Did Lot really ever live in Sodom

[Arlanbb]

Gen 13 and 18 tells the story about Abraham and Lot, their seperation and Lot living in Sodom. Acording to most biblical historians Abraham was born about 1950 BC and it was around 1850 BC when Lot departed Sodom before it turned into flames.

There is one big problem. Acording to archaeological evidence the town of Sodom had people living in it from about 3500 BC down to 2300 BC when it burned down. During the time that Lot lived in Sodom in 1850 BC no body was living in Sodom, it was a completely dead town. It was a dead town clear down to the time when the Romans lived there.

How is it that Lot was to have lived in a town that had no people in it during this time of Lots life and people had not lived there for about 500 years??? From the evience it sounds like the story of Lot in Sodom is not true. What is your opinion?

 

[Mr. Hair]

Acording to most biblical historians Abraham was born about 1950 BC and it was around 1850 BC when Lot departed Sodom before it turned into flames.

Wait, what? What biblical historians are these?

There is one big problem. Acording to archaeological evidence the town of Sodom had people living in it from about 3500 BC down to 2300 BC when it burned down. During the time that Lot lived in Sodom in 1850 BC no body was living in Sodom, it was a completely dead town. It was a dead town clear down to the time when the Romans lived there.

Wikipedia disagrees with you.

From the evience it sounds like the story of Lot in Sodom is not true. What is your opinion?

I'd say that the story of Lot in Sodom is not historically accurate, but that 'historical accuracy' is not necessarily the same thing as 'truth'.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Acording to archaeological evidence ... What is your opinion?

That you have a deficient understanding of archaeology and evidence.

 

[Arlanbb]

JAY ~ I don't know where you get your information but here in Salem OR where I live is Dr. McCluary Head of the archaeology department at Willamette UNv. he was with Dr. Lapp when they exclavated Sodom and Gomorrah back in 1966-8. He personally told me about their dig and what they found and it was written up in a long report. So it looks like you are misinformed again Jay. Have you ever been on a dig in Israel? What do you know really know about archaeology?

Altjira ~ For one Have you ever heard of Dr. J. Randll Price, Th.M. Old Testament and Semitic Languages Dallas Theological Seminary and Ph.D. Middle Eastern Studies, Unv. of Texas and has written three books on bible lands. In his book The Stones Cry Out on page 354 he has a chart showing chronology of Historical Figures Abraham was born in 2035. Wikipedia.org gives Abraham @ 1812-1637, Wordsight. org says he was born in 1996 I do believe my 1950 come in @ about the middle of all of these dates. Even if I take the date of 2035 BC, that places Lot in Sodom about 1935 BC which is still 385 years after the last person died in Sodom. Please tell me what figures you have and where they came from if you can?

 

[rocketman]

JAY ~ I don't know where you get your information but here in Salem OR where I live is Dr. McCluary Head of the archaeology department at Willamette UNv. he was with Dr. Lapp when they exclavated Sodom and Gomorrah back in 1966-8. He personally told me about their dig and what they found and it was written up in a long report. So it looks like you are misinformed again Jay. Have you ever been on a dig in Israel? What do you know really know about archaeology?

There is amongst archaeologists no universally accepted site for what may have been Sodom. There are several competing favourites, each with different reasons, and possible dates behind them. But no one can say for sure.

 

[rocketman]

JAY ~ I don't know where you get your information but here in Salem OR where I live is Dr. McCluary Head of the archaeology department at Willamette UNv.

Shouldn't he be on this page? Willamette University Center for Ancient Studies and Archaeology: People

I see a McGaughy and a McCreery, but no McCluary. McCreey seems most likely who you meant, but even according to a university blog:

"In the 1970s he spent three seasons excavating at Bâb edh-Dhrâ` — believed by some to be the biblical city of Sodom — where he felt his way through layers of sun-dried mud brick with a trowel. The History Channel recently filmed at the site of two ancient cities (Bâb edh-Dhrâ` and Numeira), thought by some to be Sodom and Gomorrah."

