1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Did Jesus have Scribes, ie are the Gospels actual witness accounts?

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by Disciple of Jesus, Jun 2, 2015.

?

Did Jesus have Scribes?

Poll closed Sep 10, 2015.
  1. yes

    27.3%
  2. no

    72.7%
  1. Disciple of Jesus

    Disciple of Jesus Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    18,644
    Ratings:
    +1,544
    First off, I absolutely am convinced, that Jesus had Scribes, writing in Aramaic or Hebrew, and later, these were translated into Greek.

    The question is simple, did Jesus have Scribes?
     
  2. George-ananda

    George-ananda Advaita Vedanta and Spiritualist and Pantheist
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2012
    Messages:
    13,471
    Ratings:
    +4,611
    Religion:
    Advaita and Spiritualist and Pantheist
    What is your reason for thinking so? This is not part of what I have heard from historians.
     
  3. JayJayDee

    JayJayDee Avid JW Bible Student

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2012
    Messages:
    3,265
    Ratings:
    +550
    Religion:
    Jehovah's Witness
    The Christian scriptures were all written quite a while after Jesus returned to heaven. Two of the Gospel writers were eye witnesses to the events they wrote about....Matthew and John were both apostles...Mark and Luke were not. Paul wrote after his conversion, being personally chosen by the resurrected Jesus as an apostle to the nations.

    The apostle John was given the Revelation at the end of the first century. Nothing written after the close of the Bible canon can be classified as scripture, even if they are of historical significance. God chose what to include in his word.

    Since all scripture is inspired by God, it really doesn't matter that he had no scribes at the time of his ministry. (2 Tim 3:16, 17)
     
  4. Disciple of Jesus

    Disciple of Jesus Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    18,644
    Ratings:
    +1,544
    Right. It is probably assumed by many historians, that Jesu did not have Scribes. However, far from being a ''logical'' idea, it is actually sort of odd, because Jesu had consistent, followers, and He traveled and preached. This most likely, means, that some of these disciples, were actually Scribes. There would have been more than one, ,most likely. In this manner, we would probably get notations is Aramaic, Hebrew, and possibly even some other scripts.
     
    #4 Disciple of Jesus, Jun 3, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2015
  5. Rival

    Rival Mondasian
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2012
    Messages:
    10,423
    Ratings:
    +10,878
    Religion:
    בת נח
    As far as I know, the Jews were not speaking Hebrew then - their spoken language was Aramaic and they even needed translations (targums) of the Torah from (even then) ancient Hebrew and into Aramaic and Greek. So I disagree that Yeshua was speaking Hebrew. He probably spoke both Aramaic and Greek though.
     
  6. Bunyip

    Bunyip pro scapegoat

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2014
    Messages:
    10,919
    Ratings:
    +1,519
    Religion:
    Not religious
    There is no evidence that Jesus had scribes, no reference to them and no record of their works. In fact there is no eye witness account to any of the events in the the of Jesus.
     
  7. Disciple of Jesus

    Disciple of Jesus Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    18,644
    Ratings:
    +1,544
    So you say. I disagree.
     
  8. Disciple of Jesus

    Disciple of Jesus Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    18,644
    Ratings:
    +1,544
    Scribes would not have ''waited'' to take notations. I find the actual notations at the time of events, more likely.
     
    #8 Disciple of Jesus, Jun 3, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2015
  9. Bunyip

    Bunyip pro scapegoat

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2014
    Messages:
    10,919
    Ratings:
    +1,519
    Religion:
    Not religious
    Well ok. Do you have an example? Historians have been searching for one for more than 1500 years, they haven't claimed to have found one.
     
