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Featured Did Paul misquote scripture on purpose?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by New Paradigm, Dec 1, 2019 at 7:23 AM.

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  1. New Paradigm

    New Paradigm Member

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    Paul abused Scripture by taking passages out of context and giving them meanings that were never intended!

    To proof-text his doctrine, Paul lifted numerous Scripture passages out of their context and gave them meanings that were never intended. Some of these passages he gave a meaning that the context absolutely nullifies. The following is one classic example:

    One of Paul’s unique and fundamental doctrines states that absolutely no one is righteous. To proof-text his doctrine Paul cuts and pastes together no less than 7 snippets of Scripture and presents them as one:

    “There is none righteous, no, not one. There is none who seeks after God. They have all gone out of the way. They have together become unprofitable. There is none who does good, no, not one. Their throat is an open tomb; with their tongues they have practiced deceit. The poison of asps is under their lips; whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness. Their feet are swift to shed blood. Destruction and misery are in their ways; and the way of peace they have not known. There is no fear of God before their eyes.” Romans 3:10-18

    Each of every one of these snippets Paul took out of context and gave a meaning that its author never intended. The first snippet is our example of how Paul gave a meaning to a passage that only a verse or two later the author says something that completely destroys what Paul said about it. It was taken from Psalm 14. David here begins by speaking specifically of “fools”, who say in their heart “there is no God”.
    The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none who does good. The Lord looks down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there are any who understand, who seek God. They have all turned aside, they have together become corrupt. There is none who does good, no, not one. Psalm 14:1-3


    David is in no way referring to every human being with the term “the children of men”. He is speaking of the fools who say there is no God and is referring specifically to them as the children of men. It is among these that he says there is none righteous. We know this because he goes on to contrast these children of men with those he calls the generation of the righteous!
    Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge, who eat up MY people as they eat bread, and do not call on the Lord? There they are in great fear, for God is
    with the generation of the righteous
    . Psalm 14:4-5

    Imagine that, ... “the generation of THE RIGHTEOUS”!! Paul didn’t tell us about this part of the Psalm! So much for his doctrine that no one is righteous.
     
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  2. Rival

    Rival Noahide
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    Paul mistquoted and outright butchered many Tanakh verses. He also changed meanings straight to try to make them Christological where no normal person would see anything remotely like what he saw, such as allowing ploughing animals to chew the food as they plough, which Paul somehow remade into meaning financial support for church elders. It's a bizarre and twisted game he played, imo.
     
    #2 Rival, Dec 1, 2019 at 7:36 AM
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2019 at 11:37 AM
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  3. Alone

    Alone Active Member

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    I thought the scriptures were written by the holy ghost?
     
  4. Rival

    Rival Noahide
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    Depends which scriptures you believe in. Depends how many personalities you think the Holy Ghost has.
     
    #4 Rival, Dec 1, 2019 at 8:00 AM
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2019 at 8:09 AM
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  5. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    The Ebionites vanished a long time ago, so despite calling yourselves Ebionites its very questionable whether you actually suit the name. The ancient Ebionites aren't here to defend themselves, and we don't know all of their interactions with Paul. Encyclopedia Britannica says "...Little information exists on the Ebionites, and the surviving accounts are subject to considerable debate, since they are uniformly derived from the Ebionites’ opponents...."

    We don't know if Paul is one person or several; but most likely its several writing under a single name. Its common practice for this to be the case. What the Ebionites would think is divination without making assumptions about who the Ebionites are.

    That it is obvious is the evidence in Paul's favor. He's clearly writing in a non-literal form. The original Ebianites reportedly use a gospel like Matthew minus its geneology, so they too must be fond of non-literal usages. So far all you have shown is that Paul is a liberal Christian.
     
