Did Jesus really have to die for our sins?

[filthy tugboat]

Human killed Jesus, if anyone demands and explanation it should be God, we saw the perfect light of God and our first reaction was to kill it.

Who's? Who saw the perfect light of God? Who killed it?

Now did God allow it?

Was it God's plan?

Yes, because the wages of sin is death (Rom 6:23)

So Jesus sinned and that's why he died? Or are you trying to say something else?

God took responsibility for our sins and bore them on the cross,

Did he? Why? Why did the cross have to happen?

he payed the debt and now we are freemen and freewomen.

So let me get this straight, There was a debt between humans to God, humans owed God, they were in debt to God. So God sacrificed himself to himself to scratch a debt that was owed to him? Wait what? That makes little to no sense... Why was the sacrifice necessary? Why was God incapable of just scratching the debt without human sacrifice?

 

[fishy]

Hey Tug, for some reason they don't get it that this great sacrifice was completely, utterly unnecessary.

 

[idav]

Hey Tug, for some reason they don't get it that this great sacrifice was completely, utterly unnecessary.

They need there to be a reason for such an atrocity to happen. They have to justify a father, who is god, killing his son. It is nonsense to say god has to do such a thing, there is no good justification for having to kill your son.

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

They need there to be a reason for such an atrocity to happen. They have to justify a father, who is god, killing his son. It is nonsense to say god has to do such a thing, there is no good justification for having to kill your son.

If people had read my post on here they wouldnt keep talking about God "killing his son", which is not Christian doctrine whatsoever. I gave you people clear cut Christian doctrine regarding Jesus dying on the cross for the sins of mankind. But instead of reading and taking heed to it, you people want to continue with your vile misrepresentation of the Christ atonement and then do your best to shed it in the worse light possible. It blows my mind. In order to justify your not believing, just continue to attack beliefs that the opposing party dont hold. Straw man.

 

[fishy]

If people had read my post on here they wouldnt keep talking about God "killing his son", which is not Christian doctrine whatsoever. I gave you people clear cut Christian doctrine regarding Jesus dying on the cross for the sins of mankind. But instead of reading and taking heed to it, you people want to continue with your vile misrepresentation of the Christ atonement and then do your best to shed it in the worse light possible. It blows my mind. In order to justify your not believing, just continue to attack beliefs that the opposing party dont hold. Straw man.

Oh really, to whom was the atonement made, who received the sacrifice, who provided a reward for said sacrifice, who demanded said sacrifice?

 

[waitasec]

If people had read my post on here they wouldnt keep talking about God "killing his son", which is not Christian doctrine whatsoever. I gave you people clear cut Christian doctrine regarding Jesus dying on the cross for the sins of mankind. But instead of reading and taking heed to it, you people want to continue with your vile misrepresentation of the Christ atonement and then do your best to shed it in the worse light possible. It blows my mind. In order to justify your not believing, just continue to attack beliefs that the opposing party dont hold. Straw man.

 

[Thief]

I didn't ask for evidence, I have all the evidence I need, I'm not a cop
Why is life after death the rational assumption?
It is the result of conceit, hubris, you are too important just to end, there must be more than this 4score and ten.............you are just so important.
The evidence denies your rational assumption as does rational thought, as opposed to wishful thinking.

Nay to all....6billion people will die within my lifetime.
Are you not assuming there is no life after death?
No survivors?

No judgment?...as if all that do survive will continue to do so?

Easier to say...life has requirements in this world....then ask...
how much more in the next?

 

[fishy]

Nay to all....6billion people will die within my lifetime.
Are you not assuming there is no life after death?
No survivors?

No judgment?...as if all that do survive will continue to do so?

Easier to say...life has requirements in this world....then ask...
how much more in the next?

Why would ANYONE survive DEATH? Maybe because you are too important to JUST STOP? Good luck with that. :biglaugh:

 

[Falvlun]

If people had read my post on here they wouldnt keep talking about God "killing his son", which is not Christian doctrine whatsoever. I gave you people clear cut Christian doctrine regarding Jesus dying on the cross for the sins of mankind. But instead of reading and taking heed to it, you people want to continue with your vile misrepresentation of the Christ atonement and then do your best to shed it in the worse light possible. It blows my mind. In order to justify your not believing, just continue to attack beliefs that the opposing party dont hold. Straw man.

Wasn't Jesus' sacrifice God's plan to atone mankind?

 

[idav]

If people had read my post on here they wouldnt keep talking about God "killing his son", which is not Christian doctrine whatsoever. I gave you people clear cut Christian doctrine regarding Jesus dying on the cross for the sins of mankind. But instead of reading and taking heed to it, you people want to continue with your vile misrepresentation of the Christ atonement and then do your best to shed it in the worse light possible. It blows my mind. In order to justify your not believing, just continue to attack beliefs that the opposing party dont hold. Straw man.

