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Did Saul get a bum deal?

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
“In the letter he wrote, “Put Uriyah on the front lines of the fiercest fighting; then pull back from him, so that he will be wounded and killed.”

yes, sorry, you're 100% correct.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
That’s not really a basis for deciding how repentant someone was. Only people who write poems about it have repented? It’s not a strong argument.

IF this is how David repented, THEN that is much different than Saul. Right?
 

Tomef

Well-Known Member
IF this is how David repented, THEN that is much different than Saul. Right?
Saul’s expression of regret is what he said in the moment, who knows how he felt about it later? Not everyone is a poet. I’m assuming David wrote his verses much later, if he wrote them. People express their regret in different ways, if we judged everyone by how poetic their expression of regret is, well, that wouldn’t really give you a reliable yardstick.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
What I mean is neither of them could change what they did. Both expressed regret. Whether or not they repented in the sense that they wouldn’t have done the same thing again, in the same circumstances, is unknowable.

David crushed his heart. what did saul do? Saul went to a prophet, to a 3rd party and said, pardon me so I can... that's a big difference isn't it.

Also, saul gives the reason for the transgression, right? isn't he blaming others?
 

Tomef

Well-Known Member
David crushed his heart. what did saul do? Saul went to a prophet, to a 3rd party and said, pardon me so I can... that's a big difference isn't it.

Also, saul gives the reason for the transgression, right? isn't he blaming others?
I don’t think he’s blaming anyone, he says he acted because he was afraid of others. More self-awareness than blame attribution I think.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Saul’s expression of regret is what he said in the moment, who knows how he felt about it later? Not everyone is a poet. I’m assuming David wrote his verses much later, if he wrote them. People express their regret in different ways, if we judged everyone by how poetic their expression of regret is, well, that wouldn’t really give you a reliable yardstick.

for me, speaking only for me, I am looking for a lesson which is being taught. i am not looking to judge individuals. the lesson that I think is being taught is about repentence, and psalms 51 is a model for that. not writing it, but DOING it.

of course, no one can claim to know the contents of either David, Saul, Uriah, Bathsheba, Nathan, any of them... no one knows any of that.

if you'll note: psalm 51 says "When Nathan the prophet came to him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba...." But, you are assuming that is written much later. so right here, this is an example of a biased assumption being made. but even if it was written afterwards, long after by some poet named Henry. And all of this is a fable. That doesn't change the lessons being taught.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
“Sha’ul said to Sh’mu’el, “I have sinned. I violated the order of Adonai and your words too, because I was afraid of the people and listened to what they said. Now, please, pardon my sin; and come back with me, so that I can worship Adonai.”

"I violated your words too...." he's not repenting to Adonai. He's asking for pardon from Sh'muel, but never repents to Adonai.
 

Tomef

Well-Known Member
for me, speaking only for me, I am looking for a lesson which is being taught. i am not looking to judge individuals. the lesson that I think is being taught is about repentence, and psalms 51 is a model for that. not writing it, but DOING it.

of course, no one can claim to know the contents of either David, Saul, Uriah, Bathsheba, Nathan, any of them... no one knows any of that.

if you'll note: psalm 51 says "When Nathan the prophet came to him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba...." But, you are assuming that is written much later. so right here, this is an example of a biased assumption being made. but even if it was written afterwards, long after by some poet named Henry. And all of this is a fable. That doesn't change the lessons being taught.
Yes, I see your point, but David and Saul are two different people. One person’s humble apology is no less valid that another’s public show of contrition. The rest of it is emotion and spin. Silent people can feel as deeply as demonstrative people, you just don’t see the outwards signs of it.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
I don’t think he’s blaming anyone, he says he acted because he was afraid of others. More self-awareness than blame attribution I think.

it's not saying, "I am at fault", it is saying "naturally, I did the same anyone else does in fear"
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Yes, I see your point, but David and Saul are two different people. One person’s humble apology is no less valid that another’s public show of contrition. The rest of it is emotion and spin. Silent people can feel as deeply as demonstrative people, you just don’t see the outwards signs of it.

I'm not so sure. A commitment expressed verbally and/or in writing is much-much stronger than leaving it swimming in the mind.

This is why parents will require a stubborn child: "repeat after me: I will not sneak cookies before supper." It works, too!
 

Tomef

Well-Known Member
it's not saying, "I am at fault", it is saying "naturally, I did the same anyone else does in fear"
Well the reading is in the mind of the reader, I think. To my mind a lot of spin has been put on the story, and David is just a more appealing, charismatic character than Saul. It’s important to look past that kind of thing I think.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Well the reading is in the mind of the reader, I think. To my mind a lot of spin has been put on the story, and David is just a more appealing, charismatic character than Saul. It’s important to look past that kind of thing I think.

I appreciate your kindness and sense of justice coming to saul's defense. it's not appeal if David is understood as the author if many psalms of repentence. the whole book of psalms can be read as a how-to manual of repentence. then david becomes the archeype for repentence. it doesn't need to be personal. "I like david, I don't like saul" Instead it's "I appreciate repentence and I want to do it correctly. what is a model, a role-model for this." that role-model has a name, Dahveed-HaMelech-Yisrael!
 

Tomef

Well-Known Member
why was he jealous of David?
Kind of a natural human response, David was much better at the things kings are often valued for. Saul seems to have had some kind of mental instability too, making it less likely he would be able to manage those emotions. He wasn’t given the option of stepping down gracefully, either. Throughout the story he is increasingly backed into a corner.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש

Tomef

Well-Known Member
I appreciate your kindness and sense of justice coming to saul's defense. it's not appeal if David is understood as the author if many psalms of repentence. the whole book of psalms can be read as a how-to manual of repentence. then david becomes the archeype for repentence. it doesn't need to be personal. "I like david, I don't like saul" Instead it's "I appreciate repentence and I want to do it correctly. what is a model, a role-model for this." that role-model has a name, Dahveed-HaMelech-Yisrael!
I don’t think you can copy that kind of thing - David wore his heart on his sleeve. A different kind of person trying to emulate that would be phoney.
 
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