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Featured Did Jesus Fulfill All The Messianic Prophecies?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Rival, Sep 28, 2017.

  1. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    *It is possible that Spartacus was not in possession of the actual tablets of Moses during production of the 1956 Hollywood movie the 10 Commandments
     
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  2. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    The dew of the wind of the mundane mountain. Nice.

    You do yourself a disservice by trying to couch your Christianity in Judaism.
     
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  3. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    The thing that you've done here, is take only the part of Jewish tradition that bolsters your perspective, not that part that disagrees with it. In the Jewish tradition Messiah the son of Joseph fights a war and is killed. Jesus fought no wars. He also descends patrilineally from Joseph, the son of Jacob.

    Cherry-picking is a Christian tradition done daily in many parts of the world.
     
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  4. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    Why not just pick any place where a messiah is mentioned. Branch of Jesse, son of David, that type of stuff.
     
  5. Enoch07

    Enoch07 It's all a sick freaking joke.
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    This is a debate forum. Not an opinion forum. If you assert an idea you are expected to back it up with something. Or else we are all just monkeys flinging poo at each other.

    So citation? Anyone? Facts? References? Something?
     
  6. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    I have not asserted an idea. You asked for a list of messianic prophecies. I offered a method of finding messianic prophecies that would be agreeable to all.
     
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  7. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    'Cherry-picking is a Jewish tradition done daily in many parts of the world.' :rolleyes:

    There are many version of the Messiah Ben Joseph idea, be more precise to which version you're citing, please. :innocent:
    This is what i've done, with the specific word 'Messiah' in the Tanakh; yet no one wants to debate the facts, they'd rather cherry pick easy arguments. :confused:
     
  8. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    All these Jewish sources agree with what I've said and none of them fit with Jesus.

    I've disproved your claim long ago by pointing out that contextually it may be a scribal error. One's appearance and form are not anointed. And if it's not a scribal error, it just makes it possesive, ie. 'so is his destruction [ie. degree of destruction] from man is his appearance".

    The MT version is correct.
     
  9. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    In my opinion:

    The prophecy about Armilus fits 'jesus' as a false Hellenized version of the messiah created by (John, Paul and Simon the stone (petros)) in Rome, whilst standing next to the true Messiah Yeshua ben Joseph in the Synoptic Gospels.
    It might be; yet to be logical we should question all possibilities either way, and considering the vast amount of additional prophetic texts that then interlink with it, personally would say it makes more sense to question Yeshua's fulfillment of Isaiah 53.
    That isn't correct, it could be 'I Anointed' as Martin Hengel translated it as:

    Isaiah 52:14 'Just as there were many who were astonished at him - so I (God) have anointed his appearance, unlike human semblance, and his form unlike any mortal.' - Martin Hengel

    Even if you were to dismiss Isaiah 53; Jeremiah 25 and Zechariah 11 happened because of Yeshua coming, the Diaspora and 2nd temple destruction, happened as he and the prophets relayed...

    Unfortunately the Rabbinic thinking seems to only want that the Messiah is only nice to Judah, and anything that happens that is detrimental they ignore.

    In my opinion.
    :innocent:
     
  10. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    In which case, the "prophecy" about Armilus -due to the similarity between him and Jesus - does not lend itself to interpret the Messian from Joseph as being Jesus.

    Of course you "cherry-picked" my response without the contextual proof I bring, to prove it can't be.

    And like I said, the appearance and form of a person is not anointed. Anointing represents being elevated to a position of greatness. The person of a person is anointed, not his appearance. It makes no sense. It's like saying I smelled your eyesight.

    Jeremiah 25 is about the Babylonian Exile.
    Zechariah 11 is about the Roman Exile.
    None of them have anything to do with Jesus.

    Yes, you have made an unsubstantiated opinion here.
     
  11. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    In my opinion:

    In many prophetic understandings there are two different characters, the true Messiah and a false one along side it...

    We have the Synoptic Gospels with Yeshua's teachings in alignment with Hebraic customs, and then we have John, Paul and Simon the stone (petros) creating the false 'jesus' character.

