Did the Church father's know the Gospel writers?

[firedragon]

This has been the primary argument of the Christians to authenticate the Gospel,s and their respective authors.

Lets say that from the Gospels themselves none of the names are authenticated. No writer claims to be any of the authors attributed to the Gospels. Thus, the Christian response to this is that the Church fathers knew the authors.

Who are the church fathers who knew the authors? How do you know the names they mention are the people who wrote these specific Gospels? What are the writings that these associations are attributed to?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I suspect that Papias is about as close as we come.

 

[Kenny]

This has been the primary argument of the Christians to authenticate the Gospel,s and their respective authors.

Lets say that from the Gospels themselves none of the names are authenticated. No writer claims to be any of the authors attributed to the Gospels. Thus, the Christian response to this is that the Church fathers knew the authors.

Who are the church fathers who knew the authors? How do you know the names they mention are the people who wrote these specific Gospels? What are the writings that these associations are attributed to?

Papias is one:

Papias refers by name to the books of Mark, Matthew, First Epistle of John and the Epistle of Peter. Fragment 6 from Eusebius� Ecclesiastical History book 3 ch.39 p.173.

It is said that Polycarp also mentioned the gospels.

As with all archaeological findings, time erodes evidence and pickings are slim.

There are many more references in the next generation.

 

[metis]

This has been the primary argument of the Christians to authenticate the Gospel,s and their respective authors.

Lets say that from the Gospels themselves none of the names are authenticated. No writer claims to be any of the authors attributed to the Gospels. Thus, the Christian response to this is that the Church fathers knew the authors.

Who are the church fathers who knew the authors? How do you know the names they mention are the people who wrote these specific Gospels? What are the writings that these associations are attributed to?

That depends on how one defines "church fathers" since that could include the Apostles and their appointees, which is the way I would take it.

 

[loverofhumanity]

This has been the primary argument of the Christians to authenticate the Gospel,s and their respective authors.

Lets say that from the Gospels themselves none of the names are authenticated. No writer claims to be any of the authors attributed to the Gospels. Thus, the Christian response to this is that the Church fathers knew the authors.

Who are the church fathers who knew the authors? How do you know the names they mention are the people who wrote these specific Gospels? What are the writings that these associations are attributed to?

None of us really know, but there’s every possibility, I believe, that Muhammad, in confirming the truth of the Gospels in the Quran Sura 3:3 was referring to the Syriac Pe****ta version which was the current version at that time.

He hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture with truth, confirming that which was (revealed) before it, even as He revealed the Torah and the Gospel.

And Baha’u’llah also confirms the names of the authors of the Gospels.

The Four Gospels were written after Him [Christ]. John, Luke, Mark and Matthew - these four wrote after Christ what they remembered of His utterances.
(From a previously untranslated Tablet)

I would always trust completely the accuracy of the Word of God above what scholars or clergy say.

 

[firedragon]

That depends on how one defines "church fathers" since that could include the Apostles and their appointees, which is the way I would take it.

Well, I would like to hear how you would define church fathers as well. Thats interesting.

 

[firedragon]

None of us really know, but there’s every possibility, I believe, that Muhammad, in confirming the truth of the Gospels in the Quran Sura 3:3 was referring to the Syriac Pe****ta version which was the current version at that time.

He hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture with truth, confirming that which was (revealed) before it, even as He revealed the Torah and the Gospel.

And Baha’u’llah also confirms the names of the authors of the Gospels.

The Four Gospels were written after Him [Christ]. John, Luke, Mark and Matthew - these four wrote after Christ what they remembered of His utterances.
(From a previously untranslated Tablet)

I would always trust completely the accuracy of the Word of God above what scholars or clergy say.

Not relevant brother. Muhammed and Bahaullah are not relevant to this thread.

Hope you understand.

 

[firedragon]

Papias is one:

Papias refers by name to the books of Mark, Matthew, First Epistle of John and the Epistle of Peter. Fragment 6 from Eusebius� Ecclesiastical History book 3 ch.39 p.173.

It is said that Polycarp also mentioned the gospels.

As with all archaeological findings, time erodes evidence and pickings are slim.

There are many more references in the next generation.

Could you please quote the exact thing that Eusebius says?

 

[Valjean]

The Four Gospels - Sources and History
Historical reliability of the Gospels - Wikipedia

 

[Kenny]

Could you please quote the exact thing that Eusebius says?

