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Did Marcion Write/Edit Paul's Letters?

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Kurt31416

Active Member
INTRODUCTION:

The "genuine" letters of Paul first show up as a complete edited set. Some letters are more than one combined. All have titles Paul didn't give them. Someone collected and edited them. There are no other sources other than from that one single editor. The first physical copies of the Five Gospels are all tiny scraps, but the first physical copy of Paul's letters, P46, is an almost complete collection, a.most totally modern, same titles, and like all others, virtually the same order.
So, who was this one single editor that had perfect knowledge of the letters of Paul, including all the "genuine" ones and none of the non-genuine ones? Well, who first mentioned them?


MARCION PULLS THE RABBIT OUT OF THE HAT:

The first appearance of the collected set of "genuine" letters of Paul was in Marcion's Gnostic Bible, in 130AD. We don't have a copy, but so many early Christian writers quoted it, that they have reproduced the whole thing. Apparantly the only difference is minor parts about the Hebrew Bible/Old Testament. You see, Marcion thought the Hebrew God was a different God than the kindly Father of Jesus. It was the bad creator god and supported by the suffering he could see around him, this was hell. But apparantly the changes were minor, and far from clear which was the original.

These God is the bad god, and this is Hell, second century Gnostics were serious competition for the early Christians, and it's often claimed the notion of a Christian Bible was to counter the Gnostic Bible of Marcion. When the Christians used the letters of Paul in their Bible, it was the same letters, used in the Gnostic Bible of Marcion two centuries earlier.


HOW COME THE GOSPEL WRITERS WERE CLUELESS, & MARCION HAD PERFECT KNOWLEDGE?:

It's accepted as gospel that Marcion's collected set are the genuine Paul, and the Paul of Acts/Luke, often in the first person, isn't the genuine Paul. The reason, it doesn't have that special Paul flavor only found in Marcion's collected set. It seems only reasonable to wonder of that special flavor only found in Marcion's set, and always found in Marcion's set, came from Marcion, not Paul.

Now, if Marcion didn't collect and edit those letters, and he got them from someone else, that puts it back even further, to the turn of the century. So, how come no one else knew about them or had a copy of one, other than Marcion?

Matthew, Luke and John were probably written near the turn of the century, how come they don't have anything of that special Paul flavor? And Acts, apparently written shortly after the turn of the century, how come Luke had no clue about the "genuine" Paul of Marcion's set?

One option sure wins the Occam's razor test. It's Marcion that collected and edited them, and it's Marcion's ideas that make them "genuine", Marcion's jargon.
"Mark does not use any of Paul's characteristic language, nor does Mark reflect any substantial and thouroughgoing understanding of Paul's complex theology. One might list a dozen Pauline themes missing in Mark, from the idea of justification to the concept of the church as the body of Christ."
Stephan Davies, New Testament Fundamentals, p.125

Yet, Mark clearly carries Paul's water in other ways. Both's central theme, that the disciples never get, is that the miracles and sayings don't matter, the only thing that matters is the good thing of killing Jesus.

Perhaps we shouldn't assume Mark and Luke and all the others were wrong about Paul, and Marcion's version was right. Mark was a lot closer to the original than Marcion.


YEAH, MARCION HAD PERFECT KNOWLEDGE OF ALL TEXT TYPES TOO:

Well, all these New Testament writings were one text type or another. Subtle differences as they all evolved. Different families. So, what text type is this amazing 130CE Marcion version? Seems that would be informative. Sure is. Turns out, it's all of them.