  6. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Veteran Member
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    Paul is writing in a different time period where people have a different understanding of the term 'Theos' which we today have poorly translated as 'God'. His readers would have been familiar with the source texts and known the Psalm and what it meant. They wouldn't have been using Paul's letter as a primary source for understanding it. This merely throws mud onto Paul without understanding his situation. Do not assume he is explaining the psalm to an otherwise ignorant audience. Instead make a case for that and demonstrate it. If Paul is really doing this then it should be more obvious.
     
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  7. Alone

    Alone Active Member

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    2nd Peter 1:20-21 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
    21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
    How do you know which is the right scripture to believe in there are so many?
     
  8. Theophilus (Theo) Book

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  9. Redemptionsong

    Redemptionsong Active Member

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    I think you're a bit hasty in your dismissal of Paul's teaching.

    In Adam all die. These are the generations of Adam. (Genesis 5:1) They die because they are sinful.

    In Christ there is but ONE generation. (Matthew 1:1) In Him all have life. The righteousness of Christ dwells in those who receive Christ by faith, and walk by the Holy Spirit.
     
  10. Theophilus (Theo) Book

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    Paul was correct in every way, for He wrote by Inspiration of the Holy Spirit of God.

    What is needed, is a recognition of the involvement of time. Time is that element of reality that changes all things.

    What may have been true at one time, may well be untrue at another. For example, Old testament scriptures tell us of at least 4 men who "saved themselves, by their own righteousness."

    But Paul is not telling us of that time, nor that place, He is telling us of a Gentile world who know only sinful and devious ways. They have not yet been introduced to the God of the Hebrew nation.

    If you will go back and re-read all that troubles you in the way you have described, you will see that with a new approach to time-related realities, what is real one time may be real another.

    Hope this helps.
     
  11. Rival

    Rival Noahide
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    From a Jewish POV this doesn't work. G-d introduced himself to non-Jews and the Jewish people welcomed Gerim Toshavim into Israel. Also, Noach, Avraham, Isaac, Jacob and so-on were not Jews. One could find G-d-fearers, people who had attached themselves to Israel but not converted, Noahides, all over the ancient world. G-d never forgot about non-Jews, as we see in the book of Job, Jonah and several of the other prophets. According to Jewish thinking, non-Jews are under the Covenant G-d made with Noach after the flood.

    So what Paul said wouldn't wash.
     
    #11 Rival, Dec 1, 2019 at 8:43 AM
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2019 at 8:49 AM
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  12. New Paradigm

    New Paradigm Member

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    So when the "Old Testament" says things that don't fully match the New Testament we should apply an evolutionary or progressive interpretation? Even when they are completely contrary?

    Let me paraphrase:

    Old Testament- we earn our righteousness by our actions

    New Testament- Righteousness is not earned but given solely based on a persons faith

    These are two completely contradictory viewpoints and your opinion is that men's knowledge of truth changes over time so the latter then trumps the former?
     
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  13. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    How do you know this: David is in no way referring to every human being with the term “the children of men”. He is speaking of the fools who say there is no God and is referring specifically to them as the children of men.

    Most of Psalms was borrowed from earlier Ugaritic text of the north coast Canaanites... perhaps this was a universal notion.
     
  14. Terry Sampson

    Terry Sampson ζει

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    Well, obviously, we should believe in the scripture which you are quoting because you wouldn't quote the wrong scripture, would you?
     
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  15. Terry Sampson

    Terry Sampson ζει

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    What's an Ebionite in 2019? Have you been raised from the dead?
     
  16. New Paradigm

    New Paradigm Member

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    The truth is I don't belong to any organized religion. My spiritual beliefs match more with the ancient Ebionites (but not fully by any means) than with any other religious sect so I say it simply to explain what angle I am coming from.
     
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  17. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Ebionites were the poor.

    The Jewish Roman World of Jesus | Nazarenes and Ebionites
    The Jewish Roman World of Jesusancient-judaism/nazarenes-and-ebionites/

    Later, when Christianity developed in the 3rd and 4th centuries and gradually lost its Jewish roots and heritage, largely severing its Palestinian connections, the Gentile, Roman Catholic Church historians began to refer to Ebionites and Nazarenes as two separate groups—and indeed, by the late 2nd century there might have been a split between these mostly Jewish followers of Jesus.
     
