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Did Jesus say he was God???

captainbryce

Active Member
If then, God relinquishing His authority to Jesus, that makes Jesus equal to God, does it not?
It certainly does not, for a number of reasons.

A) It is God who ultimately decides WHO judges mankind. And Jesus specifically says that he Judges "as God tells him". Therefore, God still has ultimate authority.

John 5:30
I can do nothing on my own. I judge as God tells me. Therefore, my judgment is just, because I carry out the will of the one who sent me, not my own will.

Forgive me for using a military analogy, but I liken relationship to a commander on the battlefield, who is granted authority to issue lawful orders to his troops. In the military, we delegate powers to competent, qualified officers to carry out war operations because the supreme/combatant commander can't be bothered to make EVERY single decision at every level. A General for example plans and executes the war, but he/she delegates authority to Colonels in the field, who then command troops in battle. But at the end of the day, the General is still the one in charge because he is the one who grants authority to his Colonels. I see the relationship between God and Jesus in a similar way. Jesus judges (as God tells him).

B) Jesus specifically said that he was NOT equal to God.

John 14:28
Remember what I told you: I am going away, but I will come back to you again. If you really loved me, you would be happy that I am going to the Father, who is greater than I am.

Matthew 24:36
"However, no one knows the day or hour when these things will happen, not even the angels in heaven or the Son himself. Only the Father knows.

John 20:17
“Don’t cling to me,” Jesus said, “for I haven’t yet ascended to the Father. But go find my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God

Was that not what they accused Him of?
Yes, they did accuse him of this (which they framed as blasphemy). They also accused him of many other things that were not true, in order to find an excuse to kill him.

Matthew 14:55-59
55 Inside, the leading priests and the entire high council were trying to find evidence against Jesus, so they could put him to death. But they couldn’t find any. 56 Many false witnesses spoke against him, but they contradicted each other. 57 Finally, some men stood up and gave this false testimony: 58 “We heard him say, ‘I will destroy this Temple made with human hands, and in three days I will build another, made without human hands.’” 59 But even then they didn’t get their stories straight!

You believe Jesus would boast while in the flesh? If He would of, then He would have defiled His complete submissiveness as in the flesh, which no man except God could do.
It's not a question as to whether or not he would "boast". The question should be whether or not he would LIE. And I obviously don't believe that he would lie! Therefore as a Christian, I have to accept that what he says about being lesser than God is the truth!

Mark 10:18
“Why do you call me good?” Jesus asked. “Only God is truly good.

If Jesus says that the father is greater than he is, then it MUST be true!

Why then a sinless man? Can you name one individual in the whole of humanity that was sinless, save God Himself?
Yes. The answer is "the man Jesus Christ".

James 1:13
When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone.

Matthew 4:1-2
1 Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted there by the devil. 2 For forty days and forty nights he fasted and became very hungry.

You ask WHY a sinless man? Because, who else but a sinless man is uniquely qualified to judge the sins of man? Who else besides someone who wasn't born into sin, but one that lived as a man and was tempted by evil himself could judge someone else's sins without being called a hypocrite? Could God have accomplished everything without Jesus? Sure. He is God and technically he can do anything. But the scriptures say that God is a righteous judge, who judges in fairness. If Jesus was actually God himself, then it would completely defeat the purpose of having him be our savior and judge! God could not be tempted, but Jesus could. This is what makes him the "fairer" choice to judge our sins (from our perspective), and God knew this. Isn't it more fair to have someone actually capable of experiencing temptation as a man and resist those temptations be the judge of mankind, who succubus to such temptations himself? If a god who cannot be tempted is judging mankind for succumbing to natural temptations of men, some might argue that this would not be a fair judgement. Since God always judges in righteousness, the solution is simple: delegate all authority to judge to that MAN you sent to save mankind. A man who was born free of sin, tempted to sin, resisted sin, and lived a life without sin: Jesus Christ. :)

You mean to tell me that Jesus died because He judged mankind? You mean by judgment, save some and condemn others?
What? :confused:

No. He judges mankind because he has been given that authority by God. The reason he died was because the Jewish leaders engaged in a conspiracy to have him killed. They saw him as a threat to their status and authority (which was true because he actively spoke out against them).