"Another note about Marcion and the text-type issue comes from
Gunther Zuntz in his "The Text of the Epistles." After examining
Marcion's variations, Zuntz said: "The most striking observation is
that more often than not the delimitations of the so-called 'texts,'
whether 'Western' or 'neutral' or 'Byzantine,' are disregarded. The
Western evidence is split in seventeen out of our thirty-seven
instances...in particular D F G [the 'Western' witnesses in the
Epistles] are opposed by the other Western witnesses agreeing with
Marcion in nine instances....Individual manuscripts of no particular
note desert the Byzantine standard to side with Marcion..., and
the 'Alexandrians' are none too often united in supporting....or
opposing....him." (ppg 239-240). In other words, Marcion's text took
in all types of "texts," even the Byzantine which wasn't even in
existence at his time, according to modern scholarship. (Guntz was
not a supporter of the Byzantine text. He believed
the "Ecclesiastical" text was formed much later and that it was
secondary to the "Western" and "Alexandrian" texts.)"

http://www.purewords.org/kjb1611/html/kjvdeba.htm

So, unless the Christians got Marcion wrong, in which case his may have been dead identical, Marcion didn't just have perfect knowledge of all genuine letters and only genuine letters, with the authors of the Gospels totally clueless of any of them, but Marcion had numerous copies of all the letters from all over the Empire!


CONCLUSIONS:

Occam's razor cries out to us. Far more simple to just say Marcion is the author.
Scholars traditionally judge the Paul of the Gospels/Acts by the Paul of Marcion's set of letters. The real Paul is staring us in the face. Far better to try to edit out Marcion's heavy editing, by using the Paul of the Gospels/Acts as a judge.
 

Oberon

Well-Known Member
Occam's razor cries out to us. Far more simple to just say Marcion is the author.
No. Other texts prior to Marcion (e.g. other epistles) show an awareness of Paul. Furthermore, Paul writings were clearly very oriented in Judaic thought. Marcion believed the Jewish god was not the god of Jesus. Paul didn't.
 

Kurt31416

Active Member
No. Other texts prior to Marcion (e.g. other epistles) show an awareness of Paul.

No awareness of that special Jargon of Marcion's set, but they sure have an awareness of Paul. From Mark and Paul's killing Jesus is all that matters, to Act's explicit knowledge, reporterd by Luke.

Furthermore, Paul writings were clearly very oriented in Judaic thought. Marcion believed the Jewish god was not the god of Jesus. Paul didn't.

Paul was oriented towards the Jewish writings alright, and he spent most of his time condenming them, saying it was false. Any god he supported was a very different one.
 

Oberon

Well-Known Member
1) Marcion's canon does not match up to p46.
2) Marcion rejected the entire "old testament." He included only Luke and some letters. Paul clearly does not reject the god of the old testament
3) Other author's prior to Marcion show an awareness of Paul's letters.
4) Nowhere is there any suggestion that Marcion wrote anything. All the information we have about Marcion comes from people who also knew Paul's letters.
 

Kurt31416

Active Member
1) Marcion's canon does not match up to p46.

It's damn close. No one said it's exact.

2) Marcion rejected the entire "old testament." He included only Luke and some letters. Paul clearly does not reject the god of the old testament

He supports this God of Jesus, the god of the Hebrew Bible/Old Testament, he says was wrong about just about everything. The letters aren't full formed like Marcion's and especially later Gnostics' completely separate gods, but compatible with it. Who knows, Paul's hostility to the Hebrew Bible is probably where Marcion got the idea.

3) Other author's prior to Marcion show an awareness of Paul's letters.

Such as? Slim pickings before 130CE.

4) Nowhere is there any suggestion that Marcion wrote anything. All the information we have about Marcion comes from people who also knew Paul's letters.

They all lived long after Marcion, and that their version of Paul's letters is about the same is the point.

I eagerly await any information about those before 130CE that knew about those letters, sincerely.

Rick
 

Oberon

Well-Known Member
1) Marcion's canon does not match up to p46.

It's damn close. No one said it's exact.

There's no reason to assume he had any influence on it then.


He supports this God of Jesus, the god of the Hebrew Bible/Old Testament, he says was wrong about just about everything. The letters aren't full formed like Marcion's and especially later Gnostics' completely separate gods, but compatible with it. Who knows, Paul's hostility to the Hebrew Bible is probably where Marcion got the idea.

Paul frequently quotes from the hebrew bible. Marcion rejected it entirely.

3) Other author's prior to Marcion show an awareness of Paul's letters.

Such as? Slim pickings before 130CE.


The other epistles for one.
 

Kurt31416

Active Member
There's no reason to assume he had any influence on it then..