For god so loved the world(more than his son?).....that he gave his only son....

Was it us or jesus put up for ransom and how was the ransom paid?

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

For god so loved the world(more than his son?).....that he gave his only son....

Was it us or jesus put up for ransom and how was the ransom paid?

If that is where you drew your conclusion from, I can see how the John 3:16 scripture can be a bit misleading lol. Phil 2:5-9 tells us that Jesus was God, and in order to carry out the ransom, he lowered his position and became a servant of God (or Son) and became a man to die on the cross. But this was jointly both the Father and the Son's will that this event took place. So its not as if God created Jesus as his Son and Jesus carried out the will of his Father.

My bad, didn't mean to come so strong in that other post, I can see why one would think that at first glance.

 

[Koldo]

If that is where you drew your conclusion from, I can see how the John 3:16 scripture can be a bit misleading lol. Phil 2:5-9 tells us that Jesus was God, and in order to carry out the ransom, he lowered his position and became a servant of God (or Son) and became a man to die on the cross. But this was jointly both the Father and the Son's will that this event took place. So its not as if God created Jesus as his Son and Jesus carried out the will of his Father.

My bad, didn't mean to come so strong in that other post, I can see why one would think that at first glance.

If God is omnipotent, why did he go through this process?
I am being specific about the process of choice.

 

[Thief]

Why would ANYONE survive DEATH? Maybe because you are too important to JUST STOP? Good luck with that. :biglaugh:

Why not?

Otherwise, all that you have become will end up as dust

 

[waitasec]

all that you have become will end up as dust

pretty much...

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

If God is omnipotent, why did he go through this process?
I am being specific about the process of choice.

Maybe he wanted to show his love for mankind. This is equivilent to you standing before a judge and jury after you committed a crime deserving death, and right before you are sentenced, one of your friends bust through the courtroom door and say "your honor, men and women of the jury, I now lay down my life for my friend, and I ask that you spare his life and take my life instead."

I don't know anyone that will be willing to die for a crime that I committed. That is love.

 

[Koldo]

Maybe he wanted to show his love for mankind. This is equivilent to you standing before a judge and jury after you committed a crime deserving death, and right before you are sentenced, one of your friends bust through the courtroom door and say "your honor, men and women of the jury, I now lay down my life for my friend, and I ask that you spare his life and take my life instead."

I don't know anyone that will be willing to die for a crime that I committed. That is love.

This is far from equivalent.

Your analogy would only be accurate IF the friend was the judge, the court and had control over the entire executive, legislator and judicial system.
This is to say it would be highly useless to sacrifice oneself for this aim.

 

[filthy tugboat]

Maybe he wanted to show his love for mankind. This is equivilent to you standing before a judge and jury after you committed a crime deserving death, and right before you are sentenced, one of your friends bust through the courtroom door and say "your honor, men and women of the jury, I now lay down my life for my friend, and I ask that you spare his life and take my life instead."

I don't know anyone that will be willing to die for a crime that I committed. That is love.

But if this person did that, they would be well aware that they weren't culpable for the crime and that their friend, on trial, would still die and they would not. So they did that for popularity? They made a show just to look good and appear to be a loving friend.

See vicarious redemption isn't a real thing that works. I can't take responsibility for the things other people have done, not consciously, not morally. The notion presented by Christianity is not one I could intellectually agree with, it's ridiculous. How can someone absolve someone else of responsibility for the things they have done? How can God do it? Is there a difference between the two? I don't think "magic" can answer this adequately.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Maybe he wanted to show his love for mankind.

Real love would be forgiveness without requiring payment.

In human terms, dieing to protect a loved one is a sacrifice because one loses everything, a requirement Jesus does not in any way meet.

In deific terms, no action would be needed for God to forgive. He could simply have forgiven, as any parent does, without keeping an account of sins or requiring a murder to reach forgiveness.

 

[Thief]

Real love would be forgiveness without requiring payment.

In human terms, dieing to protect a loved one is a sacrifice because one loses everything, a requirement Jesus does not in any way meet.

In deific terms, no action would be needed for God to forgive. He could simply have forgiven, as any parent does, without keeping an account of sins or requiring a murder to reach forgiveness.

I suspect we are on the same page...just using different terms.

Jesus did not die for our sins....He died because of them.

Place an intelligent fellow in a crowd of superstitious and fearful people....
and the voice of reason will die.

 

[fishy]

Real love would be forgiveness without requiring payment.

In human terms, dieing to protect a loved one is a sacrifice because one loses everything, a requirement Jesus does not in any way meet.

In deific terms, no action would be needed for God to forgive. He could simply have forgiven, as any parent does, without keeping an account of sins or requiring a murder to reach forgiveness.

That's tellin' it like it is:bow: