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Featured Did Paul champion the Cause of Christ or corrupt it?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Dawnofhope, Oct 3, 2018.

?
  1. Yes, he championed it

    37.1%
  2. No, he corrupted it

    28.6%
  3. He changed Christ's message somewhat

    14.3%
  4. He made minor changes

    2.9%
  5. This poll does not reflect my thinking

    11.4%
  6. I don't know

    5.7%
  1. Dawnofhope

    Dawnofhope Veteran Member
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    Hi @metis ,
    Thanks for coming back and sharing your perspective. It’s great to have older, wiser heads along with the slightly younger and not so wise lol

    This is certainly a theme that often comes up on RF. We have the words of Jesus in regards to fulfilling the law, not breaking it (Matthew 5:17-20) and then the apostles completely redefined what laws should and shouldn’t be followed.

    As I understand it, most but not all Christian denominations believe Jesus is God incarnate. The exceptions include the Jehovah witnesses and Unitarians. The problem may arise with a misunderstanding of verses such as John1:1-3 that introduces the logos. Interesting Philo a Hellenised Jew and contemporary of Christ used logos to mean a mediator between God and man.

    What verses of Paul do you feel have contributed to the deification of Christ?

    Definitely to be taken figuratively not literally IMHO. I understand Paul made use of the obvious symbolism of Christ’s crucifixion to explain away God’s plan.

    Agreed.

    Agreed again. That’s all really helpful.
     
  2. Dawnofhope

    Dawnofhope Veteran Member
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    Actually I did propose that is one explanation.

    Audie and I not understanding each other so best to give it a break.
     
  3. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

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    I agree with it.
    Regards
     
  4. Dawnofhope

    Dawnofhope Veteran Member
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    The post resurrection narratives certainly have a gnostic feel with Christ moving in and out of solid objects, not being properly recognised by those who knew Him well.

    Obviously we have the apocryphal books that were rejected. I’m not aware of any hard evidence that supports the inclusion or removal of material from the canonical texts by the RCC.

    I believe there is a case for all three representations of God to be simultaneously true.

    Matthew certainly was the most Jewish. It was probably the last of the Synoptics to be written and had over 60 references to the Hebrew Bible.

    OT Quotations in the Gospel of Matthew

    It’s true that Christianity is a blend of what Christ taught, Jewish scriptures and apostolic teachings. What is meaningful to one may be meaningless to another. That is why Christ spoke in parables. To provide a space for us all to work it out for ourselves rather than have a set of laws. It therefore encourages our relationship to Christ by seeking meaning through Him. In that sense we have a devotional/mysticism that has similarities to Bhakti Yoga.

    The RCC certainly suppressed personal freedoms and at other times become a great barrier between man, Jesus and God.
     
  5. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    What you posted on the other thread about the Body of Christ is all from Paul see below). The Christian Church is called the Body of Christ but it has nothing to do with the actual teachings of Jesus. It is all about salvation as a free gift. This is attractive to Christians who want a free ride but it is not what Jesus taught. Imo, it is a selfish doctrine. “I am saved.” By contrast, Jesus said to deny self.

    Matthew 16:23-26 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

    Question: "How is the church the Body of Christ?"

    Answer:
    The phrase “the Body of Christ” is a common New Testament metaphor for the Church (all those who are truly saved). The Church is called “one body in Christ” in Romans 12:5, “one body” in 1 Corinthians 10:17, “the body of Christ” in 1 Corinthians 12:27 and Ephesians 4:12, and “the body” in Hebrews 13:3. The Church is clearly equated with “the body” of Christ in Ephesians 5:23 and Colossians 1:24.

    When Christ entered our world, He took on a physical body “prepared” for Him (Hebrews 10:5; Philippians 2:7). Through His physical body, Jesus demonstrated the love of God clearly, tangibly, and boldly—especially through His sacrificial death on the cross (Romans 5:8). After His bodily ascension, Christ continues His work in the world through those He has redeemed—the Church now demonstrates the love of God clearly, tangibly, and boldly. In this way, the Church functions as “the Body of Christ.”

    The Church may be called the Body of Christ because of these facts:

    1) Members of the Body of Christ are joined to Christ in salvation (Ephesians 4:15-16).

    2) Members of the Body of Christ follow Christ as their Head (Ephesians 1:22-23).

    3) Members of the Body of Christ are the physical representation of Christ in this world. The Church is the organism through which Christ manifests His life to the world today.

    4) Members of the Body of Christ are indwelt by the Holy Spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9).

    5) Members of the Body of Christ possess a diversity of gifts suited to particular functions (1 Corinthians 12:4-31). “The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ” (verse 12).

    6) Members of the Body of Christ share a common bond with all other Christians, regardless of background, race, or ministry. “There should be no division in the body, but . . . its parts should have equal concern for each other” (1 Corinthians 12:25).

    7) Members of the Body of Christ are secure in their salvation (John 10:28-30). For a Christian to lose his salvation, God would have to perform an “amputation” on the Body of Christ!

    8) Members of the Body of Christ partake of Christ’s death and resurrection (Colossians 2:12).

