horizon_mj1
Well-Known Member
If Jesus was claiming He was God, why did He say He will inherit the earth? Being a spokes man for a company does not make you the owner does it?
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Did Jesus say he was God???
- Thread starter Muffled
- Start date
And to put it beyond any doubt, not only do tens of translations in different languages render it "the Lamb in the midst/center of the Throne", but also:
The New World Translation (of the JW) renders it: (Rev 7:17)
because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them, and will guide them to fountains of waters of life. And God will wipe out every tear from their eyes.”
And if someone wants to try to twist the meaning of midst
From Oxford Dictionary:
preposition:in the middle of
noun: the middle part or point
Now if anyone wants to deny all these translations (including the NWT) and all the Greek Grammar books and dictionaries, be my guest. Make up your own lies and feel free to believe them.
The New World Translation (of the JW) renders it: (Rev 7:17)
because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them, and will guide them to fountains of waters of life. And God will wipe out every tear from their eyes.”
And if someone wants to try to twist the meaning of midst
From Oxford Dictionary:
preposition:in the middle of
noun: the middle part or point
Now if anyone wants to deny all these translations (including the NWT) and all the Greek Grammar books and dictionaries, be my guest. Make up your own lies and feel free to believe them.
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Shermana
Heretic
So hard to admit defeat, isn't it?
Good night.
You are great proof. "In the midst of wolves" does not mean "In the direct physical center of wolves", but you're welcome to your opinion. Even if I said "In the center of enemies", it doesn't mean you are perfectly in the center with enemies around. It CAN mean "Middle" but not in the direct literal sense. If I said I was in the middle of the street, perhaps. If I said I was in the middle of doing something, no.
As I said, The usage of "In the midst of the Rock Star" means "Near him". You had no counter to that except calling it "useless words".
Here's another interesting thing, the word "Middle" itself, especially in King James times, did not necessarily mean as it applies today as "center" but merely "In between" or "near". It CAN mean center but not necessarily. As we can see, the addition of the genetive presuposition makes the case different. You even brought this up earlier without addressing the details that I did.
I do appreciate you showcasing Trinitarian logic though.O.E. middel, from W.Gmc. *middila (cf. M.L.G., Du. middel), from P.Gmc. *medjaz (see mid). Middle age "period between youth and old age" is attested from late 14c.; middle aged first recorded c.1600. Middle name first attested 1835, Amer.Eng. Middlebrow
amidlate 14c., from amidde (c.1200), from O.E. on middan "in the middle," from dative singular of midde "mid, middle" (see midde); the phrase evidently was felt as "in (the) middle" and thus followed by a genitive case, as we would follow it today with of. (See amidst for further evolution along this line). The same applies to equivalents in Latin (in medio) and Greek (en meso), both originally adjective phrases which evolved to take the genitive case. But in later O.E. on middan also was treated as a preposition and followed by dative. Used in compounds from early 13c. (e.g. amidships, attested from 1690s and retaining the genitive, as the compounds usually did in early M.E., suggesting this one is considerably older than the written record of it.)
Midst | Define Midst at Dictionary.comamidstThere is a tendency to use amidst more distributively than amid, e.g. of things scattered about, or a thing moving, in the midst of others. [OED]
medial
Antonyms
1, 2. edge, periphery.
It CAN mean Middle but not in the sense of "Center of the room", only figuartively. Using it for "Center of the Throne", is a classic Trinitarian abuse that many translations cater to, but its clearly incorrect use of the word. Normally, You don't say "I sat in the midst of the chair", but to a Trinitarian you do.
Definition 2, "Midst of the storm" doesn't mean you arrived in the direct center of the storm. You are welcome to believe that "Midst of the storm" and "Midst of wolves" means "Direct center of the storm" and "Direct center of the wolves" as long as you accept the possibility that it can mean "In the vicinity of". But if you insist that it CANNOT mean this, there's a problem. Midst of a crowd does not mean "center of a crowd".
As Dirty Penguin agreed, it appears that the translators who use "Center of the throne" are DELIBERATELY being dishonest in their catering to their Trinitarian market by saying Jesus was on the throne as opposed to near it since it is never actually used as "direct center of" in any other case but "In the midst of" as in nearby. You are welcome to your opinion as long as you understand yours is not likely the case.
I challenged you to find 5 other times it is used as "Direct center", you refused that challenge.
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Shermana
Heretic
Not only that, but his power was GIVEN to him. Usually a giving requires two parties, a receiver and a benefactor.
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
No one, other than you, is fixated on insisting "in the midst of" means center. In the context of Rev. 7:17 we have to look back at previous chapters and verses. This is why I say chapter 4 and 5 clears up your misconceptions.
