1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Featured Did Jesus Mention Mohamed in John 14? Only directed to Muslims

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by john14.6, Jul 12, 2021.

  1. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2019
    Messages:
    5,435
    Ratings:
    +1,624
    Religion:
    Twelver seeker
    This is from another forum a member of that forum wrote:

    Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”

    33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

    34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’[d]? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? 37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” 39 Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

    - Jesus (عليه السلام) was referring to Psalms 82:6

    "I said, 'You are "gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.'

    Here You are Gods and Sons of the Most High does not mean literal as Gods or that God literal Sons. Rather this means that they are agents of God, who represent the message and the commandments and the way that God have chosen for humankind. Their work/actions would be as what God want them to work/act.
     
  2. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2019
    Messages:
    5,435
    Ratings:
    +1,624
    Religion:
    Twelver seeker
    To me it seems they were taking his statement out of context.
     
  3. ElishaElijah

    ElishaElijah Return

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2021
    Messages:
    3,552
    Ratings:
    +304
    Religion:
    Believer
    Too many references:
    “When they heard these things they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed at him with their teeth. But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, and said, “Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!” Then they cried out with a loud voice, stopped their ears, and ran at him with one accord; and they cast him out of the city and stoned him. And the witnesses laid down their clothes at the feet of a young man named Saul. And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” Then he knelt down and cried out with a loud voice,”
    ‭‭Acts‬ ‭7:54-60‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
    Amazing picture in Heaven:
    “Then I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the scroll and to loose its seals?” And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll, or to look at it. But one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals.” And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth. Then He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne. And they sang a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth.” saying with a loud voice: “Worthy is the Lamb who was slain To receive power and riches and wisdom, And strength and honor and glory and blessing!” And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: “Blessing and honor and glory and power Be to Him who sits on the throne, And to the Lamb, forever and ever!” Then the four living creatures said, “Amen!” And the twenty-four elders fell down and worshiped Him who lives forever and ever.”
    ‭‭Revelation‬ ‭5:2-3, 5-7, 9-10, 12-14‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
    This is a Revelation of Jesus, no one else is worthy, no one.
     
    #83 ElishaElijah, Jul 13, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2021
  4. john14.6

    john14.6 New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2021
    Messages:
    9
    Ratings:
    +4
    Religion:
    Christian
    Holy Spirit do Speak to people.
     
  5. Shakeel

    Shakeel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2021
    Messages:
    1,230
    Ratings:
    +240
    Religion:
    Islam
    When you do acts of worship to humans, you worship them, so yes, you do worship them.

    I have no one specific in mind. You can't do acts of worship to anyone, but God.
     
  6. Shakeel

    Shakeel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2021
    Messages:
    1,230
    Ratings:
    +240
    Religion:
    Islam
    Then you should be able to explain and point it out.
     
  7. ElishaElijah

    ElishaElijah Return

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2021
    Messages:
    3,552
    Ratings:
    +304
    Religion:
    Believer
    I did although the subject was the Holy Spirit and was bringing up the point that Muslims seem to have no problem reading into the Scriptures concerning Muhammed. but when the Bible says clearly that Jesus is God, that Jesus is God’s only Son, the exact representation of the Father, that all things were created by Him and for Him then they look for an exact phrase or won’t see that.
     
    #87 ElishaElijah, Jul 13, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2021
  8. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2019
    Messages:
    5,435
    Ratings:
    +1,624
    Religion:
    Twelver seeker
    What acts of worship? You mean intercession which is emphasized in so many chapters? Well that is commanded in Quran, who is arrogant and doesn't come to Mohammad (s) for intercession has been condemned in the Quran in a chapter called hypocrites. It's convenient for hypocrites that with all the verses emphasizing on Mohammad's (s) intercession to say he is dead now just a way to avoid being humble to his towering position.

    Also, Mohammad's (s) spiritual position as lantern of guidance in the sky of this world that can be used as a weapon against Iblis and his forces is talked about in Quran.

