Did Ramana Maharshi teach about Brahman and Maya?

[Martin]

I haven't come across any mention of these in his material so far. He seems to focus on the Self.

 

[ajay0]

"The mind is maya (illusion). Reality lies beyond the mind." ~ Ramana Maharshi

Ramana had equated the mind with its varying thoughts and emotions with Maya, and considered the Self or Reality to be beyond the mind. This is what all other teachers state as well.

Happiness of Being: The Teachings of Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi: Māyā is nothing but our own mind, so it seems to exist only when we seem to be this mind

 

[George-ananda]

I haven't come across any mention of these in his material so far. He seems to focus on the Self.

My understanding is Self=Brahman.

 

[Martin]

My understanding is Self=Brahman.

Probably. I was under the impression that "Self" was referring to Atman, though of course that's the same as Brahman in Advaita teaching.

 

[Martin]

"The mind is maya (illusion). Reality lies beyond the mind." ~ Ramana Maharshi

Ramana had equated the mind with its varying thoughts and emotions with Maya, and considered the Self or Reality to be beyond the mind. This is what all other teachers state as well.

Happiness of Being: The Teachings of Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi: Māyā is nothing but our own mind, so it seems to exist only when we seem to be this mind

I don't really understand his idea of the mind being "destroyed", given that the mind is experience. Wouldn't that be like permanent deep sleep?

 

[ajay0]

I don't really understand his idea of the mind being "destroyed", given that the mind is experience. Wouldn't that be like permanent deep sleep?

It is the Self or Awareness that is of a permanent nature. The mind with its thoughts and emotions are of a fickle and finite nature.

Most of us are not aware of this and continue to identify with thoughts and emotions propelled by desires instead of the blissful Self within.

Consequently they miss out on the inner bliss and have to rely on pleasure instead for their sense of happiness. This is similar to a rich man suffering from amnesia who calls an old, uncomfortable taxi instead of driving his own luxury car due to forgetfulness.

The enlightened stand on the Self alone and are content with its natural bliss. In Buddhism , the Self is similarly referred to as Buddha nature or no-mind or emptiness, imho.

Man’s search for happiness is an unconscious search for his true Self. The true Self is imperishable; therefore when a man finds it, he finds a happiness which does not come to an end. - Ramana Maharshi

Your true nature is awareness and not what your mind is producing. - Burt Harding


The more you identify with your mind, the further away you are from Your Self. - Sadhguru


Purpose of suffering is to connect you to your Self (Awareness). It indicates that you got carried away by all the transient things around you. - Sri Sri Ravi Shankar

Wouldn't that be like permanent deep sleep?

The Self is present during the dreaming state and deep sleep state too. In the former one is aware of dreams, and in the latter one is aware of having no dreams at all.

This ability to cognize this states of dreaming or no-dreaming implies that it is the Self is present during the dreaming state and deep sleep state without dreams.

 

[Martin]

It is the Self or Awareness that is of a permanent nature. The mind with its thoughts and emotions are of a fickle and finite nature.

Most of us are not aware of this and continue to identify with thoughts and emotions propelled by desires instead of the blissful Self within.

Consequently they miss out on the inner bliss and have to rely on pleasure instead for their sense of happiness. This is similar to a rich man suffering from amnesia who calls an old, uncomfortable taxi instead of driving his own luxury car due to forgetfulness.

The enlightened stand on the Self alone and are content with its natural bliss. In Buddhism , the Self is similarly referred to as Buddha nature or no-mind or emptiness, imho.

Man’s search for happiness is an unconscious search for his true Self. The true Self is imperishable; therefore when a man finds it, he finds a happiness which does not come to an end. - Ramana Maharshi

Your true nature is awareness and not what your mind is producing. - Burt Harding


The more you identify with your mind, the further away you are from Your Self. - Sadhguru


Purpose of suffering is to connect you to your Self (Awareness). It indicates that you got carried away by all the transient things around you. - Sri Sri Ravi Shankar



The Self is present during the dreaming state and deep sleep state too. In the former one is aware of dreams, and in the latter one is aware of having no dreams at all.

This ability to cognize this states of dreaming or no-dreaming implies that it is the Self is present during the dreaming state and deep sleep state without dreams.

I can assume (believe)
that the Self is present during deep sleep, but it's only an assumption because I have no awareness at all in deep sleep. It's a complete blank, like being under a general anaesthetic.

You could describe deep sleep as temporary cessation of mind and experience, but wouldn't the mind being "destroyed" result in a permanent absence of experience, and therefore a complete blank? That's the bit I don't understand.

 

[ajay0]

I can assume that the Self is present during deep sleep, but it's only an assumption because I have no awareness at all in deep sleep. It's a complete blank.

See, you are aware of having dreams in dream state and no dreams at all in deep sleep state. Who is it that is aware of having dreams or no dreams but a complete blank !

The perception of a complete blank is also an act of cognizance and shows that consciousness is active in the background.

In fact, deep sleep state is considered close to the state of Turiya, as there are no thoughts, emotions, images to blur the Self . This is why most people find dreamless deep sleep refreshing and peaceful while they find dreams, even pleasant ones, exhausting upon waking up.

You could describe deep sleep as temporary cessation of mind and experience, but wouldn't the mind being "destroyed" result in a permanent absence of experience, and therefore a complete blank?

The grosser mind is distinct from the Self which is subtler. The mind is just thoughts and emotions springing from past memories and imagination. They have a beginning and end, while the Self is of a permanent nature.

It is the vasanas that is destroyed. The vasanas or psychological impressions prompt desires which in turn prompts unconscious thinking and emoting ( based on past memories and future imagination) , and this blurs the ever-present blissful Self within and prevents its perception.

Hence the reason why in meditation, bliss is felt, because the thinking-emoting process is gradually reduced by witnessing, leading to unveiling or revealing of the blissful Self within.

The meditative mind also can think and emote when necessary and correctly, and not blindly or unconsciously under the influence of passion. All acts of crime are caused by intense desires (raag-dvesh) in the form of cravings ( lust, greed) and aversion (hatred).

 

[Martin]

See, you are aware of having dreams in dream state and no dreams at all in deep sleep state. Who is it that is aware of having dreams or no dreams but a complete blank !

The perception of a complete blank is also an act of cognizance and shows that consciousness is active in the background.

In fact, deep sleep state is considered close to the state of Turiya, as there are no thoughts, emotions, images to blur the Self . This is why most people find dreamless deep sleep refreshing and peaceful while they find dreams, even pleasant ones, exhausting upon waking up.



The grosser mind is distinct from the Self which is subtler. The mind is just thoughts and emotions springing from past memories and imagination. They have a beginning and end, while the Self is of a permanent nature.

It is the vasanas that is destroyed. The vasanas or psychological impressions prompt desires which in turn prompts unconscious thinking and emoting ( based on past memories and future imagination) , and this blurs the ever-present blissful Self within and prevents its perception.

Hence the reason why in meditation, bliss is felt, because the thinking-emoting process is gradually reduced by witnessing, leading to unveiling or revealing of the blissful Self within.

The meditative mind also can think and emote when necessary and correctly, and not blindly or unconsciously under the influence of passion. All acts of crime are caused by intense desires (raag-dvesh) in the form of cravings ( lust, greed) and aversion (hatred).

But I don't perceive or cognise the complete blank while in deep sleep. I'm only aware of the blank retrospectively, when I wake up and look at the clock. Time has apparently passed, but I had no awareness of it, or of anything else. It's like consciousness is in "standby mode", temporarily inactive, or switched off.

Anyway, going back to the earlier question: what does Ramana mean by the mind being destroyed?
Wouldn't the mind being "destroyed" mean the end of perceptions, thoughts and feelings, the end of any experience?
What do you think the mind being "destroyed" means , practically speaking? What specifically is destroyed, and what specifically ceases?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Ramana is a riddle for me. We all seek to understand 'Self' and 'self'. So what is new? His followers call him Bhagavan.
Perhaps by 'destruction of mind', he meant abandonment of prejudices.

 

[ajay0]

But I don't perceive or cognise the complete blank while in deep sleep. I'm only aware of the blank retrospectively, when I wake up and look at the clock. Time has apparently passed, but I had no awareness of it, or of anything else. It's like consciousness is in "standby mode", temporarily inactive, or switched off.

The fact that you are aware of a complete blank retrospectively, shows that there is someone who cognizes this even in deep sleep. If not, there would be no memory of it and would be a total amnesia where you would not be sure or certain of anything at all.

Same goes for the dream state, where you are aware of the dream taking place, especially nightmares which are then recalled in detail upon waking. This shows that consciousness is at the background.

And wouldn't the mind being "destroyed" mean the end of perceptions, thoughts and feelings, the end of any experience?

Actually, enlightened sages have stated that consciousness free from the grip of the mind perceives better, have a better judgement of things, and also finds the world more colourful and joyful.

This is also my perception when I have gone to high states of meditation or no-mind, especially in the park or beach or midst of nature.

