1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Did Jesus say he was God???

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Muffled, May 17, 2007.

  1. BornAgain

    BornAgain Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2013
    Messages:
    332
    Ratings:
    +5
    PAGE 753-B 8-6-13
    You are right, that is exactly where I’m going with this.

    Jn 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
     
  2. BornAgain

    BornAgain Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2013
    Messages:
    332
    Ratings:
    +5
    PAGE 754-A 8-6-13
    You are correct, God can not and will never, never die.

    Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    Jn 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

    Jn 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    Jn 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

    Jn 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

    Ro 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
    Ro 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

    Ro 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

    THIS IS THE GOSPEL OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST.
     
    #7542 BornAgain, Aug 6, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2013
  3. captainbryce

    captainbryce Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2013
    Messages:
    901
    Ratings:
    +23
    The way you write is confusing and jumbled. I'm not sure what it is you are actually saying here, (whether or not you were attempting to paraphrase me, paraphrase the bible, put words in my mouth or what) because of your writing style. I'm not sure whether or not I should ask you to elaborate, or simplify. Is this a QUESTION or a STATEMENT? :confused:

    The Holy Books (plural) have to be read consistently, the passages interpreted in context within their own writing, and reconciled to the information contained in the other books. Only when one does that are they truly getting to "the truth". That is what I believe my interpretation does and yours does not.

    Why are you asking me about Hyrkanos? I don't know who that is, and their opinion is no more valid than anyone else's.

    There doesn't have to be. You are confusing the issue here and attacking a straw man. Nobody has claimed that "things" existed BEFORE the creation. The argument is that Jesus existed before the creation (that the creation was made possible through him), and that Jesus was part of a creation that manifested itself BEFORE the creation of the universe. Jesus was God's first creation. The creation of the universe came after!

    Yes, I did. Because that's exactly what trinitarian doctrine requires in order to exist. My interpretation requires no such contradictions. You are trying to create contradictions that simply aren't there. Everything I am saying is consistent with scripture! Trinity is not, and the fact that you still haven't addressed all of the passages that refute it prove that.
     
  4. captainbryce

    captainbryce Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2013
    Messages:
    901
    Ratings:
    +23
    Unfortunately, that doesn't prove that Jesus is God. Only that he existed WITH God "in the beginning" (either as a concept or as a spirit entity, we don't know).
     
  5. captainbryce

    captainbryce Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2013
    Messages:
    901
    Ratings:
    +23
    Thus proving the futility of the trinitarian position.
     
  6. I.S.L.A.M617

    I.S.L.A.M617 Illuminatus

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2010
    Messages:
    4,180
    Ratings:
    +167
    Only difference being that there is a clear, historical record of the Holocaust. A lot more than you can say for Jesus, let alone the claims he was divine.
     
  7. BornAgain

    BornAgain Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2013
    Messages:
    332
    Ratings:
    +5
    PAGE 755-A 8-6-13
    You rightly quoted these two verses about the Holy Spirit, but you ignored the fact that the Holy Spirit and the Lord Jesus Christ are ONE in these two verses.

    Jn 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
    Jn 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

    The Comforter here is the same as the Holy Spirit and in 14:26.

    And if you compare this verse,

    1 John 2:27
    But you have received the Holy Spirit, and he lives within you, so you don’t need anyone to teach you what is true. For the Spirit teaches you everything you need to know, and what he teaches is true—it is not a lie. So just as he has taught you, remain in fellowship with Christ.

    To these verses,

    1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
    1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
    1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
    1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

    You should be able to see and understand that the Holy Spirit and God are ONE in those verses, and this same Holy Spirit and the Lord Jesus Christ from John 14:16-17, 14:26 are ONE. Now, if you can not SEE from the verses you quoted and verses that I quoted “THE TRINITY” then you are really pushing the truth out even if it staring right in front you.

    You perfectly quoted those verses about “THE TRINITY”, which you have been denying consciously, but here you are admitting it, “THE TRINITY”, unconsciously.