  10. Rival

    Rival Mondasian
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2012
    Messages:
    10,423
    Ratings:
    +10,878
    Religion:
    בת נח
    Most folks in the UK have Latin, Hebrew or Greek names, a lot from the Bible. None of my friends happen to be ancient Hebrews. My real name is Latin but I've never lived in Ancient Rome or modern Italy. The Jews gave their children specific names with specific meanings as I'm sure you know. It doesn't change anything if Yeshua's name is Hebrew or Aramaic derived. It certainly doesn't tell us which language he spoke and I'll grant you that it may or may not have been Aramaic but I always thought (and had been taught) that it was. If we went with the name used in the New Testament, we'd use Iesous anyway :p
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. Disciple of Jesus

    Disciple of Jesus Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    18,644
    Ratings:
    +1,544
    My point was, I don't believe that they had 'forgotten' Hebrew, in the time of Jesu, that makes no sense to me. Remember, depending on the Scribe, you could have had, Aramaic, Hebrew, some other scripts, and even Greek.
     
  12. Neo Deist

    Neo Deist Th.D. & D.Div. h.c.

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2012
    Messages:
    3,383
    Ratings:
    +2,119
    Religion:
    Deism
    None of the gospel writers were eyewitnesses, according to a majority of scholars who have done extensive research on the subject. After weighing the evidence for and against, I agree with the majority. Since I am a deist and neutral (not really caring one way or another) I looked into it objectively and came to the same conclusion. If anything, the gospels were written by 3rd parties decades after the fact, which make them hearsay at best. That would explain why the resurrection story differs so greatly between the 4 books. Yes the writers were probably aides to actual eyewitnesses, but that does not make them or their writings an eyewitness account.

    There are those in the minority with a different opinion. They WANT it to be a certain way despite any evidence to the contrary, because they have a position that they are trying to support or defend, based on their religious affiliations. Unfortunately, that is not an objective approach.
     
  13. Rival

    Rival Mondasian
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2012
    Messages:
    10,423
    Ratings:
    +10,878
    Religion:
    בת נח
    Greek was the language of the day and I can quite easily see everything being at least written in Greek, as the Gospels and epistles were. The common folk certainly didn't use Hebrew on a daily basis and needed targums.


    The targumim (singular: "targum", Hebrew: תרגום‎) were spoken paraphrases, explanations and expansions of the Jewish scriptures that a Rabbi would give in the common language of the listeners, which during the time of this practice was commonly, but not exclusively, Aramaic. This had become necessary near the end of the last century before the Christian era, as the common language was in transition and Hebrew was used for little more than schooling and worship.[1] Eventually it became necessary to give explanations and paraphrases in the common language after the Hebrew scripture was read. The noun Targum is derived from early semitic quadriliteral root 'trgm', and the term 'Targummanu' refers to "translator".[2] It occurs in the Hebrew Bible in Ezra 4:18 "The document which you sent us has been read in translation (Aramaic—'mepares') before me".[2] Besides denoting the translations of the bible, the term Targum also denote the oral rendering of Bible lections in synagogue,[2] while the translator of the Bible was simply called as hammeturgem (he who translates). Other than the meaning "translate" the verb Tirgem also means "to explain".[2] The word Targum refers to "translation" and argumentation or "explanation".[2]


    Also, the seventy writing the Torah in Greek and the earliest copies we have of the Jewish Scriptures are the Septuagint, i.e, Greek versions. The Apostles quote the Septuagint in their epistles and Gospels, they never quote the Hebrew texts.


    :)
     
  14. DoubtingNate

    DoubtingNate Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2015
    Messages:
    45
    Ratings:
    +29
    Religion:
    Non
    Most or all of these documents are known forgeries, ie, written in someone else's name.

    Jesus did not have scribes following him around, all 4 gospels have anonymous authors, the more recent ones building on the older ones. Mark is derived from the Q text and earlier church writings that are lost to us. Both matthew and Luke borrow from Q and Mark. John is out of left field and written much later. The more recent the texts are dated, the more colorful claims about Jesus.

    For example, there is no resurrection in Mark; it was added later by editors. By the time you get to John, Jesus is said to have pre-existed with God at the creation of the universe, and his miracles become more and more outlandish.
     
  15. JayJayDee

    JayJayDee Avid JW Bible Student

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2012
    Messages:
    3,265
    Ratings:
    +550
    Religion:
    Jehovah's Witness
    But your assumption has no basis in scripture. On what do you base your speculation? Do you doubt that the Creator has the ability to inspire humans to write down what he wanted on record? He did not dictate the scriptures word for word, but inspired the writers to record the events in their own words. In the four gospel accounts each included details that the others omit. Put them all together and you have one story.

