1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

did paul consider his letters as scripture?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by waitasec, Jul 4, 2012.

  1. waitasec

    waitasec Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2010
    Messages:
    21,038
    Ratings:
    +475

    2 timothy 1:6 For this reason I remind you to fan into flame the gift of God, which is in you through the laying on of my hands. 7 For the Spirit God gave us does not make us timid, but gives us power, love and self-discipline. 8 So do not be ashamed of the testimony about our Lord or of me his prisoner. Rather, join with me in suffering for the gospel, by the power of God. 9 He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, 10 but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel. 11 And of this gospel I was appointed a herald and an apostle and a teacher. 12 That is why I am suffering as I am. Yet this is no cause for shame, because I know whom I have believed, and am convinced that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him until that day.

    ...

    3:10 You, however, know all about my teaching, my way of life, my purpose, faith, patience, love, endurance, 11 persecutions, sufferings—what kinds of things happened to me in Antioch, Iconium and Lystra, the persecutions I endured. Yet the Lord rescued me from all of them. 12 In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, 13 while evildoers and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God[a] may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.



    every time i ask someone to prove the bible is the word of god, i can count on this passage being brought up over and over again...

    so did paul consider his letters to be scripture god breathed or inspired by god?

    and when he is talking about the gospel in the 1st chapter, is it not the good news and not mark, matthew, luke, and john since there were other gospels that were in circulation like the gospel of thomas and judas?

    so why would anyone use this passage to prove that the bible we have today was what paul had in mind?


    for those who can and if you have some time...
    The Lost Gospels (BBC) Full Video « Cobwebs From An Empty Skull

    The Lost Gospels (BBC)
     
  2. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2004
    Messages:
    35,463
    Ratings:
    +8,595
    Religion:
    Judaism
  3. fallingblood

    fallingblood Agnostic Theist

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2009
    Messages:
    9,937
    Ratings:
    +488
    First, 2 Timothy wasn't written by Paul. It was most likely written after Paul died.

    Second, no, Paul did not think he was writing scripture. Even in 2 Timothy, the author isn't talking about the work they are writing, but the Hebrew Scriptures. The Hebrew Scriptures were the scripture. Paul was just writing letters to churches that had questions or problems.

    Third, you're right about Paul and his gospel. It was just the good news.

    Finally, people use this verse because they are desperate. They want the Bible to be accurate, and so they use circular logic to prove it.
     
  4. james2ko

    james2ko Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2010
    Messages:
    3,024
    Ratings:
    +179
    Religion:
    Christian


    No evidence Paul considered his writings to be scripture. Apparently, after Paul's death, Peter, the chief Apostle (Mat 10:2), placed Paul's writings on equal footing with existing scripture:

    2Pe 3:15-16 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. sincerly

    sincerly Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2011
    Messages:
    3,525
    Ratings:
    +48
    Originally Posted by waitasec [​IMG]
    so did paul consider his letters to be scripture god breathed or inspired by god? so why would anyone use this passage to prove that the bible we have today was what paul had in mind?

    There is evidence that Paul considered his epistles and teachings to be true and from Jesus. Gal.1:11-12, "But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught [it], but by the revelation of Jesus Christ."

    As James posted, that placed them as being "inspired"---the same footing as the other inspired scriptures. (Paul didn't consider himself worthy to be used of Jesus.---but did so gladly.)
     
    #5 sincerly, Jul 9, 2012
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2012
  6. Shermana

    Shermana Heretic

    Joined:
    May 15, 2011
    Messages:
    10,814
    Ratings:
    +323
    2 Peter's authenticity is as dubious as the Timothies. Peter likely said no such thing.
     
  7. sincerly

    sincerly Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2011
    Messages:
    3,525
    Ratings:
    +48
    "Likely" doesn't prove anything, but your own skepticism/bias/opinion.
     
  8. Rainbow Mage

    Rainbow Mage Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2010
    Messages:
    11,210
    Ratings:
    +863
    Religion:
    UU/Atheist
    We are reading other people's mail when we read Paul's letters :)
     
  9. Shermana

    Shermana Heretic

    Joined:
    May 15, 2011
    Messages:
    10,814
    Ratings:
    +323
    And what about your own bias and opinion and skepticism of the majority scholarly agreement? Even Bruce Metzger agreed that 2 Peter was dubious. Probably the main leader of the Conservative Bible scholars.

    The fact is, the objective reader is left to decide whether 2 Peter was written by Peter, which even the Early Church wasn't decided upon until centuries later, and to base their opinions on the reasons provided by the scholars. I fully agree sometimes scholars are wrong such as using an anti-prophecy bias as the only reason to justify a late dating. But the arguments against the Deutero-Pauline epistles are biased for a reason, just like how you're biased against their reasoning.
     
    #9 Shermana, Jul 9, 2012
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2012
  10. sincerly

    sincerly Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2011
    Messages:
    3,525
    Ratings:
    +48
    MY """skepticism of the majority scholarly agreement?""" is well founded upon contrary beliefs to the "Thus saith the LORD GOD" and the "IT is Written" examples for right living in LOVE to GOD and Fellow Beings.

