Did Jesus really have to die for our sins?

[mr black]

What makes you all think that Jesus was sinless? The money changers that he whipped may beg to differ.

 

[Pegg]

if man continued being innocent of their actions, they could have continued living forever...hate, jealousy, coveting, lying and killing... all those things would have been dealt with innocently...just because their eyes were not opened to good and evil doesn't mean those feelings are not to be dealt with.

that we can agree on, yes. They could have lived forever.

But the qualities you describe are those which the scriptures say are the 'works of the flesh' because they are what happens when a persons personality is not governed by love...they fall into hate, lying, killing. If we are all governed by love for our fellowman then these bad traits would dwindle away.

 

[mr black]

that we can agree on, yes. They could have lived forever.

But the qualities you describe are those which the scriptures say are the 'works of the flesh' because they are what happens when a persons personality is not governed by love...they fall into hate, lying, killing. If we are all governed by love for our fellowman then these bad traits would dwindle away.

God made Adam and Eve to live forever is what you and many others have told us, I have never heard that this immortality was linked directly to a tree of life. Perhaps you could produce some of your scripture in support?

 

[Pegg]

God made Adam and Eve to live forever is what you and many others have told us, I have never heard that this immortality was linked directly to a tree of life. Perhaps you could produce some of your scripture in support?

they were not immortal the tree had nothing to do with immortality. Even angels are not immortal, yet angels live forever (well the faithful ones do, satan obviously wont)

Genesis 3 says ïn the day you eat from it you will surely die'
death would only come as a result of disobedience...nothing else was mentioned as a cause for death...only disobedience. So if they never disobeyed, they would never have experienced death.

 

[mr black]

they were not immortal the tree had nothing to do with immortality. Even angels are not immortal, yet angels live forever (well the faithful ones do, satan obviously wont)

Genesis 3 says ïn the day you eat from it you will surely die'
death would only come as a result of disobedience...nothing else was mentioned as a cause for death...only disobedience. So if they never disobeyed, they would never have experienced death.

Unfortunately they didn't die that day.........strike.
Adams sins have been absolved by Jesus........strike
So if a person doesn't disobey now, they won't die..........strike

Looks like you don't need armageddon to live forever. YAY you.

 

[Pegg]

Unfortunately they didn't die that day.........strike.

according to the scriptures "1,000 years is as one day"" in Gods eyes. Adam died within one day.
Moses was writing Gods words. If moses was writing his own ideas, why would he state the man would die in 1 day, but then later mention the man lived for 930 years then he died?

wouldnt make much sense unless Moses was writing from Gods perspective...1,000 years is 1 day to God.

Adams sins have been absolved by Jesus........strike

Adam is not atoned for. He will not be recieving a resurrection and he will have no 2nd chance because he was a perfect man with no excuse to disobey. As the scritpure says "there is no sacrifice for sins" for a person who willfully and deliberately disobeyes Gods laws when they themselves know God.

So if a person doesn't disobey now, they won't die..........strike

not according to the book of revelation.

 

[mr black]

Where did Moses claim that a day=1,000yrs?

 

[Pegg]

Where did Moses claim that a day=1,000yrs?

Moses recorded Gods judgement "ïn the day that you eat from it you will die"
He also recorded the age of Adam when he died....""930yrs""

Other scriptures provide the information about time from Gods perspective.
Ps. 90:4 “A thousand years are in your eyes but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch during the night.”

2Peter 3:8 However, let this one fact not be escaping YOUR notice, beloved ones, that one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day

 

[mr black]

Moses recorded Gods judgement "ïn the day that you eat from it you will die"
He also recorded the age of Adam when he died....""930yrs""

Other scriptures provide the information about time from Gods perspective.
Ps. 90:4 “A thousand years are in your eyes but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch during the night.”

2Peter 3:8 However, let this one fact not be escaping YOUR notice, beloved ones, that one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day

The first quote is, at the very best, ambiguous.
The second was stated thousands of years after the fact and miraculously covers the FACT that they didn't die on the day. How convenient is that. Thousands of years after, when someone noticed the discrepancy someone came up with an explanation, not a very convincing explanation but never mind.

 

[nnmartin]

Mr Black - you are just confusing human time with God time.

they are 2 different things.

God time does not even have to work in a linear fashion as human logic would dictate.

It is Divine Time.

 

[mr black]

Mr Black - you are just confusing human time with God time.

they are 2 different things.

God time does not even have to work in a linear fashion as human logic would dictate.

It is Divine Time.

It's fairly obvious that I'm not the one who is confused.
For an infinite being time does not exist, that's patently obvious. Infinity exceeds time. Now explain to me again about your god's time?

 

[nnmartin]

God is above and beyond any human concept of time and infinity.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

So he's exempt from making accurate statements about time? Sounds like he lied.

 

[Koldo]

does not the tree of 'life' signify that everlasting life was a possibility. The scripture you just put up implies that the tree of life could have enabled the man to live forever.

So everlasting life was possible, but God did not allow the man to live forever due to his sin.... it stands to reason that if the man had not sinned, he would have been permitted to live forever.

But would they eventually eat from the tree of life? Who knows?

 

[nnmartin]

So he's exempt from making accurate statements about time? Sounds like he lied.

sounds more like you can't deal with a theological concept.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

sounds more like you can't deal with a theological concept.

Sounds more like you can't deal with a true/false one!

 

[Heathen Hammer]

God: "Adam, if you eat of the Tree, you will die that day"

Adam: *munch* *lives 900 years*

God: "Doh. My watch seems to have stopped." *throws hourglass*

 

[nnmartin]

but you seem to expect religion to work in the same way as Science or standard history - why should it?

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Because that's the all way things work. religion isn't exempt.

Dog Whisperer Fallacy

 

[mr black]

but you seem to expect religion to work in the same way as Science or standard history - why should it?

He's right Hammer, if you can't make it up as you go, then what's the point of religion?