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Did Jesus say he was God???

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Muffled, May 17, 2007.

  1. outhouse

    outhouse Atheistically

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    Funny

    Metis is one of the more level headed people in the whole forum.


    And I have no problem being corrected by him at all.


    His work is backed by credible scholarships, and his opinion follows the middle of the road.


    Sorry don't think the problem lies with this person at all :slap:
     
  2. JM2C

    JM2C CHRISTIAN

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    JW predicted the end of the world so many times and failed, are they God? NO!

    Are they prophets of God? NO!

    Read and Understand:

    Dt 18:20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death.”

    Dt 18:21 You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD?”

    Dt 18:22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.
     
  3. JM2C

    JM2C CHRISTIAN

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    “These things said Isaiah, because he saw his glory; and he spake of him” - Jn 12:41

    Jn 12:41 AMP Isaiah said this because he saw His glory and spoke of Him. [Isa. 6:9, 10]
     
    Jn 12:41 NIV Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus’ glory and spoke about him.

    John now claims that Isaiah saw The Lord Jesus Christ and spoke of him. IOW, he identified The Lord Jesus Christ with the Lord of the OT in Isaiah chapter 6.

    In the year that king Uzziah died I saw the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up; and his train filled the temple. - Isa 6:1
    Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, Jehovah of hosts. - Isa 6:5
     
  4. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Thanks, and how am I to deliver your check for this? :shrug:
     
  5. Dirty Penguin

    Dirty Penguin Master Of Ceremony

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    And we've gone over this as well. Nothing...and I mean absolutely nothing in the book of Isaiah is about the biblical Yeshua. The context of Isaiah has nothing to do with Yeshua....:no:
     
  6. outhouse

    outhouse Atheistically

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    Rational and reasonable debate is all I ever ask for :p

    And you have education and knowledge to pass on to those with open minds.



    I guess it ticks me off when fanatics go on the attack
     
  7. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Thanks again for this.
     
  8. Shuttlecraft

    Shuttlecraft .Navigator

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    Well who was Isaiah talking about if not Jesus when he prophesied-

    "He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth" (Isaiah 53:7).

    "I offered my back to those who beat me, my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard, I did not hide my face from mocking and spitting" (Isaiah 50:6)

    ".. he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed" (Isaiah 53:5)

    "..he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors" (Isaiah 53:12)
     
  9. Dirty Penguin

    Dirty Penguin Master Of Ceremony

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    You can't pick and choose verses here and there and apply them to the biblical Yeshua. In order to understand it needs to be read in context. The situation of Isaiah happens several hundred years before the biblical Yeshua and has to do with kingdoms at war...and even then there's more to the story.
     
  10. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Even "Jerome's Bible Commentary" (Catholic) states that Isaiah is referring to events dealing with the Babylonian exile and does not directly have anything to do with Jesus. But what is "kosher" is that scripture often uses the technique of applying one narrative to another in symbolic fashion for comparison's sake.
     
  11. JM2C

    JM2C CHRISTIAN

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    You mean John was talking about a different Isaiah?
     
  12. 'mud

    'mud ~~ Life is Stuff ~~
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    Metis and the Penguin have it right !
    I don't know even nearly enough about the bible, but I can differenciate between old testament and new testament writings.
    One cannot compare Matthew's musings to Isaiah's writings of leading wars between kings, and consider the decades between.
    Jesus wasn't born and prophesy is as reliable as cow terds. Matthew was totally wrong about his dreams, as was Joseph's.
    Different words and different meanings, read the right books, and adjust your distorted interpretations !
    ~
    'mud
     
  13. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    Nah you're way off. You don't really think Judaism is secular do you? It isn't, it's a religion with all the belief of Xianity, may be more.
     
  14. icebuddy

    icebuddy Does the devil lift Jesus up?

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    When i read the scripture, i see many Jewish leader expressing exactly what you seem to deny. many times the Jewish Leaders saw Jesus as claiming equality to God in their minds. Still Jesus had followers...

    What exactly do you think is Symbolism about Jesus that might be Controversial ?
     
    #8594 icebuddy, Oct 3, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2014
  15. icebuddy

    icebuddy Does the devil lift Jesus up?

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    Jesus was making a point... Israel had lots of activity, but no fruit. They had religion, but no relationship with God.

    To say Jesus was "Not Good" is very dangerous here. How does one answer this question? Was Jesus Good? "Yes, of course he was and is!" Dont forget to read Heb 1:3, John 14:7, John 20:28, 2cor 4:4... After reading those verses, can one truly say Jesus who expresses God fully and exactly is "not good'? These sound like things I would hear from Satans Mouth(Jesus is not Good that is, so that is) why I say this is dangerous.
     
  16. Shuttlecraft

    Shuttlecraft .Navigator

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    Apart from Isaiah, other prophets too foretold the arrival of Jesus, check out these below, I don't usually do long posts but people might want to cut and paste this to their documentss folder for reference-

    The Messiah would be preceded by a messenger-
    Old Testament (Isaiah 40:3) says:
    "A voice of one calling: "In the desert prepare the way for the Lord; make straight in the wilderness a highway for our God."

    New Testament (Matthew 3:1-2) says:
    "In those days John the Baptist came, preaching in the Desert of Judea, and saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near."
    ---------------------------
    The Messiah would be born in Bethlehem-
    Old Testament (Micah 5:2) says:
    "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times."

    New Testament (Matthew 2:1) says:
    "After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod..."
    ------------------------------
    The Messiah would come from the tribe of Judah-
    Old Testament (Genesis 49:10) says:
    "This passage talks about a ruler coming from the Tribe of Judah, one whose rule will be all-powerful:
    "The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, until he comes to whom it belongs and the obedience of the nations is his."