Matthew 23:1-7
Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, 2 “The teachers of religious law and the Pharisees are the official interpreters of the law of Moses. 3 So practice and obey whatever they tell you, but don’t follow their example. For they don’t practice what they teach. 4 They crush people with unbearable religious demands and never lift a finger to ease the burden.

5 “Everything they do is for show. On their arms they wear extra wide prayer boxes with Scripture verses inside, and they wear robes with extra long tassels. 6 And they love to sit at the head table at banquets and in the seats of honor in the synagogues. 7 They love to receive respectful greetings as they walk in the marketplaces, and to be called ‘Rabbi.’

Luke 20:1:8
One day as Jesus was teaching the people and preaching the Good News in the Temple, the leading priests, the teachers of religious law, and the elders came up to him. 2 They demanded, “By what authority are you doing all these things? Who gave you the right?”

3 “Let me ask you a question first,” he replied. 4 “Did John’s authority to baptize come from heaven, or was it merely human?” 5 They talked it over among themselves. “If we say it was from heaven, he will ask why we didn’t believe John. 6 But if we say it was merely human, the people will stone us because they are convinced John was a prophet.” 7 So they finally replied that they didn’t know. 8 And Jesus responded, “Then I won’t tell you by what authority I do these things.”

Matthew 26:3-4
3 At that same time the leading priests and elders were meeting at the residence of Caiaphas, the high priest, 4 plotting how to capture Jesus secretly and kill him. 5 “But not during the Passover celebration,” they agreed, “or the people may riot.”

From Jesus' perspective, his mission was to save mankind from sin, which necessitated his own death.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.''

John 3:16
For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.

He paid the price for us all. You and I pay nothing, for it is a free gift of God by Jesus.
I agree. Therefore, I don't understand your question. :shrug:

Well.....there you go.....so it was God as Jesus, right?

You first have to establish that FACT in order to understand what it means for Jesus to be completely submissive as a lesser/as we are, than God right?
Uh, NO. First of all, that's not even what I said. I said Jesus could not have done it without God, just as Moses could not have lead the Israelites to the promised land without God, and Noah could not have saved his family, without God, and Lot could not have saved his family, without God. It is God who allows miracles to be performed. It is God who granted certain individuals authority and power to "save" others. The only difference between Jesus and the others is that he is actually the Son of God himself, and is given authority to judge our sins. But the power and authority comes from God, not himself, because he is not God.

No one but God can save period!
Then how do you explain what Noah did? And Moses did? They "saved" their people. Are they also God?

If Jesus can not save, then God can not save for they are one in the same.
But you have to establish THAT as fact, and there is no scripture which makes this claim. It is an idea based solely on the trinity doctrine, which does not come from the bible. Why does Jesus HAVE to be God in order for him to be able to "save"? In what scripture is this fact about salvation made?
 

look3467

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by look3467
If then, God relinquishing His authority to Jesus, that makes Jesus equal to God, does it not?

It certainly does not, for a number of reasons.

A) It is God who ultimately decides WHO judges mankind. And Jesus specifically says that he Judges "as God tells him". Therefore, God still has ultimate authority.

John 5:30
I can do nothing on my own. I judge as God tells me. Therefore, my judgment is just, because I carry out the will of the one who sent me, not my own will.

Forgive me for using a military analogy, but I liken relationship to a commander on the battlefield, who is granted authority to issue lawful orders to his troops. In the military, we delegate powers to competent, qualified officers to carry out war operations because the supreme/combatant commander can't be bothered to make EVERY single decision at every level. A General for example plans and executes the war, but he/she delegates authority to Colonels in the field, who then command troops in battle. But at the end of the day, the General is still the one in charge because he is the one who grants authority to his Colonels. I see the relationship between God and Jesus in a similar way. Jesus judges (as God tells him).

