental. For the very notion that the foundations of experience are sense-data is already an opinion, and interpretation of experience based upon memory and reflective thought. The word 'metaphysic' itself is the clue to its meaning: it is the knowledge of that which is 'beyond' (meta) 'nature' (physis) - that is to say, of the way in which we experience before we ascertain the nature of our experiences by reflection - by remembering, naming, and classifying. Strictly speaking, then, metaphysic has no language, and its content is incommunicable or ineffable.

In one sense, however, there is no need to communicate metaphysical knowledge because it is already the ground of anything else. It is the origin, the sine qua non, the basis of all other knowledge. But it is at the same time a neglected knowledge, because the mind is distracted by things that come after - somewhat as considerations about the past and future distract us from the immediate present. Therefore metaphysical knowledge is communicated, not by direct description, but by a removal of distractions and obstacles. When these are out of the way, it is possible for the mind to attend one-pointedly to the only reality which it knows, veritably, immediately, now.

Nearly every great culture of the world has held this type of knowledge in the highest esteem, even when it was enjoyed only by an elite minority. For knowledge of this kind is the essential corrective, the 'ballast of sanity', for a species whose chief instrument of adaptation to the world is memory and reflective thought, the power of abstraction. It preserves the mind from slavery to, as distinct from mastery of, the conventions of thought, and from the anguish and confusion which follow from treating certain abstractions, such as the ego, as realities. It keeps our consciousness in touch with life itself, and preserves it from the emotional frustrations which attend the pursuit of such purely abstract mirages as 'pleasure', the 'future', or the 'good'."


excerpted from: 'Myth and Ritual in Christianity', by Alan Watts

Education contributes to a lot of what one can understand about reality.
Does it? Education utilizes knowledge, which is comprised of facts. Facts are held in memory, which is data about reality. Since it is held in memory, it is knowledge from the past, used to predict what may occur in the future, as in scientific knowledge. But it is not about reality as it exists now, because reality as it now exists is an event, and not a frozen fact. It can only be apprehended by seeing it in the Now. Reality just 'is'. Any attempt to encapsulate it via knowledge only renders information about reality; it tells us what the characteristics of reality are, and how it behaves, but not about the true nature of reality. If education gave us understanding as to the nature of reality, we would know what the nature of the universe is, but we do not. In fact, we are further away from a true understanding about the nature of the universe than ever, in spite of the fact that we have a huge amount of factual knowledge about it. We understand much about its behavior, but still nothing about its true nature. It is still a total mystery.
 
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godnotgod

Thou art That
godnotgod said:


OK. But the mind must be in place first before any communication via of any form of language can take place. Language requires thought. Before thought is formulated to produce language, what is the condition of mind?

I would have to look into it more, but I'm thinking language developed sometime when human colonies formed. What resembles the way monkeys communicate.. the tones, the overall sound eventually became more defined when the bigger cranium formed and humanoids started forming into clans or tribes or nomadic/stationary civilizations came about. Education contributes to a lot of what one can understand about reality.

I was asking what the condition of mind is before all of that. Can you tell me what the condition of your mind is before thought, idea, or concept; before language, before knowledge?
 

dust1n

Zindīq
I am not suggesting that a universal view is an 'all-knowing' one, but one where everyone sees the same reality. Since reality is One, any differing views are contained within it. It would be somewhat akin to saying that Christianity is the universal view, while Protestantism and Catholicism are more 'personal' views of Christianity.

I have no inclination to think that everyone sees the same anything within reality.

Does it? Education utilizes knowledge, which is comprised of facts. Facts are held in memory, which is data about reality. Since it is held in memory, it is knowledge from the past, used to predict what may occur in the future, as in scientific knowledge. But it is not about reality as it exists now, because reality as it now exists is an event, and not a frozen fact. It can only be apprehended by seeing it in the Now. Reality just 'is'. Any attempt to encapsulate it via knowledge only renders information about reality; it tells us what the characteristics of reality are, and how it behaves, but not about the true nature of reality. If education gave us understanding as to the nature of reality, we would know what the nature of the universe is, but we do not. In fact, we are further away from a true understanding about the nature of the universe than ever, in spite of the fact that we have a huge amount of factual knowledge about it. We understand much about its behavior, but still nothing about its true nature. It is still a total mystery.

Education doesn't necessarily have to entail a complete curriculum of facts. There are types of education based on the self-education oriented model. I agree with your assertions. I'm just saying Education is going to be necessary to increase a world-wide understanding about the universe - regardless if it's not the 'truth about nature' - by understanding different perspectives of phenomenol truths and the implications of such.

Your paragraph needed education before it could even become developed.
 

dust1n

Zindīq
godnotgod said:






I was asking what the condition of mind is before all of that. Can you tell me what the condition of your mind is before thought, idea, or concept; before language, before knowledge?

Not really, but I can vaguely remember life when the stimuli was solely based on images and senses and nothing more.
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
Does anyone care to discuss the differences, and their implications, between Morality and Virtue?

Working definitions might be in order.
I would say that morality is a system of right and wrong.

A virtue, otoh, is a principle that is morally good. Justice, for example.

So, morality encompasses virtue, but also its opposite.
 

godnotgod

Thou art That
I have no inclination to think that everyone sees the same anything within reality.

Yes, and that is because of personal viewpoints that are held about reality, which are, essentially, distortions. I am suggesting that, when we abandon such personal views, we would see the exact same reality. Why should it be any different?


Education doesn't necessarily have to entail a complete curriculum of facts. There are types of education based on the self-education oriented model. I agree with your assertions. I'm just saying Education is going to be necessary to increase a world-wide understanding about the universe - regardless if it's not the 'truth about nature' - by understanding different perspectives of phenomenol truths and the implications of such.

OK. So what will that accomplish? What, exactly, do we hope to 'understand' by such education?

Your paragraph needed education before it could even become developed.

That is true, but before that, it required insight, which is not dependent upon any education whatsoever. The education necessary to develop it only applies to its mechanics, but not to its understanding.

What I am saying is that education, no matter how much you may acquire, will never yield understanding. It will yield only more knowledge. The only way you will understand anything is via seeing, which precedes thought, idea, concept, knowledge, education, etc.
 
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