Sorry... forgot to put the source - not the same source but same principle.:

Here is a list:

The Writings of Papias.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Not relevant brother. Muhammed and Bahaullah are not relevant to this thread.

Hope you understand.

Sure.

 

[firedragon]

Sorry... forgot to put the source - not the same source but same principle.:

Here is a list:

The Writings of Papias.

Brother. I have the source. Thats not required.

I would like you to say exactly what Eusebius said.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

This has been the primary argument of the Christians to authenticate the Gospel,s and their respective authors.

Lets say that from the Gospels themselves none of the names are authenticated. No writer claims to be any of the authors attributed to the Gospels. Thus, the Christian response to this is that the Church fathers knew the authors.

Who are the church fathers who knew the authors? How do you know the names they mention are the people who wrote these specific Gospels? What are the writings that these associations are attributed to?

Well, we don't actually know who wrote the gospels, but certainly some of the church fathers were alive at the same time. However, they only guessed who had written them, which is how the tradition of the authors being Matthew Mark Luke and John came into being.

What is perhaps more important is that some of the Church Fathers, such as Polycarp and Ignatius, were converted by the apostles. This is why it behooves Christians to read their writings, to get a fuller picture of what Christian teaching was in the beginning.

 

[firedragon]

some of the church fathers were alive at the same time.

Lets say the Gospel of Mark. Which church father was alive at that time?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Lets say the Gospel of Mark. Which church father was alive at that time?

Polycarp, Ignatius, Clement I.

 

[firedragon]

Polycarp, Ignatius, Clement I.

Polycarp lived during the latter part of the 1st century. Ignatius of Antioch is very vague in dating, and still late 1st century to 2nd century. So was clement, though clement is closer in time.

So your statement was not factual. Unless you believe Mark was written so late. If you believe Mark was written so late, that's fine. Or maybe you mean "they were toddlers when mark was living". Well, that may very well be.

Anyway, since you quoted Clement who is closest, where does clement quote Mark and exactly what does he say? Can you quote directly?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Polycarp lived during the latter part of the 1st century. Ignatius of Antioch is very vague in dating, and still late 1st century to 2nd century. So was clement, though clement is closer in time.

Peter appointed Ignatius bishop of Antioch if you accept historical sources outside of the New Testament. Clement is mentioned in Philippians 4:3.

So your statement was not factual. Unless you believe Mark was written so late. If you believe Mark was written so late, that's fine. Or maybe you mean "they were toddlers when mark was living". Well, that may very well be.

Actually what I'm proposing is that Mark didn't write Mark at all, but some Gentile wrote Mark decades later. Not knowing the true author, it only became traditional in the church to attribute it to Mark.

Anyway, since you quoted Clement who is closest, where does clement quote Mark and exactly what does he say? Can you quote directly?

Why do you think that Clement needs to quote Mark?

 

[firedragon]

Why do you think that Clement needs to quote Mark?

If not whats the point of quoting clement in a question regarding Mark? Thats a strange question you asked.

Peter appointed Ignatius bishop of Antioch if you accept historical sources outside of the New Testament. Clement is mentioned in Philippians 4:3.

But that's Phillipians. Not Mark. The question was on mark.

Actually what I'm proposing is that Mark didn't write Mark at all, but some Gentile wrote Mark decades later. Not knowing the true author, it only became traditional in the church to attribute it to Mark.

Of course. no one knows who wrote Mark. Thats a whole different topic altogether.

This one is about the church fathers and the Gospels as per the OP.

Hope you understand.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

If not whats the point of quoting clement in a question regarding Mark? Thats a strange question you asked.



But that's Phillipians. Not Mark. The question was on mark.



Of course. no one knows who wrote Mark. Thats a whole different topic altogether.

This one is about the church fathers and the Gospels as per the OP.

Hope you understand.

I'm not sure why you feel the need for the Apostolic Fathers to quote Mark.

The earliest that Mark could possibly have been written was after 70 CE, since it speaks of the destruction of the second Temple.

However, it is not quoted until in the second century by Papius, Irenaeus, and Clement of Alexandria.

 

[firedragon]

I'm not sure why you feel the need for the Apostolic Fathers to quote Mark.

Why do you feel I feel the need mate? It was just a question because you spoke of Mark and church fathers.

Yet again, if its not your forte, just leave it.