B) Jesus specifically said that he was NOT equal to God.

John 14:28
Remember what I told you: I am going away, but I will come back to you again. If you really loved me, you would be happy that I am going to the Father, who is greater than I am.

Matthew 24:36
"However, no one knows the day or hour when these things will happen, not even the angels in heaven or the Son himself. Only the Father knows.

John 20:17
“Don’t cling to me,” Jesus said, “for I haven’t yet ascended to the Father. But go find my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’>>>captainbryce
You seem to forget that Jesus in the flesh could technically be greater that God who is not.
If God wanted to communicate with an ant colony, He would become AS one of them.....is what is been demonstrated in "God with us".

All those verses you quoted are absolutely correct answers to one in the flesh, who as God, in complete submission to the will of God could respond.

If Jesus at any time would have accepted any glory to Himself, then His complete submission of the flesh to God, would have been nullified and His mission compromised.

So, it was pertinent to His mission that He would be complexly in the will of the Father.
If you can not understand that, then Jesus to you would have no power to save that which was lost, save He be as God doing the saving.

It is completely unacceptable any other way! Jesus said it Himself as a hanging noose to the Jewish nation, quote ....."no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.".

Cut it any way you like, no man can come to the Father except BY JESUS.
Show mw another man in the whole of human history by which that statement was made?



Blessings, AJ
 

look3467

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by look3467
Why then a sinless man? Can you name one individual in the whole of humanity that was sinless, save God Himself?

Yes. The answer is "the man Jesus Christ". >>>captainbryce

I said God Himself.......and you said Jesus.....well......no difference.
Your refusal to accept Jesus as Devine is simply not having understanding.

Though you accept Gods salvation, yet not fully understand the concept by which God accomplished it.

Blessings, AJ
 

look3467

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
No. He judges mankind because he has been given that authority by God. The reason he died was because the Jewish leaders engaged in a conspiracy to have him killed. They saw him as a threat to their status and authority (which was true because he actively spoke out against them).>>>captainbryce
That you understand well! But on the other hand, you don't understand why it had to be that way.
Do you recall reading the following:
Joh_12:40
He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

You seem to me that you are converted in heart, but blind with your eyes for not seeing Jesus as your God, as God, as savior of your soul.
You've got everything else right except for that.

Blessings, AJ
 

look3467

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by look3467
Well.....there you go.....so it was God as Jesus, right?

You first have to establish that FACT in order to understand what it means for Jesus to be completely submissive as a lesser/as we are, than God right?


Uh, NO. First of all, that's not even what I said. I said Jesus could not have done it without God, just as Moses could not have lead the Israelites to the promised land without God, and Noah could not have saved his family, without God, and Lot could not have saved his family, without God. It is God who allows miracles to be performed. It is God who granted certain individuals authority and power to "save" others. The only difference between Jesus and the others is that he is actually the Son of God himself, and is given authority to judge our sins. But the power and authority comes from God, not himself, because he is not God. >>>captainbryce
Even that God was with these men, did Moses, Noah save the peoples souls?
None of them where as God but simply, representatives, with power from God to perform in behalf of God but not as God. Limited to the concerns of the flesh but not to the concerns of the spirit.
Meaning, Moses introduced the Ten Commandments, which only condemned the spirit for lack of perfection.
Noah, was instrumental of saving of the flesh, not the spirit.
Only Jesus, as God could save the spirit, for we still die in the flesh.

Blessings, AJ
 

captainbryce

Active Member
What is your understanding on this verse?
My understanding is that Jesus is quite clearly saying that HE has his own God ("our" implies that God is over Jesus as well as everyone else), and that he is the ONLY God (ie: one person, not three).