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  18. New Paradigm

    New Paradigm Member

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    1. Ebionites -- The First Christians
    The earliest Christians were commonly called Ebionites, meaning "the Poor."

    In G. Uhlhorn, "Ebionites," A Religious Encyclopaedia or Dictionary of Biblical, Historical, Doctrinal, and Practical Theology (3rd ed.) (edited by Philip Schaff) Vol. II at pages 684–685 [see PDF at this link], we read:

    Ebionites. This designation was at first like 'Nazarenes,' a common name for all Christians, as Epiphanius (d. 403) testifies (Adv. Har. xxix.1) It is derived from the Hebrew Ebion, "poor," and was not given, as Origen supposes, for their low view of Christ. Id. at 684.

    Over one hundred years later, in about 180 AD, Irenaeus -- a Bishop from Gaul (now known as France) -- clearly describes those who persisted in the designation as Ebionites rejected Paul and followed the Law, relying upon Matthew's Gospel. In Against the Heresies, 1.26 Irenaeus says:

    "Those who are called Ebionites agree that the world was made by God; but their opinions with respect to the Lord are similar to those of Cerinthus and Carpocrates. They use the Gospel according to Matthew only, and repudiate the Apostle Paul, maintaining that he was an apostate from the law. As to the prophetical writings, they endeavor to expound them in a somewhat singular manner: they practice circumcision, persevere in the observance of those customs which are enjoined by the law, and are so Judaic in their style of life, that they even adore Jerusalem as if it were the house of God." (Against Heresies 1.26.)

    This is comparable to Eusebius who in 325 AD wrote in Ecclesiastical History 3.27:

    "These men, moreover, thought that it was necessary to reject all the epistles of the apostle [Paul], whom they called an apostate from the law; and they used only the so-called Gospel according to the Hebrews and made small account of the rest."

    Eusebius thus acknowledges the Ebionites used more than just Matthew's Gospel, yet similarly to Irenaeus, Eusebius said they emphasized Matthew's Gospel.

    Thus, Professor James Dunn notes the original Jewish core of the church regarded Paul as an apostate: “The most direct heirs of the Jewish-Christian groupings within earliest Christianity [i.e., the early Jerusalem church] regarded Paul as the great apostate, an arch enemy,” citing Epistula Petri 2.3; Clem. Hom. 17:18-19. (James D. G. Dunn, The Cambridge Companion to St. Paul (Cambridge University Press, 2003) at 2.)

    This is comparable to Luke's account that in Acts 9:26 that the disciples at Jerusalem, which included the apostles, rejected that Paul was a true disciple of Jesus:

    26 And Saul, having come to Jerusalem, did try to join himself to the disciples, and they were all afraid of him, not believing that he is a disciple,... (YLT).
     
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  19. Theophilus (Theo) Book

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    Nope!
    Let me give you a different example, and see if it helps.

    Look to Zechariah 11:12-13
    "And I said to them, If it is good in your eyes, give my price; and if not, let it go. And they weighed my price, thirty pieces of silver. 13 And Jehova said to me, throw it to the potter, the magnificant price at which I was valued by them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and threw it to the potter in the house of Jehovah. [Trx from MT]

    "And I will say to them, if it be good in your eyes, give me my price, or refuse it. And they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver. 13 And the Lord said to me, drop them into the furnace, and I will see if it is good metal, as I was proved for their sakes." [Trx from Sept]

    "And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver. 13 And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD."[KJV]

    Mat 27:10 has a clause, "and gave them for the potter's field."

    There is no mention of a "potter's field" in Zechariah, and it is a major contribution to the prophecy of Mathew's quote. So we look further, to the source referenced by Mathew, Jeremiah.

    Jer 18:2-3
    "Arise and go down to the potter's house, and there thou shalt hear my words. 3 So I went down to the Potter's house, and behold he was making a vessel on the stones." [Trx from Sept]

    "Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words. 3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheel."