Because the two aren't exactly the same, Marcion showing up with it first doesn't mean he had anything to do with it?

Not convincing.


Paul frequently quotes from the hebrew bible. Marcion rejected it entirely..

Both condemn it. It's the bad guy to both of them. If Paul's quoting it, overwhelmingly he's saying it's false.

The other epistles for one.

No they don't. Where?
 

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
Both condemn it. It's the bad guy to both of them. If Paul's quoting it, overwhelmingly he's saying it's false.

Paul nowhere condemns the Old Testament. He says it's divine and good. Rather, he argues it must be reinterpreted in light of Jesus' resurrection.
 

Oberon

Well-Known Member
Ok, let's look at the OP and see what it has to offer:




INTRODUCTION:

The "genuine" letters of Paul first show up as a complete edited set. Some letters are more than one combined. All have titles Paul didn't give them. Someone collected and edited them. There are no other sources other than from that one single editor. The first physical copies of the Five Gospels are all tiny scraps, but the first physical copy of Paul's letters, P46, is an almost complete collection, a.most totally modern, same titles, and like all others, virtually the same order.

This simply isn't true. p46 has Hebrews, which Paul didn't write. So it isn't a complete set of Paul's letters. It also contains Ephesians, Colossians, and 2 Thessalonians, which are debated letters. Most importantly, it doesn't match Marcion's canon.

Apparantly the only difference is minor parts about the Hebrew Bible/Old Testament.

By "minor" you mean it wasn't there? Marcion included luke and a few letters. How is that a "minor" difference"


When the Christians used the letters of Paul in their Bible, it was the same letters, used in the Gnostic Bible of Marcion two centuries earlier.

Only not. Because the christians included the pastoral letters. Also, Marcion edited the letters. See Ernest Evans Tertullian Adversus Marcion Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1972.

It's accepted as gospel that Marcion's collected set are the genuine Paul, and the Paul of Acts/Luke, often in the first person, isn't the genuine Paul.
By whom? Nobody thinks Paul wrote Acts/Luke. And the first person isn't from Paul's perspective. Moreover, Marcion edited Paul's letters.

Now, if Marcion didn't collect and edit those letters, and he got them from someone else, that puts it back even further, to the turn of the century. So, how come no one else knew about them or had a copy of one, other than Marcion?

The did. Clement mentions the Pauline epistes. Ignatius copied his exact words. Polycarp too knew of the epistles.


how come Luke had no clue about the "genuine" Paul of Marcion's set?

Possibly because Marcion had the advantage of being at a later stage when Paul's letters achieved wider circulation? And we have no idea about whether or not Luke knew of Paul's letters, or which ones.
 
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Kurt31416

Active Member
Ok, let's look at the OP and see what it has to offer:
This simply isn't true. p46 has Hebrews, which Paul didn't write. So it isn't a complete set of Paul's letters. It also contains Ephesians, Colossians, and 2 Thessalonians, which are debated letters. Most importantly, it doesn't match Marcion's canon.

Marcion didn't use Hebrews, he only used the "genuine" letters. P46 is incomplete, some are missing, but what's there matches. And whether some want to claim some aren't from Paul, Marcion's copies are the only options that are. That's why I put the word "genuine" in quotation marks. Some think all are genuine some think less than all, but it's the only ones considered genuine.

By "minor" you mean it wasn't there? Marcion included luke and a few letters. How is that a "minor" difference"

Luke was heavily edited, but we aren't talking about Luke.

Only not. Because the christians included the pastoral letters. Also, Marcion edited the letters. See Ernest Evans Tertullian Adversus Marcion Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1972.

Few scholars outside Billy Bob's Bible College think the Pastorals are by Paul. And they aren't in the collected sets. Whether Marcion or the Christians edited the letters isn't clear. Since Marcion was first, it would require evidence that the Christians didn't edit it.

By whom? Nobody thinks Paul wrote Acts/Luke. And the first person isn't from Paul's perspective. Moreover, Marcion edited Paul's letters.

