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Did Jesus have to be crucified, to save the world?

Discussion in 'Christianity DIR' started by non-duality, May 12, 2005.

  1. non-duality

    non-duality Member

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    This reminds, of archaic religions where God has to be calmed down by human sacrifices. A terrible God picture!
    "Jesus has been crucified for you and you aren't ready to accept his present" is one most frequent used sentences of Christian missionaries.
    An red Indian responded to this once: "I don't feel guilty, how you have handled him. If he would have come to us, we would have taken him joyfully".

    Here is been worked by making a guilty feeling to others.
    Next is:
    The effect (crucifixion) happens before the cause (our sins) which is already very doubtful. Besides that, here is also taken the possibility away from us to take the consequences of our faults ourselves.
    If we however consider sin as a necessary growing process of the soul which is be done by unripe souls (we all have an unripe soul at least to some extend), then sin is no longer bad. Because it is a preliminary stage to the maturity.
    However what would it be like, if all our sins would be forgiven. We wouldn't reap what we sowed. A spiritual growing then would hardly be possible.

    Secondly a crucifixion is certainly gruel, however thousands of people have been murdered similarly gruel. An many of them in the name of Jesus. In no other name at all was murdered more, was tortured more and suppressed more, on this world.
    Of course Jesus is not guilty for that. Guilty are human beings which thought it's enough to declare the belief in Jesus and then not to worry about the own behaviour and it's consequences.
    So seen this dogma holds a great danger.

    How do you think about that?
     
  2. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    I guess if I were coming from where you're coming from, I'd see things pretty much the way you do. However, I don't, and so I see God in an entirely different light than you do. Since this thread is under the general heading of "Christianity," I don't want to get into the Latter-day Saint (i.e. Mormon) perspective of God's plan for us here. I'll simply say that I see God as kind and loving as opposed to one who must "be calmed down by human sacrifices." (If you'd like to explore my point of view in greater depth, please feel free to ask me about it on the Latter-day Saint forum.)

    Jesus atoned for the sins of each and every one of us. I personally don't believe that we were "born in sin," but it's a cinch that we will all sin at some time or another. In sinning, we incur a debt with God. That debt must be repaid in some way. Since no unclean thing can enter the presence of God, the debt can only be repaid by someone who is perfectly clean Himself. And that, of course, would be Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God. This in no way absolves us of the need to repent. When we enter into a covenant relationship with our Savior, we agree to honor and obey Him to the best of our abilities. In turn, He agrees to take upon Himself our sins and pay for them with His blood.

    I disagree with you that "sin is no longer bad." However, I do think that evil is a necessary component in God's plan. We could not, as you have implied, grow spiritually without opposition in all things. In order to mature spiritually, we need to be faced with both good and evil in our lives. It is by choosing the good that we progress.

    I hope you don't see all Christians as thinking that all one must do to be saved is believe in Christ. Undoubtedly, some do, but all of us don't. I don't believe it is possible to truly have faith in Christ without being faithful to Christ. I guess this is simply another way of saying that faith without works is dead. So, if you are referring to a "dead faith" as being a dangerous doctrine, I would wholeheartedly agree.

    Kathryn
     
  3. blueman

    blueman God's Warrior

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    What does the Bible say about this issue? John 3:16 states "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish and have everlasting life. Isaiah the prophet in Isaiah 53:5 prophesied that Jesus would pierced for our trangressions, and be bruised for our iniquities, the punishment that brought us peace will be upon Him and by His stripes, we will be healed (spiritually). Jesus even reminded His disciples after He appeared to them subsequent to His ressurection (Luke 24: 44-48) as to what the payment for salvation according to God's will required. :jiggy:
     
  4. blueman

    blueman God's Warrior

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    [/QUOTE]
    What does Christ say? He says I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me (John 14:6). It is true that faith without works is dead, but your works are not what saves you (Ephesians 2:8,9). It is through grace and faith that you are saved and faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. For your faith not to be dead, your behavior should reflect that you believe God is going to be true to His Word and the promises He stated therein. For example, if you have prayed to God to bless you with a house and not take any necessary steps (saving money, working, etc.) and believing that He will bring that into fruition, that's dead faith. :jiggy:
     
  5. non-duality

    non-duality Member

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    Hello Kathryn

    I personally do in the omnipresence of God. Everything is already in God's pressence. No matter if we call if clean or unclean. That's in our mind's. The illususion of being seperated to God as well. Secondly I don’t believe that someone else has to pay for my debt. That would be no justice. To come into God’s pressence we have to overcome the illusion, we are not in God’s pressence.
     
  6. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    Furthermore, there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is not another name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved."(acts 4;12)

    (Philippians 2:9) For this very reason also God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every [other] name,​

    And he is a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins, yet not for ours only but also for the whole world’s. (1 JOHN 2;2)(Matthew 20:28) Just as the Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister and to give his soul a ransom in exchange for many(1 Timothy 2:6) who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all—[this is] what is to be witnessed to at its own particular times.(Titus 2:14) who gave himself for us that he might deliver us from every sort of lawlessness and cleanse for himself a people peculiarly his own, zealous for fine works."I am the living bread that came down from heaven; if anyone eats of this bread he will live forever; and, for a fact, the bread that I shall give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world."—John 6:47, 51By this the love of God was made manifest in our case, because God sent forth his only-begotten Son into the world that we might gain life through him. The love is in this respect, not that we have loved God, but that he loved us and sent forth his Son as a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins(1 john 4;9-10)




















































































































































     
  7. non-duality

    non-duality Member

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    Besides all these bible quotes, we shold not forget, that the bible also is been written by human beings. If you believe all what stands in the bible, o.k! But I want to talk to you. I want to know your opinions.
    Live is change. Faith is live. Don’t let faith be frozen by dogmata.
    I also could take a bible quote:

    Matthew 10:5-6: These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost of Israel."
    Matthew 10:23: When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
    Matthew 15:24: He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel"


    These quotations show that the primarily confines of Jesus were about Israel and the Jews. So what? Do you see the contradictions?


    I could also take:
    Roman 8:14: because those who are led by the spirit of god are sons of God.
    Mat 5:9: blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God.


    God has more more than one son.

    I would ask: where are the daughters? But that’s an other topic.
    I would say: there is nothing more boring than quotes, quotes, quotes …
    Please write what you think!
    Thank you.
     
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