    9) Members of the Body of Christ share Christ’s inheritance (Romans 8:17).

    10) Members of the Body of Christ receive the gift of Christ’s righteousness (Romans 5:17).

    How is the church the Body of Christ?
     
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  6. Dawnofhope

    Dawnofhope Veteran Member
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    Everything has context. My purpose was to emphasise with particular references to Paul the true meaning of the resurrection:

    Jesus came from heaven:
    John 3:13, John 6:38, John 6:41-2

    The risen body of Christ is the Church:
    Roman 12:5 'one body in Christ'
    1 Corinthians 12:12-13 'baptised into one body'
    1 Corinthians 12:25 'no schism in the body'
    1 Corinthians 12:27 'you are the body of Christ'
    Colossians 1:18 'He is the head of the body'
    Ephesians 2:5-6 'members of His body, and His flesh'

    The spiritual resurrection:
    1 Corinthians 15:42-4 'it is raised in a spiritual body'
    1 Corinthians 15:50 'flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom'

    So St Paul uses the body of Christ as an analogy for the church.

    The necessity of salvation through Christ need simply be seen in historic context. One aspect is physical. So as Moses rescued His people from the captivity of the Egyptians, Jesus advised his followers to flee Judea when the time of desolation was near (Matthew 24:15-20). This occurred in 70 AD with the destruction of the Jewish temple and Jerusalem.

    Salvation could also be likened to those who boarded Noah’s ark and were spared the time of tribulation (Matthew 24:37-41).

    So recognition of the Manifestation of God for that day AND following His Teachings to Christians could attain the state of nearness to God or salvation.

    Bahá’u’lláh speaks of a similar reality in the opening verse of the Kitab-i-Aqdas:

    The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed. It behooveth everyone who reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the Source of Divine inspiration.

    The Kitáb-i-Aqdas
     
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  7. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Veteran Member

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    Jesus is not going to get Christians any mileage in this new Day of God, as your "first duty" quote from the Aqdas says: "and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed."

    During the Dispensation of Jesus, the Only Way to the Father was Jesus.

    John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

    Now, during the Dispensation of Baha’u’llah, the Only Way to the Father is Baha’u’llah.

    “No man can obtain everlasting life, unless he embraceth the truth of this inestimable, this wondrous, and sublime Revelation.”

    Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 183

    “Thou hast gained admittance into the Paradise of God’s Remembrance, through thy recognition of Him Who is the Embodiment of that Remembrance amongst men.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 303

    The following verses were true during the Dispensation of Jesus:

    John 11:23-27 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.” Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?” She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”

    But the Dispensation of Jesus Christ has been unconditionally abrogated by the Revelation of Baha'ullah, so now the Way to eternal life is Baha'u'llah.

    “Incline your ears to the sweet melody of this Prisoner. Arise, and lift up your voices, that haply they that are fast asleep may be awakened. Say: O ye who are as dead! The Hand of Divine bounty proffereth unto you the Water of Life. Hasten and drink your fill. Whoso hath been re-born in this Day, shall never die; whoso remaineth dead, shall never live.”
    Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 213


    Please note the word "never."
     
  8. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    Sure..........
    It's all there 'clear as day' for any who want to look for themselves.

    Paul bust his contract with the Jewish leaders (to put down the 'Yeshuite' followers) and took off on his own blinding brilliant idea.
    Paul knew (and cared) so little for the real Jesus and his life that he never bothered to mention much about what Jesus did, said or really stood for.
    Paul so wanted to be the Messiah himself that he actually wrote himself into that position, imo.
    Paul discarded much of what Jesus said and did for his own kind of agenda driven religion.
    There are over 1000 laws, rules and guides in the NT, and several hundred of these are Pauline!

    Yeshua just wanted the Temple and the Priesthood to quit being corrupted, fat, greedy, quisling hypocrites and actually do what was layed down in the scriptures, like supporting the people, especially the poor laws. How that got to the gentiles's thing is just ........ odd....... if folks would just investigate for themselves.

    But after 2000 years of it I guess it's pointless to call it now, it'll just have to grind to a halt in its own time, for totally different reasons to truth. :p
     
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  9. oldbadger

    oldbadger Skanky Old Mongrel!

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    Sure....
    Said a bloke called John in the 2nd century, who had no real idea about the true Yeshua, who was a Galilean human .......... amazing.

    We don't know who wrote Colossians and Ephesians but researchers don't think it was Paul.
    But what you've chosen there are typical Pauline 'click' sentences and phrases, without which Christianity would be somewhat lost.

    Yeshua and the Baptist were doing their best to deter folks from going anywhere near the place from the beginning. They were cleaning peoples' hearts and minds along the Jordan for that very purpose. But Yeshua definitely wanted to be the one to bring Justice to Judea himself, hence those verses.

    The 'get on this bus and do what you're told, or you won't live for ever' message was very clear, but millions of followers were kept away from the writings to save from too many questions.

    It was still dangerous (in England) to scrutinize the bible only 500 years ago.
     