    To my amazement, instead of me providing the evidence, about the UNITY of God, the Son of God, and the Holy Spirit, it was you who were actually providing those things.
     
  8. BornAgain

    BornAgain Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2013
    Messages:
    332
    Ratings:
    +5
    So, you agreed with these verses,

    Jn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    Jn 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
     
  9. BornAgain

    BornAgain Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2013
    Messages:
    332
    Ratings:
    +5
    PAGE 755-B 8-6-13
    I was just following your statement. I rightly quoted you, didn’t I?

    I was your words we are arguing here and not mine, therefore, you should be able to understand where you coming from, or from what theory you predicated your argument about.

    This is your argument,

    “sometime before the beginning, God created Jesus”

    You base this on Colossians 1:15, but according Genesis 1:1 there was no mention of this.

    I am just clarifying your argument by means of deductive reasoning, otherwise, we could just say anything we want and do not need to provide any proof at all.
     
  10. captainbryce

    captainbryce Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2013
    Messages:
    901
    Ratings:
    +23
    I haven't "ignored" anything. The scripture DOESN'T say that they are ONE. It says that the Holy Spirit is an "advocate" of Jesus Christ, not the same person as Jesus Christ.

    Again, NOT WHAT IT SAYS! It says: "and he shall give you ANOTHER comforter,". Clearly this indicates that this second comforter is something different altogether, and not the same person. This is the plain reading of the text!

    Your argument is a non-sequitur!

    First of all, let's translate those scriptures into English since I don't speak Shakespeare and because there are no such things as "ghosts":

    1 Corinthians 2:10-13
    10 But it was to us that God revealed these things by his Spirit. For his Spirit searches out everything and shows us God’s deep secrets. 11 No one can know a person’s thoughts except that person’s own spirit, and no one can know God’s thoughts except God’s own Spirit. 12 And we have received God’s Spirit (not the world’s spirit), so we can know the wonderful things God has freely given us. 13 When we tell you these things, we do not use words that come from human wisdom. Instead, we speak words given to us by the Spirit, using the Spirit’s words to explain spiritual truths.

    Now, scripture clearly indicates that the Holy Spirit is merely "God's Spirit". It is a part of him in the same way that our spirit is part of us. But we do not apply anthropomorphism to our own spirit (as it if is a separate "person" than we are), so there is no reason to do that with God. When scripture speaks of his Spirit "seeking out" or "doing work", that is merely an expression. It does not denote "personhood". Secondly, the scriptures say NOTHING of God's spirit being one with Christ to any more of a degree that God's spirit is one with US. You cannot draw a conclusion based on this scripture that Jesus is the same person as God without drawing the same conclusion about ALL Christians.

    I cannot see what doesn't exist. Especially when there is scripture standing in the way of your claims! Not only is there no trinity based on the verses we are discussing, but God's word flat out rules out the possibility of a "trinity", therefore there is no trinity!

    I didn't do anything of the sort (consciously or otherwise). What's happening is that you are applying the trinity concept to verses that indicate nothing of the kind. You are making those verses about trinity, when they really aren't and you're using circular reasoning to do it.
     
  11. captainbryce

    captainbryce Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2013
    Messages:
    901
    Ratings:
    +23
    I agree with the fact that Jesus was WITH God in the beginning. I disagree that he WAS God, and I contend that John 1 is poorly translated from Greek.

    All the primarily Trinitarian-based objections to translating "and the Word was God" as "a god" amount to little more than presupposition or special pleading. Though such faulty, superficial objections have been cut and pasted frequently on the internet, they are poorly researched and often misleading. The Coptic text of John 1:1 was made prior to the adoption of the Trinity doctrine by Egyptian and other churches, and it is poor scholarship to attempt to "read back" a translation such as "the Word was God" into any exegesis of the Coptic text. Such a rendering is foreign to Coptic John 1:1, which clearly and literally says, "the Word was a god."
     