 

[Martin]

The fact that you are aware of a complete blank retrospectively, shows that there is someone who cognizes this even in deep sleep. If not, there would be no memory of it and would be a total amnesia where you would not be sure or certain of anything at all.

Same goes for the dream state, where you are aware of the dream taking place, especially nightmares which are then recalled in detail upon waking. This shows that consciousness is at the background.



Actually, enlightened sages have stated that consciousness free from the grip of the mind perceives better, have a better judgement of things, and also finds the world more colourful and joyful.

This is also my perception when I have gone to high states of meditation or no-mind, especially in the park or beach or midst of nature.

There is no memory of deep sleep, it's a complete blank.

As for "no-mind", it appears to mean a mind free from grasping, not literally the absence of mind.
As I understand it, mind only ceases (temporarily) in deep sleep. That's why deep sleep is a complete blank, no consciousness of anything, and therefore no experience.

 

[Viswa]

There is no memory of deep sleep, it's a complete blank.

As for "no-mind", it appears to mean a mind free from grasping, not literally the absence of mind.
As I understand it, mind only ceases (temporarily) in deep sleep. That's why deep sleep is a complete blank, no consciousness of anything, and therefore no experience.

Hey Martin. How do you say it is "Complete Blank"? A memory of such experience?

 

[Martin]

Hey Martin. How do you say it is "Complete Blank"? A memory of such experience?

I know that time has passed by looking at the clock when I wake up, but there is no memory of anything during the deep sleep period itself. It's like being under a general anaesthetic.
Does your experience differ?

 

[Viswa]

I know that time has passed by looking at the clock when I wake up, but there is no memory of anything during the deep sleep period itself. It's like being under a general anaesthetic.
Does your experience differ?

Yup & Nope. I say it because I 'experienced' and you shared what that 'experience' is, and compare it and I agree & disagree with it.

How do you say it is "No memory of Anything" and "being" like "general Anaesthetic"? By experiencing it. Right?

I agree the above, but I disagree that there is another experience, an experience of "Bliss". When I get up, I totally feel that continuation of "Bliss", until "I" thought arise like "Where am I?" "What a blissful slept I had". Sometimes, I don't wake up from bliss, but from end of dream - and logically speaking the "deep sleep" switched over to "Dreamful state" because of Mind waking up, and so I wake up with pleasure/pain derived from that dream.

You know, we daily unite in "Oneness". And that is "deep sleep", that is "GOD" - the creator,maintainer,destroyer. We unite there daily by the shutting up of Mind and senses. As the images of 'me'/'you'/'world' (intellect,mind/senses) is shut, we don't experience there such, but we unite there with "GOD" with "ALL" without any identity/form. From that, everything created/arises and everything destructed/falls apart to "Oneness". We meet GOD everyday without even seeking. Even an atheist meet GOD/Sat-Chit-Ananda and everyone, every living being there and Blissfully remain. One who concentrated/sacrifice-work/devoted to GOD and liberated, not go anywhere, but to the "deep sleep" blissful state and never gets up again from that BLISS.

But what about "ME"? Who am I? I am the experiencer of Bliss,Dream,Waking states. I am beyond Creator, Maintainer and Destroyer. I am beyond GOD, and in each states I am called as GOD(Prajna), dreamer(Taijasa) and waker(Vaishvanara). Only one who in waking state calls the body/mind of the man sleeping as a sleeper. But when I am in deep sleep, I am blissful and everything originates from that BLISS and goes off to that BLISS, and person who has many spiritual experience, calls Me in that Blissful state as "GOD".

If one doesn't interested to find "Who am I?" or remain peaceful from the happenings of all three states - No problem. Seek the "BLISS" even in waking state by whatever experience/form/formless/eight-fold path/etc.. one seeks

 

[Martin]

Yup & Nope. I say it because I 'experienced' and you shared what that 'experience' is, and compare it and I agree & disagree with it.

How do you say it is "No memory of Anything" and "being" like "general Anaesthetic"? By experiencing it. Right?

I agree the above, but I disagree that there is another experience, an experience of "Bliss". When I get up, I totally feel that continuation of "Bliss", until "I" thought arise like "Where am I?" "What a blissful slept I had". Sometimes, I don't wake up from bliss, but from end of dream - and logically speaking the "deep sleep" switched over to "Dreamful state" because of Mind waking up, and so I wake up with pleasure/pain derived from that dream.