    I have no problem with the second epistle of Peter being written by him or the message he presented. I see no conflict with the prophecy he is presenting, nor the a conflict with the OT.
    As far as Paul's epistles, he followed instructions from Jesus and the OT. (Gal.1:11-12; Acts 24:14)
     
  11. Shermana

    Shermana Heretic

    Joined:
    May 15, 2011
    Messages:
    10,814
    Ratings:
    +323
    So since you don't value anything to do with actual biblical scholarship, why not choose the Ethiopian Bible instead? Also, what verses are you referring to particularly? You don't think that they all had the same canon in the beginning do you? When it said "Thus sayeth the Lord" do you think it was writing about all books that would become the Roman canon?


    Well great. Whether it conflicts or not, if it's not by Peter, then it's not by Peter and it's not something he wrote. It may in fact conflict with the OT by agreeing with Paul's epistles.

    According to Paul. The Clash with James doesn't go away.
     
    #11 Shermana, Jul 9, 2012
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2012
  12. waitasec

    waitasec Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2010
    Messages:
    21,038
    Ratings:
    +475
    off topic.
     
    #12 waitasec, Jul 10, 2012
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2012
  13. waitasec

    waitasec Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2010
    Messages:
    21,038
    Ratings:
    +475
    :spit:
    thanks again for the laugh...
     
  14. yaddoe

    yaddoe Kyle Adams

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2011
    Messages:
    2,279
    Ratings:
    +42
  15. sincerly

    sincerly Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2011
    Messages:
    3,525
    Ratings:
    +48
    What is called Scholarship in most is higher knowledge of false information one learns from incorrect sources.
    You wrote "actual bible scholarship" when those so-called-scholars have no belief in GOD or the BIBLE which really would educate the one concerning ITS REAL LIVING GOD.

    Shermana, I would think you would readily know the only one necessary.
    Isa. 8:19-20, ".... should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead? To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them. "


    Yes, I do. The creator GOD has not varied from the very beginning wih HIS canon of truths.
    I believe the same Holy Spirit who inspired those prophets of old to write the corrective messages to those multiple back-sliding Israelites would work with those who were fighting for centuties to include spurious "books" to finally impress the right people to include the Books/writings which kept GOD'S TRUTHS INTACT.
    The work of "scholars" in the "modern translated versions" is again distorting the meanings with Bias which is contrary to GOD's Truths.(The "universal church with their early church fathers" began the distortions as was prophesied in Daniel's time--another thread)

    Shermana, that is full of "if's", "whether's", "may's". That is what you apparently want to believe, but the messages of Peter's and Paul's epistles do agree and with James as well.

    Peter saw and understood the twisting done to Paul's writings. The Prophets attested to the deviation from GOD's Scriptures the many times from Sinai.
    The "scholars" who are not staying with the message/truths given by GOD as one's guide---I have no desire to follow and be a partaker of their reward.
     
  16. sincerly

    sincerly Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2011
    Messages:
    3,525
    Ratings:
    +48
    You are welcome, however, it was your high-lighting which seems to distort my message/intent. And isn't such against the rules?
     
  17. waitasec

    waitasec Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2010
    Messages:
    21,038
    Ratings:
    +475
    no, i don't think it's against the rules to provide entertainment...
     
  18. ChristineES

    ChristineES Tiggerism
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2006
    Messages:
    25,055
    Ratings:
    +3,197
    Religion:
    Disciple of Yeshua.
    There was no Bible when Paul wrote his letters- just a bunch of scrolls and stories told word of mouth. I have a feeling he'd be pretty surprised that people are still reading his correspondence almost 2,000 years later. :)
     
  19. waitasec

    waitasec Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2010
    Messages:
    21,038
    Ratings:
    +475
    what an interesting idea..

    if he only knew....it's crazy...sort of like that guy who wrote the confederacy of dunces...he killed himself not knowing he what he wrote would turn out to be recognized as a masterpiece. goes to show you that when you do something, anything...do it without any apology...and paul seems to fit that bill, even though i disagree with most of what he stood for.
     
  20. Shermana

    Shermana Heretic

    Joined:
    May 15, 2011
    Messages:
    10,814
    Ratings:
    +323
    I specifically said that Bruce Metzger was the leader of the Biblical conservatives (i.e. believers) and that Bruce agreed 2 Peter is not by Peter. It's something even the Conservatives must concede to.



    That verse in no way means that the Roman authorities would keep God's word in canonicity, and I don't think you even understand the point of that verse, which if anything would make Paul's epistles void. Thanks for bringing up that verse, you have effectively shot down Paul by doing so. I don't think you intended to do this though. So I ask you again, why not the Ethiopian Bible? Why wasn't that Inspired?



    I agree, except that I disagree with what you think his canon is.

    That's a nice belief you got there. Too bad it doesn't trump actual debate.
    What you believe is God's truths that is. On what authority do you base your belief that the Spirit guided the organizers of the Canon? Do you agree that this would be a dangerous position to take if you are wrong? Would it be speaking against the Spirit?

    I've asked you twice to explain how they don't conflict, all you did was provide more examples of how they conflict and then insist they don't conflict.



    If you want to pretend that 2 Peter really wrote Peter because of your belief that the Spirit guided the canon organizers, that's fine, but if you don't want to debate the subject and you just want to insist it is what it is and you just want to write off all scholarship as going against "God's truth", you may want to stick to the DIRs where such prosleytizing is allowed.
     
    #20 Shermana, Jul 11, 2012
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2012
Loading...