  12. captainbryce

    captainbryce Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2013
    Messages:
    901
    Ratings:
    +23
    I don't know if you did or not because you also used two different fonts, three different colors, and multiple run-on sentences! Perhaps if you cleaned up your presentation, I could decipher your actual meaning. :rolleyes:

    Case in point ^^^ "I was your words we are arguing" - ??? Perhaps that's one of the reasons I can't understand you, because your sentences are not intelligible.

    Yes, that is my argument. My argument goes further to suggest that there doesn't have to be any mention of that in Genesis 1:1 in order for it to be true. Not everything about creation is recorded in Genesis 1 because that is only ONE of many creation accounts. Genesis 1 doesn't tell us that God created the Angels, or that one-third of them rebelled, or that Satan was cast out of heaven, or that God stretched out the heavens, or that he wrapped the earth in thick layers of clouds when he created the earth. But other creation accounts DO tell us these things! So we can infer from other scriptures (outside of Genesis) what also happened in the beginning (or in this case BEFORE the beginning) of creation.
     
  13. BornAgain

    BornAgain Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2013
    Messages:
    332
    Ratings:
    +5
    PAGE 756-A 8-7-13
    You should check the meaning of the word “ANOTHER”. Its either “HETEROS” i.e., different or “ALLOS” i.e., the SAME.
    Jn 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another/ALLOS [SAME] Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

    There is only one meaning to that, the Holy Spirit and the Lord Jesus Christ are One.
     
  14. BornAgain

    BornAgain Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2013
    Messages:
    332
    Ratings:
    +5
    I base my argument on the right premises and that is the reason why I get the same conclusion all the time.

    This is your argument,

    “sometime before the beginning, God created Jesus”

    You base this on Colossians 1:15, but according Genesis 1:1 there was no mention of this.

    That is the RIGHT MEANING OF NON-SEQUITUR. NO BASIS AT ALL.

    Some religions, both ancient and modern, require no historical basis, for they depend upon ideas rather than events. Christianity is not one of these.

    The basis of my argument against you is so deep, deeper than Judaism.

    When the Lord Jesus Christ said, Jn 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

    That is how deep my religion is, even before Judaism, and not base on human ideas.
     
    #7554 BornAgain, Aug 7, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2013
  15. captainbryce

    captainbryce Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2013
    Messages:
    901
    Ratings:
    +23
    Actually, I DID check it!

    The word heteros means "different" and occurs only ONCE in scripture (Philippians 3:15).

    Philippians 3:15
    Let all who are spiritually mature agree on these things. If you disagree on some point [heteros], I believe God will make it plain to you.

    Philippians 3:15 (King James Version)
    Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded [heteros], God shall reveal even this unto you

    However, word allos means "another" or "other", NOT "same".

    Mark 12:32
    The teacher of religious law replied, “Well said, Teacher. You have spoken the truth by saying that there is only one God and no other [allos]

    Mark 12:32 (King James Version)
    And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other [allos] but he:

    John 5:32
    But someone else [allos] is also testifying about me, and I assure you that everything he says about me is true.

    John 5:32 (King James Version)
    There is another [allos] that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.

    Technically, neither of those is the word used in John 14:16, because in that passage, the word "allon" is used (a variant of allos which also means "another", as in someone else). ;)

    John 14:16
    And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another [allon] Advocate, who will never leave you.

    Mark 14:58
    “We heard him say, ‘I will destroy this Temple made with human hands, and in three days I will build another [allon], made without human hands.’”

    Luke 7:20
    John’s two disciples found Jesus and said to him, “John the Baptist sent us to ask, ‘Are you the Messiah we’ve been expecting, or should we keep looking for someone else [allon]?’”

    So in conclusion....YOU'RE WRONG! :yes:
     
  16. captainbryce

    captainbryce Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2013
    Messages:
    901
    Ratings:
    +23
    I've demonstrated several times on this thread that your premises are NOT right! You have been making conclusions that are based on factually incorrect premises.