Luke wrote Acts, but the Paul in it is more genuine than Marcion's version of Paul in the letters. And yes, being first person, Luke is claiming she didn't write them. Is it a majority position with scholars that the letters are by Marcion, no, it's clearly stated it's not, but one thing's for sure, any scholar saying so in any religious college and many that aren't, would be instantly fired for saying the Christian Paul and his peculiar letters, most of the New Testament, come from the hated Gnostics.

The did. Clement mentions the Pauline epistes. Ignatius copied his exact words. Polycarp too knew of the epistles.

False, none of them had a clue about the letters of Paul in Marcion's Bible, later used by the Christians.

Possibly because Marcion had the advantage of being at a later stage when Paul's letters achieved wider circulation? And we have no idea about whether or not Luke knew of Paul's letters, or which ones.

There's no evidence whatseover that anyone saw those letters before Marcion.
 

Oberon

Well-Known Member
Marcion didn't use Hebrews, he only used the "genuine" letters. P46 is incomplete, some are missing, but what's there matches.

Except that p46 had hebrews and Marcion didn't. As for "genuine" letters, Marcion does include Ephesians, 2 Thessalonians, and Colossians which are contested (i.e. not all scholars agree Paul wrote them).





Luke was heavily edited, but we aren't talking about Luke.

So was Paul.





Luke wrote Acts, but the Paul in it is more genuine than Marcion's version of Paul in the letters. And yes, being first person, Luke is claiming she didn't write them.
What basis is there for this position?

but one thing's for sure, any scholar saying so in any religious college and many that aren't, would be instantly fired for saying the Christian Paul and his peculiar letters, most of the New Testament, come from the hated Gnostics.

Thankfully, though, the bulk of research on the NT comes from colleges that don't fire there staff for having anti-christian positions.

False, none of them had a clue about the letters of Paul in Marcion's Bible, later used by the Christians.

Clement wrote a homily on 1 Cor 15. Also

"Clement's testimony concerning several of the Pauline Epistles is more definite. In chap xlvii he invites his readers in Corinth to consult the epistle which 'the blessed apostle Paul' had sent them...Elsewhere Clement appears to make definite allusions to several other Epistles of Paul, including Romans, Galations, Philippians, and Ephesians." p. 42

As for Ignatius

"Throughout his epistles Ignatius frequently uses language that echoes characteristic phrases found in the Pauline writings....Again and again he makes use of phrases drawn from Paul's vivid description of himself when he writing to the Corinthians: 'Last of all, as to one untimely born, he [Christ] appeared to me. For I am the least of the apostles, unfit to be called an apostle because I persecuted the church of God. But by the grace of God I am what I am (1 Cor. xv. 8-10)." These words obviously made such an impression on Ignatius that he includes echoes from the passage in five of his letters." p. 45


As for Polycarp:

"By way of summary, the short Epistle of Polycarp contains proportionately far more allusions to the writings of the New Testament than are present in any other of the Apostolic Fathers. He certainly had a collection of at least eight Pauline Epistles (including two of the Pastorals), and was acquainted as well with Hevrews, 1 Peter, and 1 John." p. 62.

Metzter, Bruce M. The Canon of the New Testament: Its Origin, Development, and Significance. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1987.

Nice try, though.
 
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Kurt31416

Active Member
Except that p46 had hebrews and Marcion didn't. .

Yep, and Marcion only had the "genuine" ones. The Christians added Hebrews, but since Marcion didn't create/edit it, it's not considered from Paul.

As for "genuine" letters, Marcion does include Ephesians, 2 Thessalonians, and Colossians which are contested (i.e. not all scholars agree Paul wrote them)..

You're repeating yourself. Many do consider them genuine, and the only ones generally under consideration for being genuine are from Marcion. That's why I put "genuine" in quotation marks.

So was Paul. .

False.

What basis is there for this position?.

It's what we are discussing, it's the position of post 1 being presented. Sheesh.

Thankfully, though, the bulk of research on the NT comes from colleges that don't fire there staff for having anti-christian positions..

Perhaps it's a majority and perhaps it isn't, but even taking the relatively mild position of the Jesus Seminar gets them persecuted, if not fired. They are all very careful what they say.