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  10. Dawnofhope

    Dawnofhope Veteran Member
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    Ever had a Christian tell you that if you don’t believe in Jesus as he does, then you’re going to hell? As soon as those words have been spoken a line has been crossed. It’s as if a punch has been thrown. You just know whatever you do or say is probably not going to be well received. As Baha’is we could take exactly the same hardline approach. The Baha’i writings discourage it. We need to find a better way to have an elevated conversation that’s satisfying to both parties. A better conversation maybe discussing writings that you can both agree are of a sacred nature such as the gospels and assist each other to better understand the meanings.

    Follow thou the way of thy Lord, and say not that which the ears cannot bear to hear, for such speech is like luscious food given to small children. However palatable, rare and rich the food may be, it cannot be assimilated by the digestive organs of a suckling child. Therefore unto every one who hath a right, let his settled measure be given.

    ‘Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who hear it.’ Such is the consummate wisdom to be observed in thy pursuits. Be not oblivious thereof, if thou wishest to be a man of action under all conditions. First diagnose the disease and identify the malady, then prescribe the remedy, for such is the perfect method of the skilful physician.

    Bahá'í Reference Library - Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Pages 268-269
     
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  11. Marcion

    Marcion gopa of humanity's controversial Taraka Brahma

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    Does this mean that you think more or less in the same way but you just won't tell it people straight to their face? If not, then how would it be different?
     
  12. Dawnofhope

    Dawnofhope Veteran Member
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    Although Baha'u'llah makes it clear that its an obligation on each soul to recognise the Manifestations of God and follow the Teachings God has laid down, just as Muhammad, Christ and Moses did beforehand, He has also spoken these words:


    "How often hath a sinner, at the hour of death, attained to the essence of faith, and, quaffing the immortal draught, hath taken his flight unto the celestial Concourse. And how often hath a devout believer, at the hour of his soul's ascension, been so changed as to fall into the nethermost fire. Our purpose in revealing these convincing and weighty utterances is to impress upon the seeker that he should regard all else beside God as transient, and count all things save Him, Who is the Object of all adoration, as utter nothingness.”


    Know ye not why We created you all from the same dust? That no one should exalt himself over the other.
     
  13. Dawnofhope

    Dawnofhope Veteran Member
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    Colossians probably was written by Paul, Ephesians probably not, but both are contested.

    Agreed.
     
    #73 Dawnofhope, Oct 5, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2018
  14. Marcion

    Marcion gopa of humanity's controversial Taraka Brahma

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    So Bahai is just as fundamentalist as any fundamentalist Christian is. I think we should eradicate dogmatic thinking from all ideologies because it is very harmful and ignorant (an insult to human intelligence).
     
  15. Dawnofhope

    Dawnofhope Veteran Member
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    You may see it that way, but as a practitioner of Baha'i Teachings I don't see it that way at all.
     
  16. Marcion

    Marcion gopa of humanity's controversial Taraka Brahma

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    It is quite usual for people with a fundamentalist way of thinking to be blind to this type of ignorance.
    If they weren't, they would no longer want to support a fundamentalist type of ideology.
     
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  17. Dawnofhope

    Dawnofhope Veteran Member
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    It is usual for those outside Abrahamic traditions to misunderstand and harshly judge those within.

    Regardless of the authenticity of Baha'u'llah or for that matter Muhammad, Christ, Moses, Buddha or Krishna, I may reflect just one teaching of Baha'u'llah. You on the other hand without ever having heard the name Baha'u'llah may reflect ten teachings. So you could be a better Baha'i than I am without knowing it. Who of us is better or who is worse? Is Anandamurti a better teacher or Baha'u'llah? Only God if He exists can truly judge the soul of another and know our true worth. It is for me to concentrate on the work I need to do in this life. That means treating others with kindness and respect. A true Baha'i should avoid ether giving offence or taking offence. I choose the spiritual path that I perceive works best for me as you do in your life.
     
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  18. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    Our sophomores here are most impressed with
    Paul.

    I am equally impressed with Joseph Smith and his
    gold books of the Book of Mormon.

    As for Paul, I see something about him that
    is as phony as Cal Worthington and his Dog Spot.
    (see youtube).

    Or Joseph Smith.

    LIke, how can anyone possibly believe such
    a ridiculous story? I've asked, a time or more.

    Those who are willing to oblige come up with
    dazzlingly stupid ways to rationalize, be in
    the gold books or the snake story.

    I should have kept a record of all the ways
    people have "explained" the snake story,
    or the gold books.
     
  19. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    I think you're over-rating me but thanks anyway.

    I think Jesus felt like Hillel did that the main purpose of the Law was to create a more compassionate and just people and, eventually, world. However, where they differed is that Jesus took it to the next step by downplaying the specific following of each of the laws and just putting it all in one package: the "law of love".
    I wish I had the time to do that but I really don't.

    Thanks, but let me just tell ya that I am still very much a "work in progress".

    Take care and keep up the excellent posting. We need more people like you here.
     
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  20. Audie

    Audie Veteran Member

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    Maybe would even not do things like trying to
    find a way that there is something wrong with me,
    that I see a whole string of absurd details in the
    Paul / snake story, and display no willingness at
    all to even hear them.

    I think there is some sort of thing about 3 monkeys
    that applies there.
     
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