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Did Saul get a bum deal?

Tomef

Active Member
Saul:
- never wanted to be king
- is impulsive and possibly mentally unstable
- gets thrown into dealing with complex and volatile situations and is expected to know what to do, even when his mentor (Samuel) shows up late
- gets no mercy for his mistakes

David:
- singleminded and ruthless, willing to do murder to get what he wants
- highly ambitious and focused
- is forgiven for his mistakes

Saul gets dragged into kingship and is eventually driven to suicide. David puts himself forward, pursues a violent career as king, does some abominable things and is called a ‘man after god’s own heart’.

Ultimately it seems to the be results that matter, rather than the window dressing about obedience to god. Saul failed at a job he didn’t want, David managed to unite squabbling tribes under one banner.

Is Saul treated unfairly in the biblical account?
 
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Tomef

Active Member
isn't this a consequence of repentence? So my question is, did Saul repent?
In both cases it was something that couldn’t be undone, and was a bit too specific to be repeated, so repentance wasn’t really the issue. They both regretted what they did. David’s behaviour was premeditated, Saul just lost it in the moment, and I think most people would consider murdering someone and taking their widow as your own wife to be a bit more serious than letting the troops keep some of the spoils.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
In both cases it was something that couldn’t be undone, and was a bit too specific to be repeated, so repentance wasn’t really the issue. They both regretted what they did. David’s behaviour was premeditated, Saul just lost it in the moment, and I think most people would consider murdering someone and taking their widow as your own wife to be a bit more serious than letting the troops keep some of the spoils.

1) are you able to direct me to the part of the story where Saul regretted?
2) if there is a significant difference between the manner which Saul regretted and David regretted that would dimish the notion that Saul was treated unfairly?
3) have you considered making a list of Saul's crimes compared to David's crimes and putting them side by side?
 

Tomef

Active Member
1) are you able to direct me to the part of the story where Saul regretted?
2) if there is a significant difference between the manner which Saul regretted and David regretted that would dimish the notion that Saul was treated unfairly?
3) have you considered making a list of Saul's crimes compared to David's crimes and putting them side by side?
That’s all pretty subjective, though. And regret and repentance aren’t the same thing.
 

Tomef

Active Member
1) are you able to direct me to the part of the story where Saul regretted?
2) if there is a significant difference between the manner which Saul regretted and David regretted that would dimish the notion that Saul was treated unfairly?
3) have you considered making a list of Saul's crimes compared to David's crimes and putting them side by side?
Here for instance:

“Sha’ul said to Sh’mu’el, “I have sinned. I violated the order of Adonai and your words too, because I was afraid of the people and listened to what they said. Now, please, pardon my sin; and come back with me, so that I can worship Adonai.”

But Samuel just walks away.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש

sending uriah to battle gauranteed that the marriage to bathsheba was annuled. that's Jewish law. it wasn't murder, it was a loophole. still not OK, but not as bad as described in the OP.
 

Tomef

Active Member
sending uriah to battle gauranteed that the marriage to bathsheba was annuled. that's Jewish law. it wasn't murder, it was a loophole. still not OK, but not as bad as described in the OP.
Ah I think that qualifies as murder. Instructing an officer to put some guy in the thickest part of the fighting, then withdraw everyone around him and leave him to a certain death. No ambiguity about that.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Indeed, Quran corrects a lot of this. It doesn't agree that Lot (a), Ismail (a), Haroun (a), the first Mariam (a), Talut (a), Sulaiman (a) deviated. In fact, the over all description of God's chosen in the Bible is at odds with Quran. This shows Quran doesn't actually just copy the stories, but makes major corrections where needed.

Talut (a) (Saul) is one of the Twelve Captains and Successors to Musa (a) to navigate children of Israel on the ships by God's Name.

Quran corrects the story of Talut (a) (Saul) and shows even that he was part of the family of Musa (a) which is one and same as the family of Haroun (a).

Part of the reasoning Quran shows, is that just as the founder must be guided (Musa (a) / Ibrahim (a) etc), so then do the successors are as important to believed in and we should not separate between them but see them as one and their task of keeping the nation guided is not easy task, and reviving the religion becomes harder when people deny the chosen guides out of following their clergy/scholars/priests.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
That’s all pretty subjective, though. And regret and repentance aren’t the same thing.

exactly. so... if david repented and saul did not, that's an important difference which might explain what you're observing. Not as a 'bum deal, but something else. what that "something else" is, could be a valuable lesson.

there's an interesting idea, about saul. he was the one in 1 sam 4 who brought the bad news to eli. charting the changes in saul over time I think would be interesting. what changed? what happened?
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Ah I think that qualifies as murder. Instructing an officer to put some guy in the thickest part of the fighting, then withdraw everyone around him and leave him to a certain death. No ambiguity about that.

can you bring the verses that describe it as such?
 
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dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Here for instance:

“Sha’ul said to Sh’mu’el, “I have sinned. I violated the order of Adonai and your words too, because I was afraid of the people and listened to what they said. Now, please, pardon my sin; and come back with me, so that I can worship Adonai.”

But Samuel just walks away.

compare that to psalms 51?
 

Tomef

Active Member
exactly. so... if david repented and saul did not, that's an important difference which might explain what you're observing. Not as a 'bum deal, but something else. what that "something else" is, could be a valuable lesson.

there's an interesting idea, about saul. he was the one in 1 sam 4 who brought the bad news to eli. charting the changes in saul over time I think would be interesting. what changed? what happened?
What I mean is neither of them could change what they did. Both expressed regret. Whether or not they repented in the sense that they wouldn’t have done the same thing again, in the same circumstances, is unknowable.
 

Tomef

Active Member
exactly. so... if david repented and saul did not, that's an important difference which might explain what you're observing. Not as a 'bum deal, but something else. what that "something else" is, could be a valuable lesson.

there's an interesting idea, about saul. he was the one in 1 sam 4 who brought the bad news to eli. charting the changes in saul over time I think would be interesting. what changed? what happened?
Well, for one thing he was out of his depth. He was pushed into a position of responsibility he didn’t want, and left to fend for himself.
 
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