    And of course, Mohammad (s) hearing us is a fact, we talk to him directly in Salah as taught by him, and we don't ask an Angel or Allah to convey this to him, but rather talk directly. Who talks directly to a person who can't hear?

    All this is not worshiping them, you are saying if God made dead hear, they would be gods? What kind of none-sense is this.
     
  9. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2019
    Messages:
    5,435
    Ratings:
    +1,624
    Religion:
    Twelver seeker
    Also, we worship God through and with Ahlulbayt (a), we glorify God with Ahlulbayt (a) teaching us and showing us the way, and helping us with their holy spirits, this is why the straight path has been emphasized to be their path.

    Guide us the straight path(1:6)
    The path of those who you favored (humanity) regarding..(1:7)

    ..say: no reward do I ask regarding it except the love in the kinsfolk...(42:23)
    ..what of a reward do I a seek regarding it except who wants to, to take a path to their Lord? (25:57)
    ..you will come to know who are the masters of the middle path....(end of Surah Taha).
     
    #89 Link, Jul 13, 2021
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2021
  10. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2019
    Messages:
    5,435
    Ratings:
    +1,624
    Religion:
    Twelver seeker
    You really don't grasp that the whole trinity was invented to make Mohammad (s) ambiguous in the Gospels, when if you don't have trinity, and accept holy spirit as a chosen position of God's guiding kings as light to all people, then Mohammad (s) is clear.

    You aren't seeing it, but inshallah, I pray one day you understand that all revelations of God teach about the perfect human and how such holy souls have been tasked to guide humanity. You just got to spiritually awaken yourself to the spiritual world and see the position of the sky/heaven to this world, and the lanterns of guidance on the journey.
     
  11. ElishaElijah

    ElishaElijah Return

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2021
    Messages:
    3,552
    Ratings:
    +304
    Religion:
    Believer
    I don’t see things like you at all… I see the whole Bible as the same story starting in Genesis and ending in Revelation.
    “You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.”
    ‭‭John‬ ‭5:39-40‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
    “Therefore, when He came into the world, He said: “Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, But a body You have prepared for Me. In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You had no pleasure. Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come— In the volume of the book it is written of Me— To do Your will, O God.’ ””
    ‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭10:5-7‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
     
  12. JerryMyers

    JerryMyers Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2020
    Messages:
    257
    Ratings:
    +50
    The question is - where in Acts 1 and Acts 2 did this Holy Spirit ever speak ??

    Anyway, the Holy Spirit communicates with man spiritually, NOT physically face-to-face with them.

    In John 16:13, Jesus is referring to the physical face-to-face communication with the people and this comforter, who is obviously a person and someone who will be strengthened with the Holy Spirit (of God), will only speak what he hears (from God) and will not speak on his own. Likewise, Jesus too speaks what he hears, and will not speak on his own (John 12:49).

    Common sense (again) should tell you that if the Comforter is the Holy Spirit per se, why would Jesus even say that the comforter will only speak what he hears from God and will not speak on his own when the Holy Spirit is already of God ?? That’s like saying someone will only speak what he hears from himself !!

    Clearly, the comforter who Jesus was talking about is a man strengthened with the Spirit of God just like Jesus himself, and that’s why Jesus said he will pray to God to send ANOTHER comforter.

    BTW, you have not responded to my earlier questions –

    Do you think there is ANOTHER Holy Spirit of God ??

    - HOW did this Holy Spirit, on the day of Pentecost, proved the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment: about sin, because people do not believe in him; about righteousness, because Jesus is going to the Father, where the people can see him no longer; and about judgment, because the prince of this world (Jesus) now stands condemned (John 16:8-11) ??
     
  13. JerryMyers

    JerryMyers Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2020
    Messages:
    257
    Ratings:
    +50
    Yes, absolutely, the Holy Spirit is about connecting and spiritually guiding humans and Jinn to God, BUT the OP of this thread is NOT concern with what the Holy Spirit is about or what’s going to happen on Judgment Day, it is concern with WHO the comforter in John 14 is.
     