Emphasis mine. There is no cut and dried answer to this, yet.

 

[Smoke]

he felt his way through layers of sun-dried mud brick with a trowel.

At first glance, I read that as "towel." I was thinking Dr. McCreery must be remarkably patient.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

JAY ~ I don't know where you get your information but here in Salem OR where I live is Dr. McCluary Head of the archaeology department at Willamette UNv. he was with Dr. Lapp when they exclavated Sodom and Gomorrah back in 1966-8. He personally told me about their dig and what they found and it was written up in a long report.

That's very special ... :clap

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Have you ever heard of Dr. J. Randll Price, ... ?

Syro-Palestinian archaeology at its best ... :no:

 

[Arlanbb]

ROCKETMAN ~ YOU ARE RIGHT. For 15 or so years I have thought that it was a proven fact but it looks like I was wrong. There was a web site [www.abu.nb.ca/ecm/topics/arch5.htm] that I went to and few years back and they had layed it out very nicely BUT I found out yesterday that that site has been revised with new info in the last two or three years about another Tell at the north end of the Dead Sea that fits it better. They are not positive about it but I think it might really be Sodom. It seams like new information comes out all the time from new digs. Thanks for making me do some more study on this subject.

 

[Darkness]

My favorite Tale about Sodom and Gomorrah is that they were destroyed by nuclear weapons.

 

[Runlikethewind]

I'd say that the story of Lot in Sodom is not historically accurate, but that 'historical accuracy' is not necessarily the same thing as 'truth'.

I agree. Much of the stories in the Torah are mytho-poetic in nature and not necessarily historically accurate. The truth of these stories is not in the historical or scientific accuracy. The emphasis on truth as it relates to historical/scientific accuracy is a relatively new phenomena in human history. To the ancient peoples who read them the stories didn't have to be true in the sense we mean it today in order for them to be true in a different way. Take the story of the boy who cried wolf. It doesn't mater if such a boy ever existed, the truth is that if you continue to raise a false alarm eventually no one will believe you when you raise a real alarm. The importance of the story of Sodom is not whether Lot lived in Sodom or that Lot and Sodom even existed at all. The truth lies in the deeper spiritual meaning of God's relation to humanity in the context of the story.

 

[belever]

Gen 13 and 18 tells the story about Abraham and Lot, their seperation and Lot living in Sodom. Acording to most biblical historians Abraham was born about 1950 BC and it was around 1850 BC when Lot departed Sodom before it turned into flames.

There is one big problem. Acording to archaeological evidence the town of Sodom had people living in it from about 3500 BC down to 2300 BC when it burned down. During the time that Lot lived in Sodom in 1850 BC no body was living in Sodom, it was a completely dead town. It was a dead town clear down to the time when the Romans lived there.

How is it that Lot was to have lived in a town that had no people in it during this time of Lots life and people had not lived there for about 500 years??? From the evience it sounds like the story of Lot in Sodom is not true. What is your opinion?

__________________________________________________________
Sodom asity situaited along the SE boundary of cannan(gen 10:19;13:12).Sodom seems to have been the mast promonent of five cities,all of wich were apparently located at the low Plain of Siddim(gen14:2,3).many scholars beleve that the original sites of Sodom and ather sities of the district now lie submerged beneath the waters of the Dead sea,though some athers resently have clamed that the ruins of the cities may be identified with sites along wadis to the E and SE of the Dead Sea(gen 13:12).did Jesus believe this Bible story to be a myth?no cos hi tald his apostles:'remember the wife of lot '(luke 17:32)the question is,whom do we believe

 

[challupa]

I agree. Much of the stories in the Torah are mytho-poetic in nature and not necessarily historically accurate. The truth of these stories is not in the historical or scientific accuracy. The emphasis on truth as it relates to historical/scientific accuracy is a relatively new phenomena in human history. To the ancient peoples who read them the stories didn't have to be true in the sense we mean it today in order for them to be true in a different way. Take the story of the boy who cried wolf. It doesn't mater if such a boy ever existed, the truth is that if you continue to raise a false alarm eventually no one will believe you when you raise a real alarm. The importance of the story of Sodom is not whether Lot lived in Sodom or that Lot and Sodom even existed at all. The truth lies in the deeper spiritual meaning of God's relation to humanity in the context of the story.