    "Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words. 3 Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels."[KJV]

    Jeremiah, who details for us how the prophet himself, went down to the Potter's house and observed how he worked the clay into vessels, and how he dealt with that which had become marred in the working. 19:2 speaks of the Potter, employed by the temple, as possessing a burial-place in the valley "Hinnom." Thus can we understand Zechariah's "casting of the money in the temple" as a renewal of purchase, dating back at least to the days prior to the exile.

    Jeremiah 19:1-2,10-11
    "So says Jehovah, go and buy a potter's earthen jar, and gather from the elders of the people, and from the elders of the priests.2 And go out to the valley of the son of Hinnom by the entry of potsherd gate. And there declare the words that I will speak to you." 10"Then you shall break the jar before the eyes of the men who with you, 11 and shall say to them, so says Jehovah of hosts. Even so I will break this people and this city, as one breaks the Potter's vessel that cannot be healed again. And they shall bury in Tophet, since no place is left to bury. [TrX from MT] [Trx from MT]

    "Then said the Lord to me, go and get an earthen bottle, the work of the potter, and thous halt bring some of the elders of the people, and of the priests. 2 And thou shalt go forth to the burial-place of the sons of their children, which is at the entrance of the gate of Charsith; and do thou read there all these words which I shall speak to thee:" 10 "And thou shalt break the bottle in the sight of the men that go forth with thee, 11 and thou shalt say, Thus saith the Lord, "Thus will I break in pieces this people, and this city, even as an earthen vessel is broken in pieces which cannot be mended again."[Trx from Sept]

    "Thus saith the LORD, Go and get a potter's earthen bottle, and take of the ancients of the people, and of the ancients of the priests; 2 And go forth unto the valley of the son of Hinnom, which is by the entry of the east gate, and proclaim there the words that I shall tell thee." " Then shalt thou break the bottle in the sight of the men that go with thee, 11 And shalt say unto them, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Even so will I break this people and this city, as one breaketh a potter's vessel, that cannot be made whole again: and they shall bury them in Tophet, till there be no place to bury." [KJV]

    The phrase "as the Lord had appointed me" [Mat 27:10] is from the Septuagint of Exod 9:12, which differs from the Massoretic text.

    Exodus 9:12
    "And the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he hearkened not to them, as the Lord appointed." [Trx from Sept]

    "And Jehovah hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he did not listen to them, as Jehovah had said to Moses."[Trx from MT]

    "And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses." [KJV]

    The fact of the matter is, the New testament writers referenced freely, whatever part or parts of the old testament they needed to make a point. And they did not see it as "mis-referencing" because they referenced manuscripts, not chapters and verses; which were an addition, adapted much later.

    And the sacred writings were most often grouped into Moses, and the law, and the prophets; not 39 books as we know it today. Also, they traditionally named the most prominent of the authors cited. It was the custom. The Christians had no trouble with it; it took later generations to begin to see "contradictions," and "inconsistencies," and "broken contexts" where none existed.

    Jesus Quoted Old Testament Prophets without regard to "context."

    Jesus, in Mathew 27:9-10 "references" Jeremiah, but "quotes" Jeremiah, Moses, and Zechariah, from a variety of "contextual" considerations; and is taken from both the Masoretic Text [MT] of the Hebrew, and the Septuagint of the Greek; to form a far different "context" in Mathew.

    Mat 27:9-10
    "Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value; 10 And gave them for the potter's field, as the Lord appointed me."[KJV]

    But, it is one thing for Jesus and the Apostles to take from variations of contexts to make a point, and quite another for theologians to attempt to make up their own "contexts" from misapplication of Old Testament passages that tell a far different story; or create "contexts" by mixing scripture quotes with quotes from non-scripture doctrines and creeds.
     
  20. Terry Sampson

    Terry Sampson ζει

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    Oh, ... okay, so you're an anti-Paul-inian, fake-Jew, who only uses one of the gospels.
     
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