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Featured Did Rumi Know?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Fool, Nov 11, 2017.

  1. Fool

    Fool Well-Known Member
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    “I searched for God and found only myself. I searched for myself and found only God.” - Rumi


    John 1:18
    No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.
     
  2. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    Interesting. For what it's worth, that's a strange paraphrase of John 1:18.

    The text of the original says:

    θεὸν οὐδεὶς ἑώρακεν πώποτε [;]
    God no-one has-seen ever-yet;

    μονογενὴς ὁ ὢν εἰς τὸν κόλπον τοῦ πατρὸς
    only-son who is in the bosom of-the father

    ἐκεῖνος ἐξηγήσατο
    that has-explained.

    Texts that add θεὸς after μονογενὴς (so reading 'only-son god' as in your quote) represent a later theology in which Jesus is being declared a god; that is, the extra word is a later Trinitarian gloss.
     
    #2 blü 2, Nov 11, 2017
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  3. Fool

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    but is it a problem; if man is the image/personification of God?
     
  4. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    I see the Abrahamic god as made in man's image; and as society has grown more sophisticated, so there's been a retreat from this beginning ─ first from being a member of the Canaanite pantheon to a monogod to a modern god defined largely by what [he]'s not, and no statement of what [he] actually is, on offer.

    Which means that if one engages in introspection, one may find identity between one's self and one's concept of God, but only because one wants to interpret the experience that way ─ an option available to some if they want it.
     
  5. sunrise123

    sunrise123 The sea remains the sea whatever the drop thinks
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    In the East, it is common for people to know and acknowledge those who have realized God. Rumi, Shams, Kabir, Ramakrishna, Milarepa and many others are on that list.

    In the Bible, as far as I know only Matthew 5:48 expresses this idea of people becoming God - realizing the state of the "Father":
    Be ye therefore perfect, even as your
    Father which is in heaven is perfect.
     
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  6. Jumi

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    I should read more Rumi, at least this quote seems spot on.
     
  7. Fool

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    alan watts in christianity and the myth.


    when one becomes self-conscious, or feels divided from something then man falls like adam and eve, like peter trying to walk on the water. when we become aware of self as an aspect of the whole, we raise the kundalini like buddha and the universal mind, like lifting up the serpent in the desert and mankind. if we believe that it can only happen through another as factual and historical truth, we are forever incapable of realizing it for self.

    when our countenance is down depressed we see ourselves as alienated from some thing. when we accept the myth, the belief, the theory, we become the personification/realization of that idea/concept. once the two become one there is no illusion of individuation except in form, I AM that i am.

    behold i come like a thief, blessed is he who stays awake lest he go like adam & eve and they should realize their shame.

    "'If you can'?" said Jesus. "Everything is possible for one who believes."
     
  8. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    That seems enormously exaggerated to me. Self-consciousness can lead to social awkwardness, and being divided from one's emotional support can require adjustment and rebalancing, but those are familiar phenomena that don't alter the cosmos.
    What's 'the universal mind'? If it's universal, why do we need cell phones?
    Since there are only two ways for things to happen, as an aspect of our physical mental processes, and as an aspect of objective reality, that doesn't look like an accurate statement about reality.
    Then either no one has ever believed, or that statement is wrong too.
     
  9. atanu

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    Vedantic saying is: The knower of Brahman becomes Brahman.
    ...

    The problem, I think, is that many begin to claim to have become Brahman, without qualifying. But at another level, at the essence level, there is only Brahman.
     
    #9 atanu, Nov 12, 2017
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  10. atanu

    atanu Member
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    The point is more profound. Let me use a metaphor. A wave may be conscious of being only a wave and forget entirely that essentially it is the ocean itself. The world views of a single wave and an ocean are not same.

    Because we have assumed separateness.
     
    #10 atanu, Nov 12, 2017
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  11. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    I take it the single wave is the individual and the ocean is the sum of individuals? While we have such phenomena as crowd behavior, social conformity and so on, there is no equivalent of a single entity, the overarching 'sum of all individuals'.
    Assumed? I can demonstrate separateness to you if you wish.
     
  12. atanu

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    How would a wave know the ocean?

    Waves are separate. That can be demonstrated. No big deal.
     
  13. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    A wave knows nothing.

    A human knows some things by instinct, and the rest by sensory input.
    Then how is it relevant to assert that we have 'assumed separateness'?
     
  14. Fool

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    low self-esteem in relation to other can lead to passive-aggressive behavior.


    Infinite Intelligence

    no-hiding theorem - information cannot be created or destroyed, it's simply transferred at the quantum level

    people don't 'need' cell phones. people need mindfulness

    either the belief is assimilated and practiced, or realized; otherwise it's just a tree bearing no fruit, or salt that has lost it's saltiness.

    there are people who believed they were christ, god, buddha.


    Mansur al-Hallaj

    Rumi

    Jesus

    Siddhartha Gautama

    Sai Baba

    et al

    and finally you, go on, make a wave.

    you're not just a drop in the ocean, you're a mighty ocean in a drop - rumi
     
    #14 Fool, Nov 12, 2017
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  15. Fool

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  16. atanu

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    Ocean-waves model is a metaphor.

    Replace 'assumed' by 'ignorant notion' if you wish. Or replace 'assumed' by 'apparent'.
     
  17. Fool

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    thank you and the eastern culture for the view
     
  18. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    That exists only in the imagination. It's not found in reality.
    I'm skeptical of many things, and the notion of 'information' as something different to 'data' is one of them.
    The owners of shares in Apple, Samsung, Lenovo and Huawei are solid in disagreeing.

    And if there really were a 'universal mind' then we really wouldn't need cell phones.
     
  19. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    And in my view not a helpful one. If I wish to make a clear statement, I make it as well as I can, and use metaphors only for backup.
    You say you understand separateness, and at the same time you assert it doesn't exist.

    I regret to report I think that's nonsense. Separateness is built into reality. The only place things that might be called universal are found are in strictly defined notions in physics eg 'the energy of the vacuum', where they're fully automated and anyway aren't accessible at the human scale.
     
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