Jesus constantly refers to "our" God being "his" God. From that context, it is illogical for anyone to assume that he has made himself "God" or the equal to God. Trinitarian doctrine is inconsistent with Jesus' own words regarding his place compared to God. Trinitarians essentially acknowledge that the Jews false charges against Jesus, "making himself equal to God" are in fact true even though Jesus denies this and scriptures tells us they were intentionally lying to find an excuse to have him executed. If Jesus was actually making himself equal to God, then that would have justified their false claims.
 

MountainPine

Deuteronomy 30:16
Yahushua claimed he was NOT God:

And as He was setting out on the way, one came running, and knelt before Him, and asked Him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit everlasting life?” And יהושע said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except One – Elohim. Mark 10:17-18

“And a certain ruler asked Him, saying, 'Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit everlasting life?' So יהושע said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except One – Elohim” Luke 18:18-19

“But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father also does seek such to worship Him. “Elohim is Spirit, and those who worship Him need to worship in spirit and truth.” John 4:23-24

“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me possesses everlasting life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. John 5:24

“Of Myself I am unable to do any matter. As I hear, I judge, and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own desire, but the desire of the Father who sent Me. “If I bear witness of Myself, My witness is not true. John 5:30-31

“You heard that I said to you, ‘I am going away and I am coming to you.’ If you did love Me, you would have rejoiced that I said, ‘I am going to the Father,’ for My Father is greater than I. John 14:28

יהושע said to her, “Do not hold on to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father. But go to My brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My Elohim and your Elohim.’ ” John 20:17

And John testifies in his epistle as followed:

No one has seen Elohim at any time. If we love one another, Elohim does stay in us, and His love has been perfected in us. 1 John 4:12

According to scripture (Malachi 3:6, John 4:24) God is unable to change which means his being cannot manifest into material form. In John 1, it talks about the Word in which is described as being God and becoming flesh. In Greek, the Word is known as the Logos (Λογος ), which means 'applied knowledge'. Yahushua was the representative of the Word; the speaker of the knowledge of God. God chose Yahushua to bestow his knowledge to, thus making him the Messiah, which is the office in which he served. Moses also served this office as well, hence the name Moses is English for Mosheh (which means Messiah in Paleo-Hebrew). When scripture states that the Word became flesh, it means that the spirit of truth possessed Yahushua. He had the mind of God, but was not God's actual being. The Greeks revered the Logos so much (the SPIRIT of truth) that they gave it a personification. Verse 3 is talking about God, not Yahushua. John 1 is only talking about the Logos and doesn't mention anything about Yahushua until verse 17. In verse 15 where John the Baptist said "He who comes after me has become before me, because He was before me", he was referring to the spirit of the Messiah (the Word) in which was the office that Yahushua served, but was not referring Yahushua's natural person. The 'trinity' (if you want to call it that) can be understood as the spirits of creation (Father), knowledge (the Word), and wisdom (Holy Spirit), and this can be confirmed by 1 John 5:7.

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 1 John 5:7 KJV

Concerning John 8:58:

“יהושע said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."

"I am" here is comprised of G1473 and G1510. The exact same phrase is also used in verses 24 and 28, but virtually all modern English translations insert "he" after them, as in "I am he." Clearly the phrase is being used in precisely the same way in verse 58, yet the "he" is purposefully omitted in order to create a mysterious-sounding hook upon which to hang trinitarian doctrine. In all 3 cases, "he" refers to Christ's identity as the Messiah, not the Father. And when he said “before Abraham” he was meant that His office, the spirit of the Messiah, or the Word existed before Abraham. He was tracing his tradition back to the Order of Melchizedek, a community whom knew the Word. And as for “I and my Father are one” (John 10:30), this means the Christ's will was one with the Father's will. He was certainly not claiming to be God in the flesh.

(Passages are quoted from The Scriptures, except the 1 John 5:7 passage)
 

look3467

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
One can quote scripture for or against Jesus equating Himself with God all day long, twice on Sunday and every day after and still be divided in views.