Clement wrote a homily on 1 Cor 15. Also

"Clement's testimony concerning several of the Pauline Epistles is more definite. In chap xlvii he invites his readers in Corinth to consult the epistle which 'the blessed apostle Paul' had sent them...Elsewhere Clement appears to make definite allusions to several other Epistles of Paul, including Romans, Galations, Philippians, and Ephesians." p. 42.

Nope, not a trace of the jargon of Marcion's Paul, or reference to the letters, just a bunch of hand waving..

As for Ignatius

"Throughout his epistles Ignatius frequently uses language that echoes characteristic phrases found in the Pauline writings....Again and again he makes use of phrases drawn from Paul's vivid description of himself when he writing to the Corinthians: 'Last of all, as to one untimely born, he [Christ] appeared to me. For I am the least of the apostles, unfit to be called an apostle because I persecuted the church of God. But by the grace of God I am what I am (1 Cor. xv. 8-10)." These words obviously made such an impression on Ignatius that he includes echoes from the passage in five of his letters." p. 45 .

That was all added centuries later.

As for Polycarp:

"By way of summary, the short Epistle of Polycarp contains proportionately far more allusions to the writings of the New Testament than are present in any other of the Apostolic Fathers. He certainly had a collection of at least eight Pauline Epistles (including two of the Pastorals), and was acquainted as well with Hevrews, 1 Peter, and 1 John." p. 62.

Metzter, Bruce M. The Canon of the New Testament: Its Origin, Development, and Significance. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1987..

We have no clue what Polycarp said or didn't say. That was claimed long after Marcion. Is Metzter still alive? He was in his nineties last time I checked. Some people you just have to outlive because they will never change.

Nice try, though.

My thinking exactly.
 

Oberon

Well-Known Member
Nope, not a trace of the jargon of Marcion's Paul, or reference to the letters, just a bunch of hand waving..

Wrong.



That was all added centuries later.

You evidence?



We have no clue what Polycarp said or didn't say.

We have his epistle, which was written prior to Marcion.

Is Metzter still alive? He was in his nineties last time I checked. Some people you just have to outlive because they will never change.

Metzger was THE textual critic of the 20th century. Princeton professor. Lots of awards and degrees.
 
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Oberon

Well-Known Member
"As for the epistles, Marcion removed whatever he judged were interpolations- that is, anything that did not agree with his understanding of what Paul should have written. Thus, Gal iii. 16-iv. 6 was deleted because of its reference to Abraham and his descendants; and 2 Thess. i. 6-8, beacuse God is not concerned with 'flaming-fire' and punishment." p. 93

Metzter, Bruce M. The Canon of the New Testament: Its Origin, Development, and Significance. Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1987.
 

Kurt31416

Active Member
So, Metzger did finally pass away? He would have to be like 110 now wouldn't he?

Yep, an older generation, that formed all his opinions, set in concrete, never to be changed, long before Thomas was known.
 

logician

Well-Known Member
I think it iws well know that Paul(whoever he was) was not the writer of a number of books attributed to him. The schizophrenic style of the writings indicated at least 2 different peoplle involved.
 

Kurt31416

Active Member
I think it iws well know that Paul(whoever he was) was not the writer of a number of books attributed to him. The schizophrenic style of the writings indicated at least 2 different peoplle involved.

Yep, and the #1 nutcase, was Marcion the Gnostic, and seems he wrote and/or edited most of the New Testament.

And people wonder why claiming things like that would get you fired from Billy-Bob's Bible College. Or find pressure at any college.
 

logician

Well-Known Member
Yep, and the #1 nutcase, was Marcion the Gnostic, and seems he wrote and/or edited most of the New Testament.

And people wonder why claiming things like that would get you fired from Billy-Bob's Bible College. Or find pressure at any college.

I've always wondered why writings from UNKNOWN writers that wrote the gospels and other books of the NT are given so much credit for authenticity. Usually, knowing who the writer is (a well known historian perhaps), when he wrote it, why he wrote it, and whether it was tampered with are all legitimate tests for authenticity, and then you still don't really know if was a fictional account written on a bad day for the author.
 
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