    That has already been addressed. There doesn't have to be a mention of everything that happened in the creation process in Genesis 1:1. You assuming that there does and then choosing to draw a conclusion based on that premise is a non-squitur.

    Irrelevant! The historical basis for "creation" is recorded in many different ways, through different creation accounts throughout the bible. One verse from one book of the bible does not describe the entirety of the creation process.

    But the basis for you argument against me is also flawed, being that it is based on a false premise.
     
  17. Monotheist 101

    Monotheist 101 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2013
    Messages:
    1,106
    Ratings:
    +71
    The problem I have with Jesus or any other human being regarded as God is as follows..

    That would imply that the Jews are the supreme race, as God was one of them. I have noticed how black churches have a black christ and white ones have a white christ.. IMO transforming God into man promotes racism or racial inequality..
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. 1robin

    1robin Christian/Baptist

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2012
    Messages:
    14,144
    Ratings:
    +359
    Religion:
    Christian
    Being a member of a race does not make the race superior. Jesus was not conceived by the natural Jewish conception so I don't even think the premise is correct. God could have become an Eskimo or a Babylonian and that would have nothing to do with either being superior. However God did promise Abraham his descendants (through Isaac) would be his children and produce the messiah, but that has it's ups and downs as well. I am not a Hebrew why does this not offend me?

    We all have the same Christ. You are describing pictures, that no Christian should and almost none actually worship or pray to. I do not know if Christ was exactly God or not (He certainly was no mere teacher or man), nor do I need to, but what race he was born into has no affect on it.
     
  19. captainbryce

    captainbryce Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2013
    Messages:
    901
    Ratings:
    +23
    No it wouldn't. Not unless the OT specifically said that they were a superior race. Clearly, the bible teaches that the Lord does not discriminate between Jew and Gentile. There is no such thing as "race" as far as God is concerned. It is purely a social construct. However, there were different tribes and nations. Jews WERE the chosen people at one point because they were the ones who actually accepted God and obeyed his commandments (for a while), while other "races" (really nations) rejected God in favor of false religion. In any case, your assumption also fails for the fact that it was the Jews who ultimately conspired to have Christ killed! A race that executes their own messiah? Just how "superior" could they possibly be?

    First of all, not all Christians identify Christ as the living God or conform to the traditional doctrine of trinity, although we all accept that he is the Son of God. Secondly, the reason why black churches often depict a black Jesus is in response to the vast majority of Christian churches (for centuries) depicting Jesus, not as a middle eastern Jew, but as a pale skinned, blonde haired, blue eyed, Caucasian. Now, that's fine if everyone else in your church is looks like that and you want the to see Jesus as "one of them", but in addition to being misleading, such depictions are also exclusive towards other racist. To create "white Jesus" in the first place was a racist act. But many people who took it for granted never considered that it might be racist, and such imagery was accepted for years as benign. Even today, people don't really consider such depictions as a big deal. And this is why black people have adopted a mentality of depicting Jesus as someone who they can identify with. I'm sure there are also some Hispanic and Asian Jesus' out there too. But at the end of the day, it doesn't matter what race Jesus is depicted as. Because most Christians recognize that even though we know Jesus was a Jew, nobody knows exactly what Jesus looked like, nor does it matter. Unlike how Islam treats Mohammad, we have no reservations about depicting Jesus in anyway, so long as it is a positive depiction. Race is irrelevant!
     
  20. Shermana

    Shermana Heretic

    Joined:
    May 15, 2011
    Messages:
    10,814
    Ratings:
    +327
    Ahem...Canaanite woman was called a dog.

    I've seen some attempts to say Jesus didn't really mean it or he was being facetecious, or testing her faith because he gave her request in the end but....he was kinda saying Canaanites are dogs. He only granted the request in the end after she admitted she was a dog.
     
Loading...