    The false Messiah jesus is clearly in Rome, created by the stone (petros) as we find in the Apocalypse of Zerubbabel, etc.
    That is because we're not looking at the Hebrew, which could be read totally differently, which is why we had the thread previously asking for a better translation...

    Personally read it: 'For my Messiah appears as a man, and his form as the son of man.'...

    Which makes sense when in Isaiah 52:10 it says 'Yeshuat Elohienu', which could mean he is an Elohim (Avatar) appearing in human form.
    This is why explained it carefully to begin, Jeremiah 25:33-37 is a Diaspora, and Destruction of Israel after the return from the Babylonian Exile (Jeremiah 25:1-14).
    Rashi and others comment that Zechariah 11 is about the 2nd Temple Destruction...

    Within Zechariah 11 this states it happened because 30 pieces of silver were paid, and put in the Potters field in the House of Israel, there is only one possibility for that fulfillment.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  12. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    Again. The question was whether the messiah who descends from Joseph found in Jewish sources can refer to Jesus. You brought the Midrash Zerubabel which talks about Armilus. Because of the many parallels between Armilus and Jesus, it's likely that the author intended Armilus to refer to Jesus. That means that Jesus is not the other figure in the story, the messiah. Therefore Jesus =/= messiah son of Joseph.

    Who's "we" white man? I looked it up in the DSS myself.

    Your translation is not consistent with the Hebrew grammar in either the DSS or the MT.

     
  13. Shiranui117

    Shiranui117 Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
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    ...What? What the actual crap?

    Do you know one dang word of any of the languages you pretend to have credible knowledge in? Even the basics? Have you even bothered to look anything at all up on Wiktionary, for God's sake? What's next, you're going to tell me that "Mazel tov" means "My stomach tastes like fish"?

    I mean dude, even a middle schooler could tell you that "Messiah" means "anointed one". At this point I REALLY have to wonder what your agenda is. Because it sure ain't sharing proper linguistic knowledge.
     
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  14. Rival

    Rival Noachide
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    His agenda is that he's a troll and he deserves to be ignored and treated like one.
     
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  15. Magus

    Magus Active Member

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    Here is my thesis on that subject.

    Phenomena occurs with the letter M at the front of words , for example Mars and Ares are linguistically the same, but are cognate with Hebrew מְרִי ( MRI ) but it's the same רִיב (RIB) ' Revolt Rebel ' . Using that Logic with the word Messiah , then מָשִׁיחַ would be שִׂיחַ meaning ' Mediator, reflection, Sing and musing ' and the word 'Muse ' means 'to ponder, to seek or wonder ' , from Gk 'Mousa meaning 'Music or Song' and also the English word 'Music', related to the PIE root *Ais- ' to wish, to desire ' thus the words 'Seek and Ask.

    The word שִׂיחָה in the Septuagint is rendered μού ( Mou ) and μοῦσ᾽ (Mous ) means Music, also written μουσικός ( Mousikos ) , sounds awfully like Mashiyach ( Messiah)

    The Arabic word for Music 'mūsīqā' ultimately from Ancient Greek μουσική (mousikḗ).

    Psalms 119:97
    MEM. O how love I thy law! it is my meditation(שִׂיחָה) all the day.
    שִׂיחַ

    Letters interchange, ' SIH - SDH - SDK - SDI - SIK - STK - STS - ZDK

    שִׁדָּה * shiddah = Musical Instrument (Ecclesiastes 2:8 )
    מַשָּׂא * Massa = Music ( 1 Ch 15:22)
    Μοῦσαι * Mousai ( Muses )

    Mediation and Metronome are also related to these words

    מִדּה * Middah - Measure
    מְשׂוּרָה * Mesurah ( sounds like the word Measure )
    שׁוּר * Shuwr - Sing ( Ezekiel 27:25)
    שִׁיר * Shiyr - Song
    Σειρήν * Sirens - Singers in Gk mythology.
    שׁוּר (Shuwr) is used in Isaiah 57:9 to mean ' Anoint oneself '

    1Sa 16:13
    Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren

    קֶרֶן (Qeren) - Horn , but also 'musical instrument' and in Greek, κέρας (Keras ), Horn, but also musical instrument'