Rev. 5:6
And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
Rev. 5:6
And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
It is hard to explain away the fact that the Lamb (Yeshua as we're constantly told) is seen by all to be "standing" in the midst of he who sat upon the throne (obviously not Yeshua but "God" as chapter 4 explains) and in the midst of the elders who were sitting upon their thrones. "In the midst of" has less to do with (center or middle) and more to do with (nearness). If you go by 7:17 you get lost in translation which is where you are now but in lieu of 4 and 5 it becomes clear.
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I've already replied to that yesterday. I showed the meaning of the word in Greek and English.
Repeating the same arguments is useless.
Calling translations deliberately dishonest is useless too.
Until you show a reference that specifically says that " ana meson" cannot mean "in the center/midst of" and has to mean "near" or whatever meaning you wish to impose, then your words are useless.
I've already proven my view.
I know it's so hard for you to admit defeat, so I understand your attempts
ps Try to browse your yesterday's posts and see how many different meanings you tried to give, in opposition to the meaning agreed upon by translators and Greek books.
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javajo
Well-Known Member
The following link shows the verses which show Jesus is God, "Yahweh". They both are Creator, First and Last, I AM, "ego eimi", Judge, King, Light, Rock, Saviour, and Shepherd. Jesus is God | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry
I've replied to that too yesterday and probably some replies were to the same questions by you.
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
In context is has to do more with "near" than it does to "center". Context says a lot. Chapter 7 references "God" who sits on the throne (kai) - (and) the Lamb whom we know is standing.
javajo
Well-Known Member
Yeah that is a good chart. I couldn't get mine to print out right, so I just gave the link and a brief explanation.Yes, it's nice, thanks.
This one gives a cool summary too:
Like your friend: Useless words
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
Well, why did you join a debate forum if I you're going to do ignore those who challenge you and pander to those who agree with you....
What is useless is using 7:17 all by itself and ignoring the context which leads up to you. You've failed to show that 7:17 is referring to Yeshua as being seated when I've already shown you he's standing in the midst why his god was seated.
I guess we find ourselves at a stalemate in this debate.
javajo
Well-Known Member
I don't know what you all are arguing about concerning the throne and all, but here is a passage I like:
But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified (being made holy). Hebrews 10:12-14
But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified (being made holy). Hebrews 10:12-14
Shermana
Heretic
You need Hebrews 10:26 for the context of 14.
New International Version (©1984)
If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,
New Living Translation (©2007)
Dear friends, if we deliberately continue sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice that will cover these sins.
English Standard Version (©2001)
For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
International Standard Version (©2008)
For if we choose to go on sinning we learned the full truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
If we go on sinning after we have learned the truth, no sacrifice can take away our sins.
King James Bible
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
javajo
Well-Known Member
You only needed one translation, I believe the Bible, but reading it in context with the rest of the chapter (and the rest of the Bible), I believe:
According to v. 17-18, it simply means God has forgiven those who have trusted Christ to have paid for their sins, so since our sins have been forgiven, we need no other offering (from Hebrews 10):
And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. (17,18)
So now we can have, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, (19b)
and we can, draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, (22)
and we can, hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised) (23)
and we can, consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: (24)
Because: the just shall live by faith: (38)
and, we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. (39)
Shermana
Heretic
So you're saying that the meaning of the verse is "You can go on sinning and no other sin offering is necessary", that's why I highligted the ones in red because I knew you'd say that.
Anyways, I guess you also need 27 because there will in fact be interpretations such as teh above.
I'm also going to take a guess and say that your interpretation of 28-29 is that I'm trampling on the cross with my interpretation. I'll just say the same thing about yours if you do.
Do you know what "Draw back into perdition" means? It doesn't just mean not believing that Jesus saved you.
Anyways, I guess you also need 27 because there will in fact be interpretations such as teh above.
Now put those two together and you get quite a different picture than what you're saying. BUT I do like the proof of how cherry picking can get the context to say what you want.
I'm also going to take a guess and say that your interpretation of 28-29 is that I'm trampling on the cross with my interpretation. I'll just say the same thing about yours if you do.
I'll say your argument for you: Saying that you actually have to obey and not sin to attain Salvation is insulting the Spirit of Grace in your view. Right? Well that's the complete opposite of my interpretation, which is if you think you can go ahead sinning that there's no consequence.
It was certainly a dreadful thing for Ananias and Sapphira wasn't it...
Do you know what "Draw back into perdition" means? It doesn't just mean not believing that Jesus saved you.
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Colossians 3:1 Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.---Scripture Quotations Taken from the NASB
I think it's rather obvious that Christ is seated by God the Father. Will He always be seated there? Well, He will have a mission to do as it is pointed out in the book of Revelation.
Revelation 19:11 ¶ And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war.
12 His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself.
13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses.
15 From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.
16 And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, "KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."---Scripture Quotations Taken from the NASB
javajo
Well-Known Member
I agree. I hope he hurries up and catches us up in the air to be with him (1 Thess. 4:17), before all that!