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Featured Did Jesus lie?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by TruePathFinder, Aug 19, 2018.

  1. Jon reign

    Jon reign Member

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    Sorry to offend. My intended meaning was why are we using small words like "yet" to make Jesus a liar or not. I am curious what significance this has in the original language. I would like if you could provide a link perhaps. I cannot find the original text.
     
  2. Jon reign

    Jon reign Member

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    I'm sorry. I Don' follow
     
  3. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

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    Like I said, I'm not going to play games with you, and if you have decided that I don't know what I', m talking about, then I don't give a flying fig about whether or not you want an explanation for my comments, to match some arbitrary idea you seem to have.
     
    #23 Desert Snake, Aug 19, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2018
  4. Jon reign

    Jon reign Member

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    Could you offer scholarly input to validate your claims? Or offer scholarly instruction for laymen?
     
  5. Jon reign

    Jon reign Member

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    Your response seems to be fairly rude and I'll mannered. I have asked you fair and respectful questions. I do disagree with some of your content, but is my disagreement a justification for you to become offended? My main disagreement is how speculative the conversation is. I never met Jesus so I must rely on the texts to formulate an opinion. The texts weren't written in English so I must learn Hebrew Aramaic greek Latin etc, or rely on scholarly input. If I am using scholarly research I should be able to quote it and it's specifics. If I am espousing my own views I should respect that fact the my opinions are largely misguided.
     
  6. whirlingmerc

    whirlingmerc Well-Known Member

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    It does not. His brothers wanted him to go openly and immediately with them and he didn't.

    He went at a particular time and particular way and not their time and way in order to make a point when during the festival when God made water come out of rock he would say he is the source of living water.
     
  7. Thinking Homer

    Thinking Homer Understanding and challenging different worldviews

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    As always, the most important thing about understanding scripture is the context. It is almost time for the Jewish Festival of Tabernacles in Jerusalem (one of the 7 Jewish holidays at the time), but there were Jewish leaders who are waiting to arrest and kill him. Jesus' brothers urged him to go and publicly announce himself if he truly was the Messiah.

    '"No one who wants to become a public figure acts in secret. Since you are doing these things, show yourself to the world.” For even his own brothers did not believe in him.' John 7:4-5

    Jesus refuses to publicly reveal himself at this time because the time for the crucifixion had not yet come (This would be on the Passover). Jesus tells his brothers that he would not go to the festival with them, and stayed behind in Galilee. However after his brothers left, Jesus left privately by himself to go to Jerusalem and tell the people there that he indeed was the Messiah.

    A commentary by Benson:
    His carnal relations and their friends, in whose company he did not choose to travel; were gone up, then went he also to the feast — In obedience to the divine command, and because it would give him an opportunity of honouring God, and doing good; but not openly — Not publicly, with a train of attendants, as he had often done: but as it were in secret — With as much privacy as possible; and that probably rather for fear of giving offence than of receiving injury: he would not unnecessarily provoke the government, which his being accompanied with a multitude of people would have done. And this suggests another reason for his delay. Had he taken this journey at the usual time, the multitudes who were on the road would have gathered round him, and accompanied him to Jerusalem, and at once have excited the notice, and provoked the malice and envy of his enemies; he therefore did not set out till the greater part of the people were gone, and then went up as privately as possible, neither preaching nor working miracles by the way.
     
    #27 Thinking Homer, Aug 19, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2018
  8. Jon reign

    Jon reign Member

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    I disagree with speculation in general disconnected from scholarly sources. I disagree with using English as a reference point to Jesus words and intended meanings.
     
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  9. Fool

    Fool ALL in all
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    sounds like he wasn't interested in going when they went.
     
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  10. Jon reign

    Jon reign Member

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    I am asking you to provide your sources and a brief summary of what the scholars say and who the scholars are
     
  11. robocop (actually)

    robocop (actually) Well-Known Member
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    Jesus stated that when there were two brothers, and one said he'd do something right and the other did it, the one who did it was right. Isn't Jesus then just following his own teachings?
     
  12. Faithofchristian

    Faithofchristian Well-Known Member

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    As to how do you get a lie out this ?
     
  13. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    I am wondering what part do you think is a lie.
    Before verse 6 in verse 3 it is talking about Jesus' fleshly half brothers ( his brethern JKV)
    In verse 5 at that time his fleshly ' brothers ' did Not believe in Jesus.
    In verse 6 Jesus replies to his fleshly brothers that his (Jesus) time has not yet come, but their time was always at hand.
    Those fleshly brothers (verse 7) were Not hated because they were part of that world that would come to an end in the year 70 when the Roman armies would destroy that un-faithful Jerusalem.
    Jesus and his disciples were faithful to God and Not to that corrupted Jewish system of things.
     
  14. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

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    Your theory being that Jesus spoke in Greek?

    The verse is in Greek.
    Do you disagree with speculation about what Jesus said, using the Greek as a reference point?
     
  15. Jon reign

    Jon reign Member

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    The only words in the bible that scholars suggest were Jesus own words are in Aramaic. Eloi eloi lema sabbachtani etc. While some historians have suggested the theory that Jesus spoke greek, there are no greek manuscripts that claim to be the verbatim words of Jesus. Jesus spoke Aramaic and even if he did speak greek, the scripture was not recorded from Jesus via greek edicts or sermons. As scholars are trained professionals, and they have never used these verses to philosophize on the ramifications of Jesus being a liar because of these verses, doesn't it seem odd that we should be discussing it when we have a fraction of the training necessary?
     
  16. 74x12

    74x12 Well-Known Member

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    If in doubt you can check a good website like Blueletterbible.org.

    Here is the link to the Greek word translated as "yet" in English.

    oupō
     
  17. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

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    There is a 'yet', in the Greek text.

    The KJV preserves this, one might say it's a good translation.
     
  18. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake Veteran Member

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    Y'know, I don't know what 'scholars', you're talking about, nor do I particularly care. The Apostles would have known what Jesus said, and I believe they wrote much of that in time, not later, when they compiled the texts.
     
  19. Jon reign

    Jon reign Member

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    Are you suggesting that the apostles wrote the gospels?
     
  20. Jon reign

    Jon reign Member

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    Thank you for this post. My simplified point is that subtle inflections that may be conveyed in one language are not necessarily the same in the language they are translated into. This thread began by using the verse to say that Jesus had either lied or not. My point to one member was, are there any permissible instances of lying laid out in scripture. My linguistic point was why are we using English grammar to base our ideas off of? Too much is lost in translation. Finally I asked have any biblical scholars ever suggested Jesus lied or not and have any scholars understood the verbiage of this verse as pertinent to that discussion.
     
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