  14. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2019
    Messages:
    5,435
    Ratings:
    +1,624
    Religion:
    Twelver seeker
    I'm saying Mohammad (s) (the praised one often translated as comforter) would be clear in Gospels but they make it ambiguous because they don't understand how Mohammad (s) took on the position of the holy spirit as well.

    Actually the trinity was invented to make it ambiguous otherwise holy spirit being a position held by the images of God such as Jesus (a) and Mohammad (s) is clear.
     
  15. ElishaElijah

    ElishaElijah Return

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2021
    Messages:
    3,552
    Ratings:
    +304
    Religion:
    Believer
    This verse says it all for me:
    “Then I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the scroll and to loose its seals?” And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll, or to look at it. So I wept much, because no one was found worthy to open and read the scroll, or to look at it. But one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals.””
    ‭‭Revelation‬ ‭5:2-5‬ ‭NKJV‬‬
    No one compares to Jesus Christ, he is the only one found anywhere. Not Moses, Elijah, no prophet, no man, no woman.
     
  16. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2019
    Messages:
    5,435
    Ratings:
    +1,624
    Religion:
    Twelver seeker
    Religion is for God, it's only about the chosen ones (religion) so far as God has favored humanity with his religion to be about them as they are the means to him, but really, it's about Worshiping God. The chosen ones are the means to God and are highly honored in his eyes, but, it's not about them, or making distinction of one of them (Jesus) over all the rest, but rather, to see that they are the means to God but to intend to worship God and come to God in all that.

    Christians make it all about Jesus (a), but really, to me, religion is about God, not a person. Mohammad (s) and his family (a) are the means to God, that is why the favor upon humanity is regarding them as he completed the religion through announcing the Messenger (s) declaring their Mastery upon humanity, but at the end, it's about them getting us to God and imparting us with his teachings. The light they manifest and proof and the position of holy spirit, is all about connecting us to God.
     
  17. ElishaElijah

    ElishaElijah Return

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2021
    Messages:
    3,552
    Ratings:
    +304
    Religion:
    Believer
    What I see is that mankind was talked in to doubting God, that God was holding out on us and couldn’t be trusted so we sinned, this resulted in death and the relationship between God and man damaged. The Bible is the story of this Fall, the process of God restoring this relationship, demonstrating to man that He is withholding nothing from us, we can trust Him, He is freely giving us all things. In the Old Testament God spoke through His Prophets about the coming of the Messiah, He would be the sacrifice for our sins, all we like sheep have gone astray but the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all. Jesus Christ the Messiah shows up and fulfills the prophecies with signs and wonders, no sin or deceit is found in His mouth. He declares that He is the Way, the Truth and the Life that no man comes to the Father except through Him. He is crucified, buried and rose from the dead according to the Scriptures. This is how God demonstrated His love for us, while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. Those that believe this and receive Jesus Christ are born again and given the Holy Spirit as a guarantee of our inheritance.
    So I’m not trusting in my own merits when I stand before God, my boast and trusting is in Jesus Christ, I’m covered by His Blood, trusting in what He has done for me. My relationship with God has been restored and my sin taken away. I can’t tell you the joy this brings and why I shout to God and praise Him!
     
  18. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2019
    Messages:
    5,435
    Ratings:
    +1,624
    Religion:
    Twelver seeker
    The way and truth, what was that before Jesus (a) came? To me whatever that was, that was what Jesus (a) meant, not a new paradigm and religion.
     
  19. loverofhumanity

    loverofhumanity Well-Known Member
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Messages:
    8,566
    Ratings:
    +4,364
    Religion:
    Baha'i Faith
    My understanding is that because Christ mentioned ‘He’, a personal pronoun, He was referring to a Personage endowed with the Holy Spirit.
     
Loading...