    New Testament (Luke 3:23-34 and Matthew 1:1-16) contains a list of Jesus' ancestors, going back to Judah, who was one of the 12 sons of Jacob. (Jacob's 12 sons were the fathers of the 12 Tribes of Israel).
    -------------------------------------------

    The Messiah would enter Jerusalem on a donkey-
    Old Testament (Zechariah 9:9) says:
    "Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion! Shout, Daughter of Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey"

    New Testament (Luke 19:35-37) says:
    "They brought it to Jesus, threw their cloaks on the colt and put Jesus on it. As he went along, people spread their cloaks on the road. When he came near the place where the road goes down the Mount of Olives, the whole crowd of disciples began joyfully to praise God in loud voices for all the miracles they had seen"
    -----------------------------------
    The Messiah would be betrayed by a friend-
    Old Testament (Psalms 41:9) says:
    "Even my close friend, whom I trusted, he who shared my bread, has lifted up his heel against me"

    New Testament (Matthew 26:47-50) says:
    "While he was still speaking, Judas, one of the Twelve, arrived. With him was a large crowd armed with swords and clubs, sent from the chief priests and the elders of the people. Now the betrayer had arranged a signal with them: "The one I kiss is the man; arrest him." Going at once to Jesus, Judas said, "Greetings, Rabbi!" and kissed him. Jesus replied, "Friend, do what you came for." Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him"
    --------------------------------------
    The Messiah would be sold for 30 pieces of silver-
    Old Testament (Zechariah 11:12) says:
    "I told them, "If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it." So they paid me thirty pieces of silver"

    New Testament (Matthew 26:14-15) says:
    "Then one of the Twelve--the one called Judas Iscariot--went to the chief priests and asked, "What are you willing to give me if I hand him over to you?" So they counted out for him thirty silver coins"
    ---------------------------------------
    The Messiah would be spit upon and beaten-
    Old Testament (Isaiah 50:6) says:
    "I offered my back to those who beat me, my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard; I did not hide my face from mocking and spitting"

    New Testament (Matthew 26:67-68) says:
    "Then they spit in his face and struck him with their fists. Others slapped him and said, "Prophesy to us, Christ. Who hit you?"
    -------------------------------------------
    The Messiah would be wounded by His enemies-
    Old Testament (Isaiah 53:5) says:
    "But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed"

    New Testament (Matthew 27:26) says:
    "Then he released Barabbas to them. But he had Jesus flogged, and handed him over to be crucified"
    ----------------------------------------------
    The Messiah would be silent before His accusers-
    Old Testament (Isaiah 53:7) says:
    "He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth"
    New Testament (Matthew 27:12-14) says:
    "When he was accused by the chief priests and the elders, he gave no answer. Then Pilate asked him, "Don't you hear the testimony they are bringing against you?" But Jesus made no reply, not even to a single charge--to the great amazement of the governor"
    ------------------------------------------------
    The betrayal money thrown in the temple and given for a potters field-
    Old Testament (Zechariah 11:13) says:
    "And the Lord said to me, "Throw it to the potter"--the handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the Lord to the potter"

    New Testament (Matthew 27:5-7) says:
    "So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself. The chief priests picked up the coins and said, "It is against the law to put this into the treasury, since it is blood money." So they decided to use the money to buy the potter's field as a burial place for foreigners"
    ---------------------------------------------------------
    The Messiah would have his hands and feet pierced-
    Old Testament (Psalm 22:16) says:
    "Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet"

    New Testament (Luke 23:33) says:
    "When they came to the place called the Skull, there they crucified him, along with the criminals--one on his right, the other on his left"
    --------------------------------------------------------
    The Messiah would be crucified with thieves-
    Old Testament (Isaiah 53:12) says:
    "Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors"

    New Testament (Matthew 27:38) says:
    "Two robbers were crucified with him, one on his right and one on his left"
     
  17. icebuddy

    icebuddy Does the devil lift Jesus up?

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    It is the Christian belief that Jesus "Emptied Himself" of something that enabled him to become man. To ignore this is to come to conclusions that will throw off ones understanding of scripture. Lets look even deeper for example: Jesus was a baby and needed to breath air, eat food, learn to walk, and many more. Clearly God nor even the Angels need any of this. Using this same logic, Jesus cant be an angel or anything before being born on earth... Something was different about Jesus as a man that made him just like you and me. Dont you agree that Jesus emptied himself of something to become a man?
     
    #8597 icebuddy, Oct 3, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2014
  18. 'mud

    'mud ~~ Life is Stuff ~~
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    Not even close !!!
    ~
    'mud
     
    • Like Like x 1
  19. icebuddy

    icebuddy Does the devil lift Jesus up?

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    I would like to point out that JW.ORG is the first ones that pop up. Meaning its a self Declaration of their own bible translation...


    Wikipedia has this about the NWT

    The New World Bible translation committee had no known translators with recognized degrees in Greek or Hebrew exegesis or translation... None of these men had any university education except Franz, who left school after two years, never completing even an undergraduate degree." Franz had stated that he was familiar with not only Hebrew, but with Greek, Latin, Spanish, Portuguese, German, and French for the purpose of biblical translation.



     
  20. Nada

    Nada #

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    Thats goes to show you they are being led by a force.

    Acts 4:13 When they saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and they took note that these men had been with Jesus.

    If you keep reading it has many scholars who acknowledge this work as being very accurate.
    Here is an example.

    Professor Benjamin Kedar, a Professor of History and Director of the Institute for Advanced Studies at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, said in 1989: "In my linguistic research in connection with the Hebrew Bible and translations, I often refer to the English edition of what is known as the New World Translation. In so doing, I find my feeling repeatedly confirmed that this work [the NWT Old Testament] reflects an honest endeavor to achieve an understanding of the text that is as accurate as possible."[64]
     
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