    1 Kings 1:39
    Zadok the priest took an horn of oil(Shemen) out of the tabernacle, and anointed (Mused) Solomon and they blew the trumpet

    συμφωνία
    Sym(ph)onia > Symonia > שֶׁמֶן (Shemen )
    * Very common between Greek and Hebrew

    1 Kings 1:39
    Zadok the priest took the horn of Music out of the tabernacle and they muse Solomon by blowing the trumpet
    1Sa 16:13
    Then Samuel took the horn of Music , and mused him in the midst of his brethren

    Gospel of Philip
    "Messiah" has two meanings, both "the Christ" and "the measured.. the mused".
    gnosis.org/naghamm/gop.html
     
  16. Shiranui117

    Shiranui117 Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
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    They're mythologically very similar, but just looking at the words themselves tells you that they're linguistically not the same. The Greek Ares is probably of Proto-Indo-European origin, and is most likely related to the Ionic word "Are", meaning "bane" or "ruin". It shares a cognate with a Sanskrit word meaning "malevolence". However, the linguistic trail for "Mars" goes cold if we trace it any further back than Etruscan or maybe Proto-Italic.

    Already off-base here. Greek and Latin are Indo-European languages, whereas Hebrew is an Afro-Asiatic language. Completely different language families with separate origins, and entirely separate etymologies unless one word was directly borrowed from another language family, in which case this is easy to trace.

    Except that שִׂיחַ has nothing to do with singing. It just means talking.

    Plus, by this logic, I could say that "slaughter" is the same thing as "laughter", and therefore treat the two words as one and the same. Or I could treat "risk" and "brisk" as being the same and say that "brisk" means "to quickly take a chance". Your train of thought makes no sense.

    And this is just completely wrong.
    "Ask" is derived from "*h₂eys-" and "seek" is derived from "*seh₂g-", again two completely different etymologies.

    Wrong. The word "μου" means "me". Again, you demonstrate a lack of knowledge concerning even basic words in Greek or Hebrew.

    The Hebrew word "Messiah" is rendered in the Septuagint as "Christos". Which is why Jesus, who we Christians call the Messiah, is called Jesus CHRIST (AKA: Jesus the ANOINTED). Just compare the Septuagint of 2 Chronicles 6:42 versus the Masoretic Text of the same passage, if you can read it. Now ask yourself, if "musikos" shared an etymology with Hebrew "Mashiach", then why on earth would Greek-speakers translate this word back into their own language using a word with a completely separate etymology?
    Congratulations, you just invented a word that doesn't actually exist.
    Yeah, and Chinese (shin) sounds like the English word "shin" so there HAS to be a connection there, right?. :rolleyes:

    (Note: There isn't. Not in the slightest.)

    And that would be because of a deliberate borrowing from Greek into Arabic which we can etymologically trace. If Hebrew "Messiah" was a loanword from Greek, Hebrew-speakers would never have altered the word's definition so far from the original meaning. This doesn't happen in any other loanwords.

    Show me one credible linguist who asserts this.

    Except your source doesn't say "the mused". That's your own interpolation.
     
    #76 Shiranui117, Sep 29, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2017
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  17. Tumah

    Tumah Veteran Member

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    Only at this point...?
     
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  18. Magus

    Magus Active Member

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    All you have to do is replace the word Hebrew with the more accurate word, 'Phoenician' whom Jews literally believe, never existed.

    Cádiz
    - One of the oldest city in western Europe
    - Founded by Phoenicians ( from Tyre)

    Carthage
    - Founded by Phoenicians

    Here is the Ancient Etruscan Script

    [​IMG]

    They were dozens of 'Phoenician' colonies all around the Mediterranean and the Latin and Greek Alphabet
    is an evolved Phoenician script, as is your English Alphabet.

    You gonna deny the ENTIRE history of the Phoenicians?

    I have found cognates for hundreds of Hebrew words with European languages.