Its something like; one being in jail, imprisoned (in ones mind), looking at the bars only and not seeing between the bars the space between them to reveal what is on the other side.

Many of you, by seeing the bars only, see only those bars/scriptures which show Jesus as being totally submissive to God and therefore remain imprisoned. (In ones mind)

But those who see the bars and the spaces between the bars (scriptures) can see the other side, the spiritual message/spaces to the revelation of Jesus being God.

What I am saying is that of ones limiting our ability to see the spiritual significance of the mission of Christ in those same verses.

In the book of Psalms we read:
Isa_45:2
I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron:

Prophecy is that of Jesus where God in Jesus will open all prisons doors, open the door no man can shut, bridging the gap between heaven and hell: delivering all those souls in prison by both cutting asunder the bars of Iron (hell) and breaking the gates of heaven (brass).

Therefore, by seeing the spiritual work of God in Jesus, will gain understanding of Jesus' true nature.

Blessings, AJ
 

Shermana

Heretic
Many of you, by seeing the bars only, see only those bars/scriptures which show Jesus as being totally submissive to God and therefore remain imprisoned. (In ones mind)

But those who see the bars and the spaces between the bars (scriptures) can see the other side, the spiritual message/spaces to the revelation of Jesus being God.

You have it the other way around. Those who view it as Jesus saying he was God are imprisoned to gentile church doctrine and are refusing to see the objective reality. They are limiting their view to what historic doctrine of man has them blinded to see, and are refusing to see Jesus's true nature as the Highest of the Archons, the Chief of His Creation, the Prime Ultimate of His created beings, and are deluding themselves with a heresy that has no precedence whatsoever in any form of Judaic thought. They are willing pawns in the artificial structure of false religion. Certainly Christ and God have no will for man to view Jesus as God Himself, and I dare to speak for them with that assertion on my soul and life.
 
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BornAgain

Active Member
My understanding is that Jesus is quite clearly saying that HE has his own God ("our" implies that God is over Jesus as well as everyone else), and that he is the ONLY God (ie: one person, not three).

Jesus constantly refers to "our" God being "his" God. From that context, it is illogical for anyone to assume that he has made himself "God" or the equal to God. Trinitarian doctrine is inconsistent with Jesus' own words regarding his place compared to God. Trinitarians essentially acknowledge that the Jews false charges against Jesus, "making himself equal to God" are in fact true even though Jesus denies this and scriptures tells us they were intentionally lying to find an excuse to have him executed. If Jesus was actually making himself equal to God, then that would have justified their false claims.
Can you tell the difference between the two?

Dt6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD

And,

'I believe with a perfect faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, is an absolute one'
 

BornAgain

Active Member
Yahushua claimed he was NOT God:

And as He was setting out on the way, one came running, and knelt before Him, and asked Him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit everlasting life?” And יהושע said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except One – Elohim. Mark 10:17-18

“And a certain ruler asked Him, saying, 'Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit everlasting life?' So יהושע said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except One – Elohim” Luke 18:18-19

“But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father also does seek such to worship Him. “Elohim is Spirit, and those who worship Him need to worship in spirit and truth.” John 4:23-24
What is ELOHIM?
 

look3467

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
You have it the other way around. Those who view it as Jesus saying he was God are imprisoned to gentile church doctrine and are refusing to see the objective reality. They are limiting their view to what historic doctrine of man has them blinded to see, and are refusing to see Jesus's true nature as the Highest of the Archons, the Chief of His Creation, the Prime Ultimate of His created beings, and are deluding themselves with a heresy that has no precedence whatsoever in any form of Judaic thought. They are willing pawns in the artificial structure of false religion. Certainly Christ and God have no will for man to view Jesus as God Himself, and I dare to speak for them with that assertion on my soul and life.

OK, again I will try setting up Gods plan for saving His own creation as the general theme consistent with the whole of the bible.