    So what language was used? Was Hebrew still spoken?

    "The strongest evidence...favoring the view that Hebrew continued as a living language down into the first century of the Common Era is found in the references to the Hebrew language in the Christian Greek Scriptures. (Joh 5:2;19:13, 17, 20; 20:16; Re 9:11; 16:16) While many scholars hold that the term “Hebrew” in these references should instead read “Aramaic,” there is good reason to believe that the term actually applies to the Hebrew language...
    When the physician Luke says that Paul spoke to the people of Jerusalem in “the Hebrew language,” it seems unlikely that he meant thereby the Aramaic or Syrian language. (Ac 21:40;22:2; compare 26:14.) Since the Hebrew Scriptures earlier distinguished between Aramaic(Syrian) and “the Jews’ language” (2Ki 18:26) and since the first-century Jewish historian Josephus, considering this passage of the Bible, speaks of “Aramaic” and “Hebrew” as distinct tongues (Jewish Antiquities, X, 8 [i, 2]), there seems to be no reason for the writers of the Christian Greek Scriptures to have said “Hebrew” if they meant Aramaic or Syrian."

    Hebrew, II — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY


    "What language did Jesus speak? On this question there is considerable difference of opinion among scholars. However, concerning languages used in Palestine when Jesus Christ was on earth, Professor G. Ernest Wright states: “Various languages were undoubtedly to be heard on the streets of the major cities. Greek and Aramaic were evidently the common tongues, and most of the urban peoples could probably understand both even in such ‘modern’ or ‘western’ cities as Caesarea and Samaria where Greek was the more common. Roman soldiers and officials might be heard conversing in Latin, while orthodox Jews may well have spoken a late variety of Hebrew with one another, a language that we know to have been neither classical Hebrew nor Aramaic, despite its similarities to both.” Commenting further, on the language spoken by Jesus Christ, Professor Wright says: “The language spoken by Jesus has been much debated. We have no certain way of knowing whether he could speak Greek or Latin, but in his teaching ministry he regularly used either Aramaic or the highly Aramaized popular Hebrew. When Paul addressed the mob in the Temple, it is said that he spoke Hebrew (Acts 21:40). Scholars generally have taken this to mean Aramaic, but it is quite possible that a popular Hebrew was then the common tongue among the Jews.”—Biblical Archaeology, 1962, p. 243."

    Aramaic — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. Disciple of Jesus

    Disciple of Jesus Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    18,644
    Ratings:
    +1,544
    Huh? Anyways, Scribes would have no reason to ''wait'' to record anything. That doesn't even make sense.
    As to the language thing, what's your point.
    I think they would have probably spoken Aramaic, and Hebrew, and possibly some people, Greek, etc. What are you trying to tell me, that I didn't already say.
     
  17. JayJayDee

    JayJayDee Avid JW Bible Student

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2012
    Messages:
    3,265
    Ratings:
    +550
    Religion:
    Jehovah's Witness
    Funny, but God has never sided with the majority. Popular opinion is not a good gauge for what is correct. Look what happened to Jesus and his apostles.

    God's enemy will make sure that the majority are on the wrong road. (Matt 7:13, 14)
     
  18. JayJayDee

    JayJayDee Avid JW Bible Student

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2012
    Messages:
    3,265
    Ratings:
    +550
    Religion:
    Jehovah's Witness
    My point was that no "scribes" are mentioned (as they are in the Hebrew Scriptures) for the recording of the works of Jesus at the time he was conducting his ministry.
     
  19. paarsurrey

    paarsurrey Veteran Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2012
    Messages:
    14,689
    Ratings:
    +1,373
    I agree with you. The inner evidence of the NT Bible confirms this.
    Regards
     
  20. Popcorn

    Popcorn What is it?

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2015
    Messages:
    100
    Ratings:
    +22
    Religion:
    Christian
    What is "inner evidence"?
     
Loading...