You know, we daily unite in "Oneness". And that is "deep sleep", that is "GOD" - the creator,maintainer,destroyer. We unite there daily by the shutting up of Mind and senses. As the images of 'me'/'you'/'world' (intellect,mind/senses) is shut, we don't experience there such, but we unite there with "GOD" with "ALL" without any identity/form. From that, everything created/arises and everything destructed/falls apart to "Oneness". We meet GOD everyday without even seeking. Even an atheist meet GOD/Sat-Chit-Ananda and everyone, every living being there and Blissfully remain. One who concentrated/sacrifice-work/devoted to GOD and liberated, not go anywhere, but to the "deep sleep" blissful state and never gets up again from that BLISS.

But what about "ME"? Who am I? I am the experiencer of Bliss,Dream,Waking states. I am beyond Creator, Maintainer and Destroyer. I am beyond GOD, and in each states I am called as GOD(Prajna), dreamer(Taijasa) and waker(Vaishvanara). Only one who in waking state calls the body/mind of the man sleeping as a sleeper. But when I am in deep sleep, I am blissful and everything originates from that BLISS and goes off to that BLISS, and person who has many spiritual experience, calls Me in that Blissful state as "GOD".

If one doesn't interested to find "Who am I?" or remain peaceful from the happenings of all three states - No problem. Seek the "BLISS" even in waking state by whatever experience/form/formless/eight-fold path/etc.. one seeks

I am interested in koham and so'ham, but for me it's important to distinguish between actual experience, and beliefs about that experience.

So what I actually experience is waking from deep sleep, not deep sleep itself. Do you see the distinction?

There is a peaceful feeling on first waking up, before the mind "gears up" and the memories flood back in. But I don't think that "proves" anything, either about the deep sleep state, or about koham/so'ham.

What you say is interesting, but it seems mostly assumption and belief, based on your understanding of the teachings.

 

[Viswa]

I am interested in koham and so'ham, but for me it's important to distinguish between experience, and beliefs about that experience.

So there is a peaceful feeling on first waking, before the mind "gears up" and the memories flood back in. But I don't think that "proves" anything, either about the deep sleep state, or about koham/so'ham.
What you say is interesting, but it seems mostly assumption and belief, based on your understanding of Advaita teaching

It's all upto you Martin.

Peace...

 

[Martin]

It's all upto you Martin.

Peace...

Of course. This is a good place to share ideas and experience, but not a good place to preach and prozelytise.

 

[Viswa]

Of course. This is a good place to share ideas and experience, but not a good place to preach and prozelytise.

Preaching and Prozelytise??

See Martin, when people went to Ramana Maharshi and asked many questions, he keep on replying to find "Who am I". Does it look prozelytise??

When Sankara went to all debates, he keep on making his view firmly to all the questions raised. Does it look prozelytise??

See, everyone is free here to do anything and share anything. It's all upto other one, to take it or leave it or praise it or condemning it or make fun of it.

You condemning it, it's fine. It's all upto you.

I searched and inquired in many ways, like you did/doing, and finally reached this point and I share it out of compassion for the questions raised. If no questions raised, then nothing is there to share for me. I have no one to change them and create a disciple/all funny things. If someone looks it valuable, let them take it. I don't have anything to do about it. If you don't think it's good/right, Leave it, and I apologize if the post worried you. But, there is nothing I'm proselytising - and so you don't waste your precious time in condemning (or praise or make fun) of it. Either take or leave, again it's for your own good, but you are free to do/say/share anything about it.

Take care.

Peace.

 

[ajay0]

There is no memory of deep sleep, it's a complete blank..

The complete blank itself is a memory. It denotes absence of dreams, and that itself is an act of cognizance.

In fact, it is my observation that the practice of good meditation before sleep ensures refreshing deep sleep without any dreams, unpleasant or pleasant.

Obviously meditation or thoughtless awareness seems to bring about mental hygiene and deep sleep as well. For me this was proof that meditation and deep sleep were somehow related, and of the similarity between deep sleep and turiya mentioned.

As for "no-mind", it appears to mean a mind free from grasping, not literally the absence of mind.
As I understand it, mind only ceases (temporarily) in deep sleep. That's why deep sleep is a complete blank, no consciousness of anything, and therefore no experience.

Much of our thinking and emoting stems from past memories and future imagination, all propelled by unconscious desires within.

The mind is but incessant thoughts and emotions stemming from raag-dvesh or grasping/craving or aversions.

As all vasanas or psychological impressions are extinct in enlightenment, so does the desires it projects, and so does compulsive thinking and emoting. Hence the no-mind or thoughtless awareness of the sage.

There are no incessant thinking and emoting of a compulsive nature to blur and obscure the blissful Self anymore.

In advaita, the Self is distinct from the mind.