There are four basic steps that followed/follow the creation of the "living soul" as described in the book of Genesis.
1. Creation, shows the power and the might of Almighty God as creator in the creation of "a living soul".

2. Fall, is a term used to denote the difference between the God in heaven and the god on earth. As you've read, quote"
Gen_3:22
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us"...
Mankind has become as gods. I mean lower case g, for a lesser god.

3. Judgment, is the unavoidable direct result of the creation which God knew to reconcile at a later date. In the former case, as in Adam and Eve, representative of the first living souls, having the sentence of separation/death as their legacy, rested upon all their offspring to this day and unto all future generations of the flesh.

4. Death, the final end of the creation, unless........God takes steps to redeem it.

As humans,those are the four basic steps that befall every living soul including Jesus.

As God the Creator, His work of redemption of His creation was prophesied from the beginning and all throughout the bible as the central theme in the name and body of Jesus.
No other figure in the whole of the human race is there a name by which mankind can be saved. And only God can save, meaning that Jesus as God, not a lower case g, but an upper case G, since Jesus was divinely fathered as God in human form.

He, Jesus is the tree of life with held in the book of Genesis, later introduced into the human scene, but not first promised in prophecy to its fulfillment on the cross.

You see, as a human in the flesh Jesus/God had to experience the same four steps we all experience as a matter of requirement, if He was to redeem the whole of humanity in one body.
He, Jesus as God is the only possible way for the redemption of humanity could be accomplished because humanity could not in its imperfect state redeem itself.

Jesus, in His perfect state, which means "only God is good" or as God, could be the sacrificial lamb in perfect state and without blemish in our place.

The bible is all that is needed to ascertain that view given by the third person of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit, (Comforter) as stirrer of our human spirit to renewal.

God the Father creator, God the Son recreate-er and God the Holy Spirit sustainer of the new creation.

Jesus after the fourth step descends to the prison where all the previous souls where held captive, and frees them after the second day, as God the Father redeems Jesus by His resurrection.

Therefore, we are all buried and resurrected with Jesus to a life everlasting. To a Kingdom that will not end.

Now, many in the world can/will claim this or that about Jesus' nature, but the bible as a whole, written by different people, compiled into one book, details in spirit the works of God, regardless of the errors and deficiencies of mankind.

It is the work of God to call us out by His Holy Spirit in the renewing of our death state into a living state.

Could not get any simpler than that!

Blessings, AJ
 

look3467

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
If Jesus was actually making himself equal to God, then that would have justified their false claims.>>>captainbryce

That's precisely the point, that you and those who accused Jesus of being, that was key fulfillment of prophecy.

Isa_53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

"...esteemed him not"...as many do, even today, as just a mere man and not the Son of God as God.

The accusation of being making Himself if thou He were equal to God was in Gods plan of redemption.

That you have to see, for there is no other way but that.

Blessings, AJ
 

look3467

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
MountainPine,

God could not redeem His own creation without becoming as a man. A God father human, in Jesus and offering Jesus' body in place of all of us to eternal doom.

Jesus had to consume all sin in order to do so, and only God Him self could do that.

Jesus could not, would not, claim equality with God. That was up to humanity to accuse Him off. By so doing, He and His body would/could/was offered up as the once and for all sacrifice for the redemption of the whole human race.

That is very evident in the bible.

Blessings, AJ
 

BornAgain

Active Member
You have it the other way around. Those who view it as Jesus saying he was God are imprisoned to gentile church doctrine and are refusing to see the objective reality.

They are limiting their view to what historic doctrine of man has them blinded to see, and are refusing to see Jesus's true nature as the Highest of the Archons, the Chief of His Creation, the Prime Ultimate of His created beings, and are deluding themselves with a heresy that has no precedence whatsoever in any form of Judaic thought.
“THE HIGHEST OF THE ARCHONS, THE CHIEF OF HIS CREATION, THE PRIME ULTIMATE OF HIS CREATED BEINGS”

You have not proven yet that Christ was just a creation of God. All you have is your DELUSIONAL ANGEL’S THEORY WHICH I DISPROVED OVER AND OVER AGAIN, UNLESS YOU HAVE A NEW THEORY AGAIN, THEN WE COULD DEBATE THIS NEWEST THEORY AGAIN. Prove it first with scriptures that Christ was just a creation of God before you accuse Christians of adhering to this “delusional heresy” the “Gentile church doctrine”.