    אֶרֶץ = ἔραζε ' Earth
    וֹשָׁב = ἵζω ' Sit / Seat
    גִּלָּיוֹן = κύλινδρος 'Kulindoros' a roll , or in English , Cylinder.
    חָם = καῦμα 'Kauma' Heat
    רוּחַ = ῥέω 'Ruh' Gush / flow
    פַּדֶּנָֽה אֲרָם = πεδίον ἁρμός 'Pedion armou - plain between junction
    מִצְרַיִם = μέση ῥόοιν ; Mesrooin - Between two branches of the Nile
    מוֹרִיָּה = μορία ' Moriah' - Sacred Olives
    גְּבִיר = κύριος ' Kurio' - Lord
    אֲרַם נַהֲרַיִם = ῥόοιν ἁρμός ' Rooi armou - Joining of two rivers
    יֶרַח (yehrah) 'month or moon' , in Gk 'ὥρα' (Ora) (Period of time ), PIE *yeh (year )
    שָׁמַיִם (Shamayim) Gk 'σημεῖον' (Semeion) cognate with ZEN
    אֶפְעֶה ('eph`eh) (Serpent ) Gk ὄφις ( Ophis )
    תְּאוֹ (teho ) תּוֹר (Towr) Gk Taurus
    חָרוּץ (charuwts ) Gk χρυσίου ( Chursio ) ( Gold )
    קֹדֶשׁ (Qodesh) ἁγίζω (Agizo ) ( holy)

    מְשׂוּרָה 'Mesuwrah' ( Measure)
    עַיִןקֶרַח 'Anthrax'
    מלךקרת > LKQRT > RKKLS > her-kleez /uh-KILL-eez > Hercules/Achilles
    אָפִיק ( Apiq ) means Stream of Water ( Aqua / Water)
    >πηγάζω ( Pegazo ) 'Stream of Water) ' Pegasus '
    Tyro/Troy צֹר (Phoenician Walled City )
    Ilion/ Ἴλιον אַלּוֹן ( Oak trees)
    יַעַר (Ya'ar) (Wood) Doru ( Stem of a Tree)
    פַּךְ (Pak ) (Water Container) Pyx (πύξος) 'Bottle) Pyxis (Vessel) ' Box'
    לָשׁוֹן (lashon) (Tongue) γλῶσσάν GLASSAN ( Tongue)
    סֵפֶר - CPR > PPR ( Papyrus / Bible / Paper ) * πάπυρος
    סֶלַע ( Cela) Πέλλα ( Pella ) * Rock
    בְּאֵר ( be·ār) φρέαρ ( Phrear ). ( Fountain)
    צדק ( Zdk) δίκη (Dikh) (set right)
    שׁוּע יְהוֹ (Joshua) εὐσεβής (Eusebus) ' Pious
    בְּאֵר שֶׁבַע Beersheba φρέαρ-σέβω (Phrear Seba) ( Well of Oaths)

    - Kettle / Cup
    סֵפֶל ( Cephel ) * Pot
    κοτύλη ( Kotulh ) * bowl
    כּוֹס ( Kowk) * Cup

    חָלָב ( Galab) , Glakt / Lactose ( Milk)
    'בֹּר' Bor . ( Pure)
    צֹאן (Tson) Ktenos * Flocks
    יָדַע דֵּעַ ' Yada * to know , εἰδῶ 'Eido /οἶδα 'Oida * to know
    עַיִן (Ayin ) ὄψιν ( Ayin ). ' appearance'



    This is mostly my own work and i will write an entire secular Lexicon .
     
    #78 Magus, Sep 29, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2017
  19. Magus

    Magus Active Member

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    DNA Evidence

    First DNA from ancient Phoenician shows European ancestry | Daily Mail Online

    First DNA from ancient Phoenician shows European ancestry: 2,500-year-old skeleton could rewrite history of human migration

    Phoenicians are known as the creators of the first alphabet, and inhabited the coastal cities, Tyre, Sidon, Byblos and Arwad, in what is now Lebanon and southern Syria, Their influence expanded across the Mediterranean and west to the Iberian Peninsula where they established settlements and trading posts.
     
  20. Shiranui117

    Shiranui117 Pronounced Shee-ra-noo-ee
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    I mean I've had it on my mind for a long time now.
     
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