I agree with you that this story is not historical, but I would have to ask what deeper spirtual meaning it would have either. After all Lot gave his 2 daughters to the crowd that wanted him to hand over the two "male" angels to "know" them. And, God still saved him!!! Then he turns Lot's wife to a pillar of salt all because she did something, in my opinion, was fairly minor in comparison to allowing daughters to be raped. I really don't see any redeeming qualities in this piece of fiction at all. What am I missing? What is the deeper spiritual meaning?

 

[Runlikethewind]

I agree with you that this story is not historical, but I would have to ask what deeper spirtual meaning it would have either. After all Lot gave his 2 daughters to the crowd that wanted him to hand over the two "male" angels to "know" them. And, God still saved him!!! Then he turns Lot's wife to a pillar of salt all because she did something, in my opinion, was fairly minor in comparison to allowing daughters to be raped. I really don't see any redeeming qualities in this piece of fiction at all. What am I missing? What is the deeper spiritual meaning?

That is a good question. I don't think that we can forget the context in which the story was written. I am no expert on ancient Near-Eastern culture but I think the concept of hospitality was very important to them as it is today. In the context of the culture in which this story was written I think that it may have been viewed as a far greater sin on the part of Lot to surrender his guests than to surrender his daughters. Now I am not saying that morality is relative, Lot may have been wrong in giving up his daughters instead of his guests. But in the cultural context he may have had the firm conviction that he was doing the right thing. Now there is a spiritual lesson that we can take from this story that following our conscious is important. If you truly believe in your heart of hearts that the action you are about to take is the right one I believe God will be pleased and back you up even if the act is inherently wrong.

So perhaps the deeper spiritual message is not in the actions of the story but the motivations. Lot was trying to do the right thing and follow and serve God, he was rewarded. His wife disobeyed and she was punished, the seeming insignificance of the act of disobedience is out weighed by the motivations in her heart not to trust God and not to listen to God. And we can't really get angry at God for doing this to her or for helping Lot after he gave up his daughters to be raped since we both agree that the story is not historical and so never happened. The story tells of how obedience to God is good, disobedience is bad, in a way that the people of the culture of the time could readily recognize and understand.

 

[Arlanbb]

BELEVER said__________________________________________________________
Sodom asity situaited along the SE boundary of cannan(gen 10:19;13:12).Sodom seems to have been the mast promonent of five cities,all of wich were apparently located at the low Plain of Siddim(gen14:2,3).many scholars beleve that the original sites of Sodom and ather sities of the district now lie submerged beneath the waters of the Dead sea,though some athers resently have clamed that the ruins of the cities may be identified with sites along wadis to the E and SE of the Dead Sea(gen 13:12).did Jesus believe this Bible story to be a myth?no cos hi tald his apostles:'remember the wife of lot '(luke 17:32)the question is,whom do we believe
First of all you say "apparently" the 5 cities were located at the low Plain of Siddim. But no one has found 5 cities there like they have found on the eastern side of the dead sea. Second scholars have surched underwater for Sodom and come up dry [parden the pun]
As for Jesus talking about the wife of Lot. Jesus was not there when "apparently" Lot's wife turned to salt so all he was doing was using a story from the old testament that for all we know was not true, but was a good story to prove Jesus point. Just because Jesus said it does, not prove it really happened, all he was doing is give a statement from the Hebrew bible.