WE HAVE WRITTEN PROOFS OF THIS “GENTILE CHURCH DOCTRINES” IN THE NEW TESTAMENT.

Paul argued this “GENTILE CHURCH DOCTRINES” with the Jews, -AND STILL ARGUING TODAY- from the scriptures,

Act17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
Act17:3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.

Is this what you meant by, “has no precedence whatsoever in any form of Judaic thought.”

The “SCRIPTURES” here is the Septuagint/LXX, wasn’t it.

What Judaic thought are you talking about?

If you are thinking about the Gentiles to follow the Law of Moses, which
Gal6:13 For neither they/JEWS themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.

Which had been settled in Acts chapter 15

Act15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we/JEWS trouble not them/GENTILES, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

HOW MANY GOSPEL DO YOU SEE HERE?

Gal2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision/GENTILES? was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision/JEWS? was unto Peter;
 

BornAgain

Active Member
They are limiting their view to what historic doctrine of man has them blinded to see.
They are willing pawns in the artificial structure of false religion.
“BLINDED TO SEE” “ARTIFICIAL STRUCTURE OF FALSE RELIGION”

Can you tell/SEE the difference between the two?

Dt6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD

And,

'I believe with a perfect faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, is an absolute one'

Jer23:36 And the burden of the LORD shall ye mention no more: for every man’s word shall be his burden; for ye have perverted the words of the living God, of the LORD of hosts our God.

YOU SHOULD READ THE N.T. BEFORE INSERTING YOUR DELUSIONAL THEORY OR YOUR THEOLOGY ABOUT YOUR RELIGION WHICH YOU YOURSELF IS HAVING A HARD TIME TO FOLLOW.
 

captainbryce

Active Member
You seem to forget that Jesus in the flesh could technically be greater that God who is not.
I'm not sure what this means. :confused:

If God wanted to communicate with an ant colony, He would become AS one of them.....is what is been demonstrated in "God with us".
How do you figure? God communicated with Adam and Eve without becoming AS one of them. God communicated with Noah, Abraham and Moses without becoming AS one of them either. Apparently God can communicate with us effectively without becoming one of us. So I don't understand what you're basing this logic off of.

All those verses you quoted are absolutely correct answers to one in the flesh, who as God, in complete submission to the will of God could respond.
That is not even a logical concept. How can one be God and in submission to God at the same time if there is only one God. It defies logic! If God is one, and there are no other God's before him, and his power is infinite, then he could not "submit" to anything else (otherwise he would no longer be God). The trinity is a paradox that defies logic! And when things don't make sense, they can't be true. It's that simple.

If Jesus at any time would have accepted any glory to Himself, then His complete submission of the flesh to God, would have been nullified and His mission compromised.
You're missing my point! Jesus COULDN'T accept any glory to himself because he did NOTHING of his own will. He did the will of his father! That means that there was no glory for him to accept other than what God allows, otherwise it's false glory. Its similar to why Moses was punished for striking the rock that God told him to speak to.

So, it was pertinent to His mission that He would be complexly in the will of the Father.
Whether he was in the will of the father isn't the issue. I fully agree that he was, but that hardly speaks to the issue of whether or not he was God in the flesh.

If you can not understand that, then Jesus to you would have no power to save that which was lost, save He be as God doing the saving.
I don't agree with you, and I don't see any scriptural evidence that this is correct. This is a trinitarian philosophy that I don't see any scriptural support of.

It is completely unacceptable any other way!
To YOU it's unacceptable. But I have no problem accepting it because to me your interpretation makes no sense, and mine does (in accordance with scripture).

Jesus said it Himself as a hanging noose to the Jewish nation, quote ....."no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.".
Irrelevant! This is another straw man argument. We have both already acknowledge that no man comes to the Father except through him. But HOW DOES THAT PROVE JESUS IS GOD? One thing has nothing to do with the other. And to paraphrase what Jesus is saying here, I'll simply point to:

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is only one God and one Mediator who can reconcile God and humanity--the man Christ Jesus.

Cut it any way you like, no man can come to the Father except BY JESUS.
Show mw another man in the whole of human history by which that statement was made?
I don't have to, because that statement doesn't address or answer the question being asked: "Did Jesus ever say he was God?"

You SHOW ME a scripture in which Jesus says that he is God, and then you will have made your point.
 

captainbryce

Active Member
I said God Himself.......and you said Jesus.....well......no difference.
Your refusal to accept Jesus as Devine is simply not having understanding.
And you're attempt to mischaracterize my position is YOU not having an understanding of it. Whoever said that I don't accept the divinity of Christ?

Though you accept Gods salvation, yet not fully understand the concept by which God accomplished it.
So you claim. But while you suggest that you understand it, you've failed to make a compelling argument for why you understand the way that that you do. You certainly haven't made a biblical compelling argument, or a logically compelling argument. You just keep restating your belief over and over again, as if it's true, without any actual support. So if you can't support, justify or make a compelling case for your belief, and the only thing you can do is claim that I "don't understand", then why anyone give your argument credence? The evidence would seem to suggest that it is YOU who doesn't understand, and that would explain why you can't rationally justify your position while I can. You can disagree with my interpretation (that's fine), but you can't tell me it's wrong unless you present a compelling case (ie: biblical evidence) that supports your interpretation over mine. And so far, you haven't done that! As always, the Trinitarian position is unable to address the scriptures which categorically rule trinity out, nor can they produce a passage that answers the question in their favor. It's no different now than when we started the debate. I think I understand just fine, thanks! :yes:
 

captainbryce

Active Member
Do you recall reading the following:
Joh_12:40
He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

You seem to me that you are converted in heart, but blind with your eyes for not seeing Jesus as your God, as God, as savior of your soul.
You've got everything else right except for that.
Your arrogant presumptions never cease to amaze me. I DO in fact accept Jesus as the savior of my soul. And since I have given no indication otherwise, it seems that you are just as likely to misinterpret what I say as you are when it comes to misinterpreting the words of Christ. You're problem is, you don't actually LISTEN. You hear and believe what you want to believe rather than what is actually said!

This isn't a matter of me being "blinded" by the facts, so much as what the facts actually indicate. If Jesus was God, then you'd should be able to explain the paradox of him being WITH God (at his right hand) at the same time. If Jesus was God, then you should be able to explain why he insisted that God was ONE, not three. If Jesus was God, then you'd be able to explain why he has his own God (even though that is a paradox). If Jesus was God, you should be able to explain why there are things he CAN'T do. If Jesus was God, then you should be able to explain the biblical contradiction of God NEVER dying despite Jesus dying on the cross! And IF Jesus was God, you should be able to produce the passage in the bible that directly says so, while addressing the passages in the bible that directly refute it. These are biblical facts that you can't seem to address! So since you have failed to do ANY of these things, you seem to me like someone who has been blinded by the traditions of man, at the expense of what God and Jesus actually teach us. You didn't pick up a bible, read it, then see "trinity" in there (nobody did). Because the plain reading of the text rules that out! There is no mention of a trinity, there is no description of a trinity, and it has no place in the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Trinity was a concept developed by Catholics 300 years after the death of Christ and adopted by most Protestants. You learned about the trinity doctrine, were taught trinity FIRST, and then had scripture interpreted for you through a trintiarian prism. Because that's how ALL trinitarians come to that doctrine.
 
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